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Intro

[music]

Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome to my brand new podcast Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest, who will help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. To kick things off, this week, we're talking all about mental health, talking about it online, how well it's being discussed currently, as well as the role of research in the future of mental health treatment.

Joining me this week is Charly Cox. Charly is a poet, producer and mental health activist. After first publishing one of her poems on Instagram in early 2017, she went on to author She Must Be Mad, which quickly became the best selling poetry debut of 2018, followed by Validate Me, her second book, landing her a coveted spot on Forbes 30 Under 30 list. As an ambassador for MQ Mental Health Research, she continues to destigmatise mental health conditions and remains a relatable voice for young women through an honest online presence.

Charly Cox: All we’re missing is a big plate of pasta.

Gemma Styles: I know, some nice food to have this chat over, that's the only thing missing from this chat.

Charly Cox: Mmm. Cheesy cheesy pasta.

Gemma Styles: Nothing that's going to crunch into a microphone.

Charly Cox: No, just slurp. *slurping noise*

discussion

[music fades into conversation]

Gemma Styles: Okay, so even the fact that we're having this chat, and we've got you on a podcast to talk about mental health, it begs the question, how in general, do you feel now about being someone who is known for mental health, or known for talking about mental health?

Charly Cox: It's really odd. I don't think it will ever not be strange. I remember when I first started talking about my sad, bad brain. And my mum was so worried about it. She was like, you know, what if like, future employers see this, or I'm worried that this is going to hinder you at some point in your career or in your life. And my immediate response was, you know, why would I want to work for anyone that thinks poorly of me because of my illness that I can't, you know, it's not my fault. And then with that comes up, you know, people that say you're super brave, and I've never really felt brave. But now, I think the main thing that worries me is how much it leans on my attractiveness. I worry that men are frightened of me, because, you know, you Google my name, and everything that comes up is, I just want to die all the time. And that's not actually a wholly accurate representation of me. But it is also good in that I do find that friends, more so than they ever were, are so open in conversation with me now. And the vulnerability from others has built such beautiful, interesting foundations, in our friendships and relationships that I'm so, so grateful for. Charlie Craggs who's amazing, just one of my favourite people in the world. We were on a panel together once and she said this, do you know, why did you become an activist? And her response was, I don't want to be an activist. I didn't choose to be an activist, I physically have to be an activist to validate my presence on this planet. And I kind of feel that way about talking about mental health and mental illness, I kind of wish that I didn't have to do it all the time, because it is emotionally exhausting. But at the same time, I do think it's so necessary, because the conversations that are going on at the moment, I just don't think are quite full enough. Does that make sense?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, that definitely makes a lot of sense. I think, I guess what I was kind of meaning is then do you ever start to feel a bit boxed in by being sort of categorised in that way now?

Charly Cox: Yeah, so I always joke that Mental Health Awareness Week is my least favourite week of the year, because I sort of get wheeled out like one of those old school TVs on a trolley on a rainy day at school. Yeah, I do find that difficult because it's not, you know, I have bipolar. I am not bipolar, if you will. And it does frighten me that because so much of my work is about that… but the point of me talking about it all the time is to normalise it and say, you know, what we once thought of, or what we still really think is a frightening, debilitating, like she's insane, absolutely bonkers, off her head illness like bipolar. You know, I live a perfectly functional life. And if I didn't tell you that I had it, you wouldn't know. I don't think.

Gemma Styles: No, I mean, I can attest to that as someone who knows you.

Charly Cox: Thanks! So you mean that one minute, I'm not really really happy and talking really fast, and the next minute I'm crying. I'm really sad? You got me on a good day kid! How about you? Because you you're honest online? How does does it make you? Do you ever feel vulnerable? Do you ever feel frightened that people can mould your own stories into their own?

Gemma Styles: Um, I wouldn't say vulnerable, particularly. I don't know, I feel like once you start talking about something like mental health, I think one of the biggest things is you, or I have done, feel pressure to keep talking about it. Which is not necessarily a bad thing. But then if you're anything like me, you will get into a whole new kind of internal dialogue about, you know, people are expecting me to talk about this, but am I the person who should be talking about this? Am I taking up the space of somebody else? Have I suffered badly enough to have a platform to be able to talk about this? You know, am I just a big fraud?

Charly Cox: I hate that so much. I think it's a very female thing. That feeling of is my illness even bad enough for it to be categorised in the same- Like how ridiculous it's all relative. And we all have those thoughts. I try so hard not to have them. Or I try so hard to talk myself down from them. But yeah, your anxiety is your anxiety, you know, nobody is is greater or worse, because it's not yours. Like that's not comparable. They're not comparable things. Again, which is something that I am quite frightened with the conversations that we're having around mental health and mental illness at the moment, don't distinguish enough, don't distinguish the difference between mental health and mental illness. Everybody has mental health, not everyone has a mental illness. And I think, you know, like you just said about your almost like, imposter syndrome, you couldn't possibly be an imposter, in the most human part of you what you're talking about?

Gemma Styles: So, you've said a couple of things, actually, so far already, that makes me want to ask you about how you feel about the language surrounding mental health at the moment. So for example, you just have made the distinction between mental health and mental illness, you said you have bipolar, not that you are bipolar?

Charly Cox: Yeah. Do you know what I think it's rubbish. I think it's really rubbish. And it's really dangerous. I don't think we are arming, particularly young people, with the right rhetoric that will be helpful to grow emotionally intelligent, and mentally stable - whatever that means and, you know, however, you deem that - adults because, you know, things like, anxiety and depression, and why they are the most talked about, of the mental illnesses, is because everyone can relate to that, you know, everybody, at some point has felt nervous or stressed. So you can understand anxiety, and everybody's been, you know, felt sadness before, so you can understand depression. Whereas, you know, the less spoken about illnesses like bipolar, like schizophrenia, like disassociative disorders, aren't because they're, they're so different from those things that you can't, like, people don't quite have the same empathy. Because, you know, you can't place that feeling from your own body. But within that, you know, because the words anxiety and depression are being thrown around, and I do think they're being thrown around so much now that they're losing the weight of their meaning. And I think that, you know, as, as people you're, you know, you have to feel sadness you everybody will feel sadness, everybody will feel grief. You know, things will stress you out. Those feelings aren't that necessarily of anxiety and depression, those are very normal and important emotions that help us function and put things into perspective. And you know, that those were almost like doing the opposite of what we think we're doing by destigmatising mental health, but we're actually then shaming really normal healthy feelings, even though they're difficult and they're quite intense into you know, suggesting that they themselves are an illness or they need solving or supporting and that that really frightens me that really, really frightens me. I worry tremendously about young people who you know, are seeing celebrities, and people in the media come forward and saying I've suffered with anxiety or I've suffered with depression. And because there's never really much explanation or much detail after that the statement, you know, you're then taking on your own idea or meaning of that, and then potentially self diagnosing yourself , which just leads, you know, you don't you don't need to do that. You don't need to do that. And selfishly, I also think, no, you know, I can I have to sit on a waiting list for three months. And now everyone's going, because they're thinking, Oh, no, is there something clinically wrong with me? Instead of, you know, learning mechanisms and learning support systems that, you know, keep your mental health in, in good tact? As opposed to mental illness? Is this making sense? I don't know if it's making sense.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it does it make sense to me. And then I get confused, because I think it's equally a really difficult thing. Because I feel like this is a narrative that the media has really picked up as well to sort of say, Oh, well, you know, all these young people think they've got problems these days. And oh, everyone's got mental health issues. And actually, I agree a lot with what you're saying in terms of, as well as just, you know, using the words more, we need to make sure that people understand what they mean, and understand the distinction between having emotions and being able to process your emotions, and when that becomes a problem. However though, then when I think about myself, I know that when I had depression, and needed to go to a doctor and didn't go to a doctor for some time, part of the way that I kind of explained that away to myself was, well, you know, this is a, it's logical that I'm sad, because there were some sad things happening in my life at the time. So whenever anybody sort of tried to say to me, I'm not quite sure that you're okay right now. To me, in my head, I was sort of like, well, it makes sense that I'm sad. Of course, I'm sad. This is a sad thing that's happening. So I don't know. I mean, on the other hand, I still come back round and agree with your point that I think people understanding depression and understanding anxiety, as well, as you know, all of the other conditions that don't get quite as much airtime. I think, going beyond and making sure that people understand what they really mean in your life is important as well

Charly Cox: I think, as you've pointed out, you know, that illustrates that so perfectly is it has to be a really nuanced conversation. It's not an easy, nor basic, one dimensional thing, there are so many different facets to it, and so many different problems that I think are getting bigger and creating their own ones within it, because of the lack of education and understanding. But I think, yeah, that breaks my heart. Knowing that and hearing you say that you were able to almost like, convince yourself you were fine. When you clearly weren't. Not that you were fine, but that what you were going through is perfectly normal, which meant you had to deal with it on your own.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it was like… I knew that I didn't feel fine. I maybe didn't realise that went beyond that, I guess, at the time.

Charly Cox: Do you mind if I ask when you went to the doctor, did they say this is clearly depression?

Gemma Styles: Yes, because by the time… Well, no, actually, let me think back properly. So I had been to a doctor in earlier years. And they had talked mostly about anxiety, basically. So you know, I knew that I had some issues. But it hadn't ever got to the point where I was sort of on medication, for example, but then by the time that it got bad enough, and I went back to a doctor to talk about depression, I was really very badly depressed to the point where a five minute conversation a doctor would have been like, okay, we need to do something about this. It got to got to quite a serious point before then, I actually went to speak to somebody about that.

Charly Cox: You know, it is, it's mad. I mean, you are my friend. And you know, we have these conversations with each other all the time in fact you’re one of the few people in my life, even though I have so many amazing emotionally intelligent friends, but I felt like when I message you on a bad day, I’ve felt like you really get it, you really understand me, I feel really, I feel really seen by you. Oh I’m such a flirt. But also just hearing you say what you've just said is just, it's, it's so validating, it's so validating to that experience, it just, I just got goosebumps. And yeah that's the point, you know, these conversations is not like all about, you know, go for a run and drink more water and get plenty of sleep. And yeah, like happiness. Like, it's like, we don't need to be sold happiness, what we need is communion, and community. And, you know, that safe, wholesome space inside of us that, you know, we can lend out to other people, like you do for me on a regular basis. And that I think is, well I hope, will start to become a more centred piece of the conversation around mental health. It's, it is about talking. And there is something just so beautiful, and so affirming when you hear someone you love, or someone you have a lot of respect for, whether you know they’re your friends, family, or someone on social media or wherever, when they share their truth, even if it's really hard, and it's difficult, or it's you know, it's not particularly pretty or nice to hear, there is still such a wonderful exchange in that experience of being able to see somebody else's strength. And, and that's inspiring and, and hopeful. And that's something we can all do, without having to learn, you know, fancy words or understand diagnostics or, you know, know how to support someone through a panic attack, well before any of that. Just being vulnerable on a day to day basis with people around you. I think that is, that will be the best and the easiest catalyst for change in all of this, I really hope I really, really hope.

Gemma Styles: I think talking about it before you get to the stage of mental illness, possibly, depending on what it is, is quite relevant to the role of research in mental health as well, which was something that I wanted to talk to you about in your role as MQ Mental Health Ambassador.

Charly Cox: That's me! That's me. That is the most proud role of my life. I cannot tell you what- well I will, I'm going to try. But I find it really hard to express in a way that doesn't sound like I'm being superfluous, or even just a bit ridiculous, but how much I love MQ and what they do. They are the best mental health research charity in the UK. And it's, you know, it's all well and good, we are talking about stigma bashing and, you know, putting things into conversations more openly and more freely. But really, if we don't understand why these things are happening, you know, are people born with mental illnesses, is something triggered later in life… until we really get to the, the foundation of what mental illness is, which we still don't really know, it's crazy, that the one part of our body that, you know, if you were to ask a child, what are the two most important parts of your body and they probably say, your brain and your heart. We don't know even like 30% as much about our brain as we do about our heart. And that's so peculiar, that this has been such an underfunded part of science and part of research for such a long time. And that gives me hope, that gives me hope well beyond you know, having inspiring conversations and hearing people talk about their own experiences, but knowing that there are people that are dedicated to understanding why I think that's bloody amazing.

Gemma Styles: I think the why, to me, has always felt like quite an important one. And, I mean, I'm someone who quite enjoys the kind of sciency elements to things anyway, and like to understand why something’s happening. So I dunno, I feel like for a mental health charity to be based on research, was something that I hadn't come across before because I mean, and understandably, so many mental health charities are looking at offering support and trying to help people once they are already in, you know, a crisis situation or they're already suffering. But it is it does feel quite frustrating not understanding why something's happened to you. And I think, you know, if we can get to a position with research, where, you know, if even a proportion of people don't have to have those problems in the first place, because we understand why they happen, and we understand how to prevent them. The dream!

Charly Cox: The absolute dream, and yeah, it's, I mean, I find on a daily basis, the way I best manage my anxiety, the only way that I can really properly deal with it, is by being as logical and sciency as humanly possible with myself. And those those inner conversations, aren't you going, it's fine, you're safe, let's think of serene thoughts. I'm thinking in my head, okay, this is a chemical reaction in your body, it's not your fault. What's happening now isn't, you know, karma or the universe trying to scream at you and say, You're not worthy of good things and all these racing thoughts are punishment for something you've done. This is chemicals in my brain, in my body that are whirring around in a way that isn't usual or ordinary. And that's why I feel strange. And once I have that in my head, it totally calms me down. Because it takes away that that guilt. My anxiety makes me feel so guilty about just having it all the time.

Gemma Styles: I think that is a level of the why, the kind of not, not as deep a level as why has it happened in the first place, but the fact that you know that it is chemicals in your brain that are making you feel a certain way, I feel like why is such a comforting thing to have.

Charly Cox: So comforting. And just so important. You know, I was saying to a friend the other day, it is so peculiar to me that I know who I am. But I don't know why I am. And that, that I find really tough. If other than living with bipolar, you know, well, before any of that, this feeling of how can I properly understand who I am? If I don't know why I have this thing? Why is it me? It's so hard as a person to not truly understand why you got, you know, the broken brain. And I felt like, not because you want something to blame, but because you just want to understand it and think about how much softer you would be on yourself if you knew that the reason why was just so totally out of your control. The difference between if you break your leg, because you know that you did something really stupid, and you decided to do something really stupid, the difference in that, and then you know, you being hit by a car and breaking your leg. You know, in those situations, you know which time you're going to be kinder to yourself. It's when you weren’t the person that made the decision to put yourself in harm's way, somebody, something, an exterior force jumps in, and then you know, then you get sympathy from other people. And then people feel it. Because they understand why.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, it's the kind of metaphor that people like to use, or maybe not metaphor, but the thing people like to say about mental health is, you know, why isn't it treated the same as physical health? And I think, yeah, I think that is a helpful way to think about it sometimes. I know, even thinking about, you know, taking medication for mental health was something I kind of didn't want to do for a long time. And then even once I had would sort of have these rebellious, stupid, little moments in my head where I was sort of like, Well, why should I have to? Why should I have to? This is very unfair. Why is this on me? But again, you kind of have to try and get back to some kind of logic in your head. And what I would always keep saying to myself was, you know, if you were diabetic, and there was something wrong with the chemicals in your body and you needed to take medicine to sort those chemicals out, you’d do that wouldn't you and that wouldn't be your fault. So just take the medicine, it’s all gonna be fine.

Charly Cox: I'm glad that you have this same condescending inner voice that I have when I talk to myself like come on now Charly, let’s just sit down and have a little chat with ourselves shall we?

Gemma Styles: Let's use some logic shall we?

Charly Cox: Do we need a little reminder here of what's really going on? But on your, on that point as well about how Wouldn't it be better if people viewed mental health the same way they viewed physical health, I cannot think of anything that affects me more physically than my mental illness, you know, whether that is medication, or you know, mood cycles, that mean I gain a lot of weight, or I lose a lot of weight, that's a very physical change in my body, it's the sweating, it's the dizziness, it's, you know, the pain in your hands when you're panicking. Or when you're rife with anxiety, or, you know, it's physically not being able to leave your bed when you're depressed. And it's, you know, it's the pain in your shoulders and your jaw and your neck when you know that you're like, chomping down and clenching things, because something's not right. Here, all of those things are so physical, so so physical, and, again, it's something that we just don't understand enough about yet to, I think, to have adequate sympathy for those people who are going through it, because it's, you know, there are so many things that I look back on now that as a child, and as a teenager I was struggling with so desperately, but had just accepted as normal, or that I was really just a bit weird, that I now know, are symptoms of anxiety. Yeah, I could, I was almost I always thought so weird that I've always got this shooting pains in my hands. And oh, and the fact that I'm, like, incredibly constipated, and I've always got a stomach ache, oh I don't know why… Because you were anxious! You know, that is your body, like, trying to like, screw up into a ball, you know, and show you that there's mental unrest, and even just little things like that, that is a piece of information, that is a piece of knowledge. Because it's a validating experience, that makes my life infinitely more manageable. Now I know those things. So imagine what it would be like, if, if we knew more than that, you know, and there's so much more that we should know. And we could know. Yeah, I get very excited about it.

Gemma Styles: I'm gonna put you on the spot here a little bit. And jump back to what we were saying before, but on the topic of, you know, people hearing the words, but not actually ever really being told what they mean… if you could - this is probably a quite an unfair thing to ask you to do. But if you could give a kind of overview of what bipolar disorder is like for somebody who doesn't really know what bipolar is? Could you give it a go?

Charly Cox: Yes. So I think everyone's experience is totally unique to them. But there, from what I understand, there are three types of bipolar, which is bipolar one, bipolar two, and rapid cycling. I have bipolar two with elements of rapid cycling. And it does come in cycles. So it's, it's never like quite on the nose, but it's around about there, every three months, a new cycle begins. And that could be a depressive cycle. And that's, you know, suicidal ideation. It's not eating, it's, you know, sleeping in the daytime, it's drinking too much. It's bad. Bad bad. Or it could be like a lull of a depressive episode, which is that kind of general malaise of depression, where you kind of just wish that you were having a sit down cry in the shower. But you're not quite there yet. This is almost like you know, that you're about to get pushed and minor inconveniences are really starting to set you off. But the other side of it is mania. And mania is really incredible, right? That's really fascinating. People with bipolar one experience a greater level of mania. And that can come into play as having really distorted views about the world and what the world is saying to you or asking of you. It's hearing voices, it's hallucinations, whether they're audio or visual. And it's, it's quite, it's quite extreme, and I would imagine incredibly difficult to live with. But then for me, I find endlessly fascinating, in that it presents itself in really obscure ways. It's being a bit more sexually deviant. It's spending lots of money it's having little feeling of consequence and you know, you just feel very reckless, you're very, very reckless, which to be around can either be really fun [laughs] or really exhausting. And you are just, you know, I don't need to sleep very much I can sleep for three hours. Don't really need to eat very much. And I just have this, creative energy that I don't usually have, you do feel like you're a superhero, and you feel like you've got this incredible superpower of being able to do it all and using your brain in a different way. And I feel totally invincible. On the other side of that, it is also very lonely, because it's exhausting. You know, if you think about all that energy that your body has suddenly discovered, God knows where it's mustered from. I don't understand that. And then with that exhaustion, you become really irritable, and quite anxious. But on a day to day basis - I don't think about my bipolar. I, it does not come into my head on a day to day basis. It's not something that, you know, I wake up in the morning, and, you know, I think this misconception of bipolar being something where it's mood swings, that really upsets me, because it's not, you know, some people's cycles are much longer, some people's cycles are much shorter, you know, a bipolar cycle can be a week long, it could be a month long, it could be a year long, mine tend to be three months. And I think that part of the problem is that with things like bipolar, with schizophrenia, and these are disorders that because of the way that they have been sensationalised to us, within movies or within our media, we do sort of have- and even I do, you have that image of somebody in a straitjacket, or you have that image of you know, somebody being locked away in their own filth, you know, like Miss Havisham style like sitting in her own wedding dress, you know, for hundreds of years. And that's so not what it is, at all. Sometimes I kind of wish it was because then I think maybe I would take it more seriously, and other people would take it more seriously.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. I mean, that leads me into something else I wanted to ask you about, which was an article that you wrote recently, in response to the cover of Vogue Portugal, which I will briefly describe for anyone who hasn't seen it. It was an issue that Vogue Portugal did, I believe it had four different covers for what they called the madness issue. And one of those covers in particular was an image, which was an editorial image that had been set up and shot by photographers in a fashion kind of style of a young woman in quite a quite a big bare room, in a bathtub naked, being washed by two women dressed as nurses. I will let you go on to kind of summarise why that is such a problem and how that kind of representation is dangerous.

Charly Cox: I don't think I've ever been triggered by anything before. And I've never really understood that term was I've always thought that it's just a bit demeaning of feeling to suggest someone's been triggered. I don't know, I've never been that fond of it. But that is the only way that I can explain what my reaction to seeing that cover was it immediately threw me back into a horrid, horrid space. And and seeing that image, I thought, if you are struggling, or if there is something wrong, and you've been thinking about, maybe you should do something about that, is that going to make you go, Oh, no, I don't want to end up there. I don't want to end up in something like that. Which I know, I think that's what it would have made me feel when I was younger seeing that. And I said, it was, it's a really horrible line to have written and it was, it still feels horrible now even prefacing to say something or give an explanation before I say it, but it was that within that article, I said, you know, if I had seen this at a different period of my life, whether that been four months ago, my last depressive cycle or whether if that been when I was a teenager, I do think that cover would have had the potential for me to have killed myself. The damage that that cover would have done to so so so many impressionable young women, it scares me really, really scares me. And it all it took was for someone to say, We messed up, we are sorry, we do care about you. And, you know, having then made some actions that you know that that prove that point. And it's the same with all media outlets. It's you know what, it’s so, so hard to still see on the Daily Mail or, you know, whatever awful outlet that is choosing to spin it. But, you know, the images that people now print of lovely Caroline Flack, you know, you can't say that you're being supportive of mental health and furthering the conversation and making sure people feel accepted when we still we still really villainize people, we really villainize mental illness. When actually, for me, mental illness isn't bad things, it's actually been the one thing in my life that has shown me how incredibly resilient my body is, and how amazing I can be and how I've learned so many different tools and coping mechanisms and how, you know, I spend periods of time literally like retraining the language in my brain to be kinder to myself, and it makes me more empathetic. And it makes me more understanding to my friends and think it makes me, generally speaking, a kinder person, a much kinder person, because I, I've felt that total overwhelm of having a mental illness and it’s the same with all of my friends, all the people that I know that have have either been diagnosed with something or they've had bouts of depression or anxiety. They are the kindest, most wonderful, strong, brilliant, creative, funny people I know. And all of that has come from that experience with an illness, or poor mental health. And I think that is also something that, you know, we never really focus on, we never really focus on the fact that it is kind of remarkable that any of us can survive our own brains when they're hell bent on wanting us to not like ourselves very much or wanting us dead. And yet still, we know what an incredible feat that we still wake up every morning. I think that's amazing. That's not villainous. That's not dirty. That's not frightening. To me, that's really quite incredible.

Q&A

[music]

Gemma Styles: Every week, my guest and I will be answering your questions. And the first one comes in from Emma…

Do you find being an introvert or an extrovert is important to inform how we look after our mental health? And how can we tell which we are?

Charly Cox: Wow, what a brilliant question. That's such a, I'd never thought about that before. That's such a good point. Yeah, I do think that newlyweds, I think, and that we deal with things differently, depending on whether you're interested or extroverted. I mean, you know, from my experience, [sarcasm] I'm quite the wallflower! Definitely quite extroverted. And that has meant that you know, me talking about my experiences comes very easily and almost naturally to me. Whereas I know for other people who are introverted, the thought of talking about their problems, or, you know, opening up in any capacity must be incredibly frightening, and really, really very difficult. So I do, I do think that that is an important thing to factor in, how to know which and what you do with that. I think that that's quite a, I think that's quite a hard one to answer. In the sense that I don't want to generalise…

Gemma Styles: The way that I've heard it before, to kind of boil it down to the basics is, if you are an introvert, then when you spend time with a big group of people, for example, then afterwards, you feel quite tired, and like you need to recharge and be on your own for a while, which is me, or if you're extroverted, then being in that big group of people gives you a lot of energy and you feel better afterwards. I would count myself as an introvert. But it's not that I don't enjoy hanging out with the group of people, it's just afterwards, I do need to recharge a bit. So I feel like that probably would play into looking after your mental health.

Charly Cox: That's so interesting what you just said and that makes so much sense. And that I know if I was going to look after you or if I wanted to give you some advice or help because I knew you weren't feeling great. My idea of that would be sending you a care package of you know, nice, soothing, calming, lovely things that you can do on your own. Whereas my idea of self care for myself, or the thing that would really help me if I was being sad would be to go and have dinner with all of my friends. Yeah. I mean, I feel like that makes a lot of sense. I feel like we just had a quite a nice moment of therapy. I'd never thought about that before.

Gemma Styles: Great question, Emma!

Charly Cox: Yeah, great question that's made my brain go all fizzy. I like that.

Gemma Styles: We'll have to carry that one on after. Okay. So next question is from Sophie, who asks…

Do you find that sleep affects your mental health?

Charly Cox: [sing song tone] Massively. I've been in denial about this for a really long time like a petulant teenager. And it's like, I'm not tired. I'm not going to bed. And my mum's been saying to me for years, like it's incredible how much nicer you are to be around when you have good sleeping patterns. I’ve been like, you don't know anything. You're just trying to ruin my life, which is not fair. She's not. She's a wonderful woman that cares about me very deeply. Um, but yeah, I noticed a huge difference in particularly my anxiety, I am so much more anxious if I have had too many late nights. Or I've had broken sleep, then yeah, my anxiety tends to be through the roof. And the way that I tried, I don't know why. But that's one part of my mental health, where I feel really embarrassed that I just, gosh, I just need I need to sleep guys, I need proper sleep. It's a really basic human need. But the way I try and put it in my head to myself is that in the same way that when you're sick, and your body isn't repairing itself, until you're asleep, you know, that's when your body actually starts fighting the illness and repairing itself. It's not when you're awake and you're moving, it's when you're preserving all of your energy in one still place. And that's the same with your brain, it's, you know, you need, we need to switch off, you can't constantly be on, you need a bit of a reset, and that is what sleep does. And sleep, for me, it's that classic cliche of, you know, sleep on it, things will be better in the morning. And, you know, it really so often is true. And I do think that's because whilst you've been asleep, and you've been restful, your brain has had chance to actually repair itself a bit from from the previous day's ridiculousness. So yes, I highly recommend having a good sleeping pattern. It's not about being a morning person. It's not about being a night owl. I think you know when you function best, I love writing at night, which means I like to sleep in. Am I going to be made to feel guilty about that? No. Do I want to be a billion dollar CEO? Sure, that would be nice. But really, that would mean I couldn't write late at night and wake up late in the morning. So no I don't want that. Yeah, it's knowing your rhythm and knowing your time and then making the most of that. And now that I know these things about myself, and I've been honest with myself about my weird teenage petulance around sleep, I definitely think it's, it makes an extra no difference to my mental illness because Lord knows what does! But my mental health is so much better now I get a good night's sleep.

Gemma Styles: Big Question from Millie.

What are the biggest lessons you've learned in terms of mental health during your years?

Charly Cox: Two things. Firstly, thing, is the power of communion and community and leaning on people. How that is not a shameful thing at all. It's actually like the most life changing transformative opportunity you could give yourself when you're not feeling great is to tell someone about it. And making sure that they're in a space where they can receive that kind of information is really important, in both giving or receiving difficult conversations and difficult news. As you know, it takes up a lot of space for both people. But there have been so many times where things have been so like incomprehensibly bleak that I just felt like I couldn't do it. I couldn't do it anymore. I didn't. I just can't get my head around being a person and giving that to someone else. Like saying to someone, This feels so heavy. Can you hold it for me for a moment? Is is exactly the kind of rest you need. And within that, the other thing that I've learned is that nobody when they're depressed or they're anxious, wants an answer. They just want you to listen. Nobody wants to hear You're going to be fine. Everything's okay. And you know, none of that you're like, no it's not, my brains on fire, it's not going to be okay. Everything's not fine. I just want you to validate my existence as a human being that’s struggling and I want you to hear me out. Because chances are when people are talking about their problems, it might also be the first time they've heard that out loud. And that is a really big moment, really big moment to help them then develop tools to put that into perspective and, and support themselves through it. So yes, listen, don't answer, because there is no answer. Just, you know, listen and be there and you know, send Zac Efron gifs or, you know, whatever it is that you're into. So yes, I think the two biggest ones are that talking to someone is never a mistake. It's always the kindest, most brilliant thing you can do for yourself, is letting someone, I don't think it's about letting someone in, I think it's about physically handing over the part of you that feels too heavy, for them to hold for you, whilst you build yourself back up. And then you can take it back again. And in return doing that for other people, and validating their experience, not telling them that, you know, not trying to fix it, not trying to answer it, but just being there, being present. And I think that, that's all we can really do for friends who are struggling or going through a difficult time is, is just showing your presence, whether that is sending them a text in the morning saying that you love them or, you know, sending them something in the post or sending them a photo of something, you know, that does so much more than you trying to fix them out of their anxiety or fix them out of their depression. It's just showing up.

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Gemma Styles: Thank you for those excellent questions. Remember, if you want to get in touch with us, or have any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.

Recommendations

Gemma Styles: Before you go, I've got three things that I ask every guest. And that's if listeners want to learn more or find out more about what we've been talking about, can you give us something to read, something to listen to, and something to watch?

Charly Cox: Yes, with pleasure. Listen is, bear with me on this one. Adele, Right As Rain. It is the perfect, I think, song that when you are feeling, whether you're feeling depressed, or you're feeling anxious, it's an incredibly validating song of that. But it's quite upbeat. So it doesn't make you feel melancholy and, you know, sort of wistfully looking out of windows as the rain pours in, you know, if you think of all the men that have ever wronged you, just what I do on a daily basis. But every time I feel sad, I listen to that song. And it gives me this feeling of incredible power and strength in not being okay. And that actually, you know, when you're at your worst, and when things really, you know, are very difficult, the person that you become in that and through that is so much more interesting and more impressive than actually when you're at your best and you're doing really well.

Gemma Styles: I love that as a listen recommendation.

Charly Cox: And yeah, I would like to prescribe that to everyone. Because it's just it's- it’s Adele. Can't not love Adele. Blasphemy. Watch. I watched this a couple of years ago. And I don't think it's quite complete yet, because it's it was filmed about 20 years ago, and it is of the experience of a white, rich, man. So how helpful that is not, you know, not hugely. But it's Stephen Fry's documentary it’s called The Secret Life of the Manic Depressive. And it was the first thing in fact, it's the only thing I've ever watched informatively about bipolar, where I felt like I walked away not being frightened of, of what I have. But feeling but just just knowing that like, understanding things and and learning about it from you know, someone as brilliant as Stephen Fry, who is just such a talented wordsmith in conversation, listen, I just I really recommend it. I really think that without having watched that documentary, when I had done, things for me I think would have been a lot more difficult to process and understand. And it really gave me proper insight into what it is that I now have to navigate for the rest of my sweet, sweet little life.

Gemma Styles: That is a great one. So that was Stephen Fry’s The Secret Life of a Manic Depressive. And then to finish up, what would you recommend that we read Charly Cox?

Charly Cox: Um, one of my books? Maybe?

Gemma Styles: One? Both? I'll read them out for you. So, Charly's poetry books are called She Must Be Mad and Validate Me and are available in all good book retail places.

Charly Cox: Support your local bookstore and order from them. Because that's very important at the moment. Yes, you should read my books. I don't know, that sounds a bit big headed, doesn't it? Oh, yeah. Go read mine. Why not? I wrote them spent some time on them.

Gemma Styles: Well, that's why I said that for you!

Charly Cox: Thank you! And they both detail in I hope, a manageable way, my experiences, just being a woman with a sad brain sometimes. And sometimes you need that, sometimes you just need to know that other people have also felt that same pain that you're feeling. Alternatively, I will, I will send you the link to this, because I can't think of the name of it off the top of my head right now. But there is an article on the Guardian by Hannah Jane Parkinson think that's her name. I really hope I haven't messed that up. I think it's Hannah Jane Parkinson. And she talks about why the conversation around mental health is so broken and flawed and what it means for people with mental illnesses, how much damage we're doing to those who live with a mental illness by not having the correct conversation about mental health. And I just I shouted Yes at every line I thought, wow. Wow, she gets it. What a powerful, powerful piece.

Outro

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Gemma Styles: Thank you so much for listening to this first episode of Good Influence. And huge thanks to Charly for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, please do take a moment to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player, or wherever you're listening. And if you're feeling generous, rate and review too. It's really appreciated and helps others find the podcast. See you next week.