Gemma Styles

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S01E07 Transcript: Venetia La Manna on Sustainable Fashion

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intro

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Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who will help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answer some of your questions. This week we're talking about sustainable fashion; how our habits might need to change, the most sustainable type of outfit and the importance of remembering who made our clothes. Joining me this week is Venetia La Manna. Venetia is a broadcaster and fair fashion campaigner. Earlier this year she co-founded Remember Who Made Them, a digital campaign and podcast series with aims to re-energise a new solidarity economy in fashion. Describing herself as a ‘recovering hypocrite,’ she uses her own history of fast fashion consumption and ongoing education to teach other people about the inner workings of the fashion industry and how to create a more sustainable wardrobe. Describing herself as a ‘recovering hypocrite,’ she uses her own history of fast fashion consumption and ongoing education to teach other people about the inner workings of the fashion industry and how to create a more sustainable wardrobe.

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Gemma Styles: I think this is the first time I've sat and recorded one of these wearing jeans? And it’s not going well for me so far!

Venetia La Manna: [laughs] Jeans for- in 2020. I'm wearing jeans as well, and it feels like a big step.

Gemma Styles: It's like you've dressed up a bit for the day.

Venetia La Manna: Yeah, exactly. I mean, this is a pyjama top, but…

Gemma Styles: I was about to ask you is that pyjama top because I really like it.

Venetia La Manna: Yeah, it's pyjamas!

Gemma Styles: I would also be really here for the energy if you were just recording a podcast in your pyjamas because that's exactly what I would like to do. I might do that anyway.

Venetia La Manna: [both laughing] Well, I thought I'd balance it with some jeans. Because I can get away with a pyjama top if I’m wearing jeans as well.

Gemma Styles: It is a great top.

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discussion

Gemma Styles: If you could start I guess by just telling us a little bit about yourself, and how sustainable fashion came to be something that you're known for?

Venetia La Manna: So I am- I actually started my career in TV. And I was behind the camera for a long while. And then I stepped in front of the camera. And at the time, I was a huge lover of fast fashion. And I never wanted to be seen in the same outfit twice. In fact, I thought as a TV presenter, I couldn't be seen in the same outfit twice. And then I started hosting digital content and was like, gosh, this is exciting. And so I started making YouTube videos, started a podcast. And I was kind of on YouTube where I was talking about my life as a vegan, and the kind of things that I was eating and cooking. And you know how the internet loves to, you know, ask people ask people, their intentions, call them out that kind of thing. Yeah. Someone on the internet was like, hey, great that you're eating plants, but you're wearing a lot of fast fashion. And I was like, accurate. And they said you should really do some research. And so off I popped, went off and did some research. And I actually couldn't believe what I had been supporting. And I couldn't, I couldn't, I didn't want to be a part of anymore. And so I just decided to stop buying fast fashion. And I just went on a bit of a clothing detox, continued to learn and started sharing some of the things that I was learning on Instagram, started a little hashtag called #OOOTD, which was meant as a little middle finger up to the #OOTD hashtag, which is outfit of the day. OOOTD was old outfit of the day. So basically to encourage outfit repeating, which I know you’re into.

Gemma Styles: Oh yep.

Venetia La Manna: And also and also, like not a- anti newness, basically, because I felt like I couldn't keep up with that either. And it just kind of went from there. So I wish I wish I was someone who had been, you know, an advocate for all things fair fashion for a long time. But that's frankly not the truth. I was obsessed with all of those fast fashion brands that we’re familiar with. And I spent a lot of time in those stores on those sites and buying those clothes.

Gemma Styles: I mean, I feel like that is one of the things that makes me enjoy hearing your conversations about this kind of topic because I feel like that is one of the things that people struggle with a little bit to feel like, I don't know, that it's that it's too difficult to get these things right or that you know, you've messed up so badly or, you know, how do you change your habits. So I like hearing you talk about the fact that you know, it's not- you didn't come out of the womb wearing a you know, thrifted, bamboo, [laughing] anything. I feel like hearing you talk actually I'm kind of skipping over a point because I feel like it's something I already know. But if people aren't familiar already with the term ‘fast fashion’. What is that?

Venetia La Manna: Fast fashion is basically a super quick turnaround form of fashion. So it goes from being designed to being made in usually just a matter of weeks. And the reason why it's fairly problematic is because fashion is a really, really polluting industry. It's one of the top most polluting industries in the world, it requires so much energy, transportation, water, the lot, so much. And also, it's really ethically it's awful, especially if it is fast fashion, but luxury fashion is by no means exempt. Because generally speaking, fast fashion is now incredibly cheap. And the people at the top of these companies that we're so familiar with are making millions, in fact billions, are some of the richest people in the world and the people making the clothes are earning, on average, about $21 a month. So if you think of your kind of average fashion CEO, probably they're probably worth a couple of billion, and then their workers are getting paid $20 a month on average. So there's a real discrepancy between- there's a real wage gap basically. So I kind of think about it in terms of absolute, absolutely the environmental impact, but more than ever, the human impact. And I also, you know, it is really important for me to say that just because a brand is more expensive, or it's luxury or it's considered luxury, does not make it ethical, or sustainable. And yeah, I mean, I'm sure people are kind of getting more familiar with sustainable and green marketing from various fashion brands. It feels like they're all doing it. But unfortunately, there's a lot of greenwashing happening. It's a really, really complicated industry. And it's a really, really damaging and oppressive industry too.

Gemma Styles: When you say greenwashing, what do you mean by that?

Venetia La Manna: So greenwashing is basically when- so in terms of fashion, it's when a fashion company says that they're doing something environmentally friendly. So for example, this line of clothing is sourced responsibly, it's made from let's say, 20% organic cotton. Organic cotton is okay, it's definitely less water intensive than normal cotton. However, more often than not, this is coming, if this is coming from a big fast fashion brand, great that they're using some recycled cotton, or some fair trade cotton or some organic cotton, but how much are their workers being paid? And this is the thing that I'm really really focused on now. I started getting into slow fashion because I was really concerned about the planet. And I still am like, this is one of the biggest- I mean, this is why we're doing this podcast, partly right? Like this is one of the biggest concerns of our time. But now more and more my energy and my focus is on garment workers, because it's such an unfair industry and and nothing can be sustainable in my eyes unless, unless it is also ethical.

Gemma Styles: I think this is one of the things. So it's kind of- when you think about the environmental impacts, I think it's easier for people to imagine the negative environmental impacts of say, buying a piece of clothing, whether it's cheap clothing, fast fashion, expensive clothing. You can imagine buying something material, throwing it away. And it's sitting in a pile in landfill. And you can kind of, it's quite easy to imagine why that's a problem. But as you said, there are lots more human impacts and human implications. And I think that's something we've definitely seen more in the media this year with- I mean, one of these days, I will get through recording an episode and not refer to the pandemic, but that's not going to be today. This year, we've definitely seen in the media, um, the kind of impact of a lot of these big companies cancelling their orders and not paying the garment workers for clothes that have already been produced, and they've just decided, you know, my shops are closed, I can't sell them. I'm not gonna pay you. I think that's definitely put more of a mainstream media focus maybe on, on garment workers and actually forcing people to not just think about, you know, where do my clothes end up? But where did they come from in the first place?

Venetia La Manna: Absolutely. And there was also the scandal in Leicester that happened this year, there are lots of clothing factories in Leicester. And there was a slave labour scandal that came out earlier in the summer about how some of these workers are only getting paid three pounds 50 an hour which is way below the living wage. So yes, these these stories are, you know, on the ethical side of things definitely coming up more and more however, so, there are so many more of them that we don't hear about and I think you're right. I think it's because we feel very far removed from the human cost of this crisis, because I think it is a crisis. And it's much easier for us to- because we're familiar with our own habits, you know, like, I know how I've donated clothes in the past, I know how I've ordered stuff online before, it hasn't been quite right. I've scrumpled it up, I've put it back on, back in the bag to be returned, it might have some kind of foundation stain on it. And it's easier to think like, okay, is that fast fashion brand really going to receive that piece of- 15 pound top, say- are they going to receive that 15 pound top back, are they going to remove that foundation stain? Are they going to steam it? Are they then going to hang it up and put it back on the rail? No, probably not, they're probably going to throw it away, because it's cheaper for them to do that. Whereas I can't, I couldn't quite grasp the ethical side of things so much. It's only now that I do because I've spoken to garment workers and their unions lots for work that I've been doing this year. But I was much more kind of, I think I was more aware of- and this is how I kind of got into ethical living, right. It's like what am I own, where my own habits are, whether that's eating, whether that's travel, like what am I doing as an individual? And that's the original reason why I started my shopping habits. But I also really want to say that like, it's really important for me to say that I don't want to put too much onus on individuals for their own shopping habits. Like of course, it's easy for me to stop buying fast fashion and to buy from charity shops. I have a lot of privilege. I have time privilege. I have money privilege, I have access, I’m also straight sized, which means it's easier for me to find secondhand clothes. But how wonderful would it be? If collectively, our governments put in legislation, which meant that any person could shop anywhere and know that what they were buying was ethical and sustainable? Knew that the people making it had fair living wages? Right, like that's the goal?

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Venetia La Manna: It's not, I don't think the goal is about having like, my- currently now my goal is to sure, make people more more aware. Absolutely. And the more of us who can be collectively more aware, the more we create a demand. And the more we can make collective change. But equally I want the big dogs to listen, I want the billionaire CEOs to do something and to use their power. I want governments to listen and to pass the right legislation. That's more my focus. So if anyone is listening, and they're feeling like Oh God, I, you know, I went on ASOS on the weekend and I bought lots of clothes, because I was feeling quite down that day, my mental health is bad. I'm not here to make you feel guilty. That's not my role. I'm here to maybe make you think and then think more about like, hang on. Why isn't the legislation in place? That's, that's what I want.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, I think all of these conversations definitely do make you think more, they've definitely made me think more. And it's even even stuff like that you mentioned before the idea of kind of when you send things back, I just hadn't thought about and it's that kind of practice where, you know, when you're buying online, which the vast majority of anything that I've bought in the past, I don't know, five years, at least like is always online, I just, I'm bad at shopping in shops, I don't enjoy it. But I would kind of sometimes do that thing where you order two sizes, because you're not sure what size you need, and then send the other one back. But I'd never thought that, you know, that's that it wasn't going to end up being sold again. I think it's just, you know, framing things that you don't think about and that level of awareness is really important, I think.

Venetia La Manna: Yeah. And I just I also used to think, you know, when I went into shops and your physical shops and how much product was on a rail, and then you see the sale rails, and there's still a lot of product there. And I just was thinking what happens to all of that clothing does not get sold? And also let's not forget that the majority of the clothing that we give to charity shops, and this is really hard to swallow, the majority of it doesn't get sold. And majority of it either ends up as landfill, which is really polluting and harm for our planet. Or it gets sent to developing countries who- and it's not their job to deal with our waste. So not only are we you know, polluting our own landfills, we're also polluting the countries and the landscapes of developing nations who- and this isn't their issue, the fast fashion issue isn't, they're not creating that demand. That's us. So we've got this kind of excess, and kind of hangover from colonialism as well, because we're sending clothes to countries that we in the Global North once colonised. There's an incredible organisation called dead white man's clothes and on Instagram they're @theorispresent and I'd really really recommend following their work and, and because they’re doing incredible things. But that's also something that's really important for us to to bear in mind and that kind of links to overconsumption. As a general - if you're someone who can't, doesn't have access to secondhand shops or feels that their only option is fast fashion, fine. Buy less of it. Because the one of the main issues here is overconsumption.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think it's, it's such a nuanced conversation. And everyone, like in different areas, as you say, like has different levels of privilege and different levels of access to different kinds of shopping. I think looping back to what you just said about the kind of charity shopping and where our clothing ends up. That's something that I've thought about more recently, even just this year, to be honest, it's kind of… In the past, when I've like, I've never been someone who's, you know, throwing clothes in the bin, I've always had a you know, like, if there's clothes that don't fit you anymore, or you just don't wear anymore, but they're still you know, in good condition you give them to a charity shop. But I kind of haven't thought about it enough until quite recently that I like I don't, didn't really shop in charity shops. So it's that kind of thing and I think a lot of people would probably be the same where you, you think, Oh, well, I'll donate these clothes to charity, and that's me doing something good. But then you're not shopping in charity shops. So surely you end up with vastly more clothes in charity shops than, that are going to get sold and kind of haven't thought about then what happens to the rest of them.

Venetia La Manna: Exactly. And that's as a result of our kind of the amount that we've been shopping, it's just completely out of hand. You know, fast fashion has completely disrupted our consumption when it comes to clothing, you know, it's not, we didn't used to shop in this way, we didn't used to buy this much we didn't used to be able to get a piece of clothing to our door within three clicks, pay for it, you know, on a monthly basis for a while, and then have it delivered the next day. Like that's not how we used to live. And I think as a result of a lot of people being at home or this year, they've been doing clear outs, you know, I'm the same at most weekends, I'm organising my wardrobe, folding up my clothes, I'm seeing you know what I've got kicking around. And I've been, I've walked past many charity shops, many of which are closed, and you just see bags of clothes left on the ground, you know, spilling out all of this clothing. And again, this isn't me attacking individuals for doing a clear out and hoping to do a good thing because charity shops are wonderful. And they do such an important work. And they make it easier for us to also shop secondhand. But it's more like, how have the fast fashion, how, I want the onus to be on fast fashion brands. Like they push this newness on us all the time. It's relentless. They pay influencers and celebrities so much money to push this newness on us all the time. So we feel like in order to feel good, and to look good, and to keep up. We have to buy so much. And that's having this huge impact everywhere else.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. Um, I want to loop back. Because you did mention this briefly before. And we've obviously just continued. I do want to make sure we talk about the kind of inequity in being able to shop secondhand and being able to shop sustainably because aside from the things you mentioned, like time privilege, I know there's a big conversation to be had around, um, plus size shopping and how it's so much more difficult in general to shop, you know, secondhand, vintage or sustainable brands when the options just aren't always there for plus size people. And I think that’s, I'm sure that's a conversation that must carry over into, you know, other intersections as well. For example, you know, if you're someone in the disability community and you have a very particular need that you need to fill with your clothes, I'd imagine that's nigh on impossible to buy secondhand. Like, there are a lot of considerations here that you know, not not everyone’s starting from a level playing field here, I'd say.

Venetia La Manna: Absolutely. And if you are someone who has straight size privilege, I'd really encourage you to leave the larger sized clothes in the secondhand stores when you see them because it's hard enough for people who are, who aren't straight size to shop secondhand already without us buying bigger clothes for the oversized look or to customise, right? Like ‘I’ll crop this, no worries’. So that's something that's important to mind, to bear in mind, but also for me like I, and this is also a privilege, I get contacted by lots of fashion brands regularly who you know, for different reasons. And if they're not size inclusive, then that is a conversation I'm constantly having, because it shouldn't be the, the onus isn't on plus size people to make this space more inclusive. The onus- I see the onus is on me, but how can I make? How can I use my privilege to make all of these sustainable brands, so called sustainable brands, more inclusive? So this can be a movement for everyone, because ultimately, we can't have a sustainable fashion revolution without it being inclusive for everyone. I'd really recommend Lydia Morrow. She does brilliant work on this. Because I'm also aware that like, I don't want to be taking up too much space, when I'm talking about this as a straight size person, I'd really recommend Lydia Morrow. Aja Barber, Stephanie Yeboah is talking, has spoken about it recently on her blog, which is brilliant. Because I just don't think it's on- and why should like if you, if you if you can't, if you don't feel like the space is inclusive for you. I just don't think that onus is on you. And you know, of course, there are issues like if you're a small fashion business, there are practical reasons why you can't be size inclusive for everyone, I totally understand that. But then, you know, if you if you are if you're a business that's constantly making new clothes for straight size people, I think you probably can make clothes that are more size inclusive.

Gemma Styles: This is a question that I think comes up a lot. And I have seen you talk about this recently, whereby, you know, you start talking about sustainable fashion. And understandably, one of the first questions that people ask is, well, then where should I be shopping? What brands should I be buying from? Which I think is a very understandable question, because you know, especially if you're looking at particular shops that maybe aren't doing things right, and you think we should be avoiding? I think it's sort of human nature to then say, Okay, well, what, what do I buy instead? Whereas I think a lot of the conversation that we're having now is that it's not, it's not always, you know, buy, buy something new, but don't buy it from these bad places, buy something new from one of these good brands. But the conversation is still buy something new. And that's still a problem right?

Venetia La Manna: Yeah, it's really important that you picked up on that. And thank you for raising it, because it's also quite a contentious issue. And it's something that I think when I talk about online, I get, I ruffle a lot of feathers, because people want to be given the answers. And the thing is, is that I don't think there are necessarily that- it that I don't think there are necessarily that kind of clear cut answers. And especially as I'm aware of all the privileges that I have, right? So it's all very well for me to say, go and support this small ethical business, but that might be completely unaffordable, or inaccessible for someone. And I'd much rather give people the agency, because in the same way that I have to figure out how to make potentially a more ethical decision when it comes to their consumption, I'd like to give them that agency. But more than anything, and this is something that I really want to focus on. And it's the thing that ruffled feathers, when I highlight a brand that's done something really unethical, they haven't paid their garment workers, whatever it is. I'm not trying to get the person reading that post to say, to think, Okay, well, I need to go and spend money over there instead. I'd rather like them to be aware of this issue that's happening. And maybe instead think about how they can put their time instead of money to supporting the cause. That's kind of what I'm getting at. Because I also, I don't want to be judgmental about someone's personal shopping consumption. And the reality is like, I've been a so called ethical consumer for quite a few years now. What did that do for garment workers this year? Absolutely nothing. And I'm not the only one, right? There are a lot of ethical consumers so called ethical consumers. What has that done for government workers? Nothing. So I think it's this balance, right? And I'm not saying you can't do both because I am absolutely not gonna be shopping from fast fashion brands anytime soon because I'm so passionate about this. You can do both. You can buy less, buy better. You stick to your kind of, the things that align with you ethically. Make the changes in the aspects of your life that you feel you can make changes and that looks different for everyone. But you can also think about the wider picture, the wider issue, think about calling out brands, holding them accountable, signing petitions, lobbying governments, all of that stuff as well. It’s this balance, I think, for me. You might be someone who feels that you can only do one or the other, I'm not in a position to judge that. My, I, my aim is to have more people thinking about the wider system, because that's how we get garment workers fair living wages. That's how we get sustainable ethical options that are inclusive for everyone.

Gemma Styles: I think it's really important to think about it that way as well, to be honest, because it does feel like something that can be really impossible and really overwhelming. And to be honest, I feel like that's a theme with a lot of these things where, you're talking about ways to be more sustainable, it feels like there's never gonna be enough you can do. But I think that's why it's important to kind of, and that's why I like the way that you've, you know, you talk about, we need to look at the systems in place, as opposed to somebody saying, you know, I can't afford to necessarily do this or like, you know, for people who, you know, my kid is growing out of their clothes every five minutes, but I can't afford to, you know, shop, sustainable brands for thing- and it is really hard, and everyone's in different positions. Even just things like you know, you start getting so much guilt around things that you're consuming. But then when you look at these small, independent brands, and it's kind of like it might be 25 pounds for like, a pair of knickers, which sounds like it's such a, it's such a like weird example to hone in on. But that's the kind of thing that I see. And I think, bloody hell like, who can afford that? Because like most people can't. And that just means, you know, it's, it can't just be on us and our individual habits because, because how is that going to work?

Venetia La Manna: So I think you've raised something really important. And I think often, you know, I think what's quite revealing about a lot of these ethical brands and their price points is that sometimes that means that the workers are getting paid fair living wages, in fact, everyone in the supply chain is getting paid fairly. And that's why it's more expensive. And I think we, that also requires some reframing. It's not that ethical fashion is so expensive, it's that fast fashion is so incredibly cheap, and also oppressive. So that's something to bear in mind. But also, absolutely, the point you've raised is so so valid, you know, for most people that is completely unaffordable, and not accessible in any way. And that's kind of why I'm getting at more like this kind of legislation thing of how can we make this accessible for everyone? And another thing that I just wanted to, while I remember, just on the kind of- okay, I can't, I don't think you, I can't support fast fashion brands, because that's really unethical. What can I buy? What can I support? Where can I go? Something that's quite important to remember with that, is that, and you see this a lot with kind of charity, t shirts, and that kind of thing. And something that I've kind of really kind of unlearnt this year is in order to do a good thing you don't necessarily need to buy, and I know, this is something you said earlier, to do a good thing you don't need to buy. You don't need to buy a t shirt that's, you know, has your solid- solidarity is not a t shirt is what I'm saying.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, there's, I mean, that was something that I had written down that I was maybe going to ask you about, I think it's such a difficult conversation to have. And I don't know, I'm aware that I'm kind of just like, going on. And what I don't want to do is, you know, frame sustainable fashion in a way that's, you know, Oh sustainable fashion so expensive, because I don't think that's always the case. However, you know, I'm just a person like everyone else. And it's kind of, you know, if I'm thinking this then so are a lot of other people. It just is the perception of some things, and it does make it feel like you're never going to be able to get it 100% right. But I don't think you are.

Venetia La Manna: I don't think you are either. And that's just, I think that's also as a result of the kind of world that we live in. It's impossible to ever get things right, the world's not built for us to do, make all the right decisions. But something that I would say that is accessible for everyone when it comes to slow fashion is like rule number one. Number one go to thing. The most sustainable clothes are the ones that are already in your wardrobe. All the clothes you have deserve love, they deserve to be looked after, they deserve to be worn. Not only is that a really really good way to make the most of what you already have, buy less. It's also a really good way to show love and respect to the people who made those clothes because every single one of those items of clothing was made by a pair of hands by predominantly women, predominantly women of colour. And I just think each of those garments holds a story. So it's really important to wear what you already have. And that is the most- so the most sustainable wardrobe you can have is just to make the most of what you already own. And most people can do that. So I think that's also you know, if you're listening to this, and you're feeling really like, oh, confused and lost, know that all of your clothes are wonderful, even if they're from fast fashion brands, I still wear a lot of fast fashion from, you know, clothes I've had from a long, for a long time. Keep wearing them, keep showing them love, keep looking after them. It’s really really important.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think that is such a good thing to think as well. And it's kind of like, you know, if you're someone who is trying to get a lot more into sustainable fashion. It's, it's not the case that you know, it's now something to be ashamed of that you own a garment from a fast fashion shop and you can't wear it anymore because you're promoting it, because you were, you already own it, like that ship sailed. So you may as well just, you know, make the most of it. I think that's something with secondhand shopping as well that I've kind of thought before, is- because something I now kind of try and do if I am going to buy something, whether or not it's from a sustainable brand. I'm much more in the habit, at least, of reading the label and seeing what it's made of, to see kind of like, you know, what, where, where's it come from? What is its onward life likely to be like? But once you're looking in a charity shop, or a thrift store, or wherever you're looking for secondhand clothes? Does that consideration change quite a lot? So if you're buying fast fashion brands, secondhand, are those pieces then… good again? I guess is what I'm saying.

Venetia La Manna: Yeah, I get asked this all the time. Probably one of the most frequently asked questions I get is, is okay to buy fast fashion brands secondhand? And I absolutely think it is. We need to be extending the lifetimes of all, all garments that are already in existence. My main kind of, I guess rule with it is- Do you love it? And if you love it, it means you're more likely to wear it more, have it for longer. So whether or not it's from a fast fashion brand, ask yourself how much do I love this? Does it make me feel amazing? And can I see myself wearing it for a really long time? I personally don't mind buying fast fashion secondhand. But I also, like you, I love looking at the labels and that kind of thing. And I if I'm shopping online secondhand, I love using filters as a way to kind of find more sustainable materials a lot of the time, just because I love the feel of them as well. And I know that they're going to probably biodegrade more easily and that kind of thing.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. What are some sustainable materials, Venetia, that we could be looking for?

Venetia La Manna: Yeah, so um, some really, you want to be looking for kind of natural yarns. So things like linen, hemp, I know hemp has like a really, really kind of negative rap because it's so like, hippy, but it is actually really, really brilliant. Cotton, if you're buying secondhand, you know, is a really wonderful material. Jeans are made from cotton. They are super thirsty and super intense. They're kind of very, they have rea-, they're quite intensive, but secondhand, they're brilliant. And then anything with a poly is plastic generally. So that's just something to be wary of. But if it's secondhand, I wouldn't give yourself that much hard, of a hard time. I know that vegans are kind of quite dubious about things like wool, obviously leather. So if you're vegan, that's something to take into consideration too. But I am of the opinion that if it's secondhand, again-

Gemma Styles: Ship’s sailed.

Venetia La Manna: That ship’s sailed. Exactly. Couldn't have put it better myself.


Q&A

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Gemma Styles: Every week, my guest and I will be answering your questions. And the first one comes in from Allie. She says,

I've wanted to get into sustainable fashion for a few years now. I find myself doing okay for a few months until there's a new trend that I really like. And then I find myself falling into old habits. Do you have any tips to not fall into old habits like that?

Venetia La Manna: Great question. I find the same.

Gemma Styles: She also says, she goes on, the end of this question is:

Do you try and find a way to get the latest trends with what you already have? Or do you just tell yourself that the trend doesn't matter anyway?

Venetia La Manna: Honestly, wonderful question, can relate so much. Granddad trainers right? Big time. They were huge.

Gemma Styles: Oh my god. Yes. And it was, ugh, it's so difficult because I look at these things and I'm like, Oh, you look really good in that you look really good in that. Would I look good in that? Do I want one of those? Like, in two years time am I gonna think why did I [laughing] why did I buy this thing? It's really hard.

Venetia La Manna: So let's take that example of those trainers. That kind of big, chunky trainer. Now when they first came back into fashion- because this is something that I grew up with. When they came back into fashion. I was like oh I'd really like a pair of those. I didn't invest. And now it feels like again, that ship has kind of sailed, but they're not so trendy anymore. I feel like they've had their time. And they're kind of like, potentially on the way out. I'm obviously not a trend guru anymore, because I can't be. But I would say that you can either wait for the ship to sail. Or you could try and find a way to buy them secondhand. There are so many places online to find these really trendy items secondhand. And it's getting much easier, especially for like a pair of trainers, right? It is getting easier to find these items secondhand. But what I would recommend is really trying to get to grips with your own style. Now, this is something I think that gets easier as you get older, potentially.

Gemma Styles: 100%.

Venetia La Manna: Yeah, I mean, I have never been someone with like a really distinct sense of style. I wish I was that person. I wish I just stuck to like one decade. And that was my vibe. But unfortunately, I'm not. I'm a magpie, I'm drawn to so many different things. And because of my relationship with fast fashion, in the past, my wardrobe was super eclectic. But I would try and create kind of Pinterest boards of the things that you love. And these can be from different times, and refer to that and have that as your style and try not to get too sidetracked by trends. Another thing that I kind of have been thinking about recently, is, I don't want to- I want to keep more of my clothes and have them for as long as I possibly can. Because chances are, some of those clothes are going to come back in style.

Gemma Styles: So true.

Venetia La Manna: Right? But I think it's like, I would say fill your kind of Instagram feed or wherever you get your, wherever you spend lots of time with people who have kind of quite timeless, effortless style, you know, people who just wear things that aren't necessarily bang on trend all the time. But it's not the easiest thing in the world. And I would say you know what, if you do fall absolutely in love with something that's really trendy, and you're going to have it for a long time, then I'm not I'm not going to be here, I'm not going to be the one to judge you. I also I, I’ve felt guilty about so many things. You know, I used to guilt trip myself when I was kind of really trying to be very, very plastic free about like a pot of yoghurt. And now I look back on that I’m like, hun, go easy on yourself. Do you know what I mean? Maybe you have some good advice on that one.

Gemma Styles: I really like your advice of making a kind of like Pinterest style board. And I think that is something that I'm going to do. I think, yeah, I don't know, I kind of identify with the seeing if you can get the trend with things you already have. So I'm really, the thing, one of the things I'm most terrible for is coats. I love coats, I have such as such a coat-drobe I have too many different ones. Because I tend to all winter, I'll wear some kind of all black outfit, and then just a different coat on top of it. But I do this every year now and see people wearing these, like these great coats. And then I think I have actually got a grey coat. It might be a slightly different shade of grey than that grey coat. But do I really need a slightly different shade of a grey coat? No, I don't, because it just it doesn't make that much difference. And if you're kind of following the general style of somebody anyway, I always think outfits you see on Instagram, they do, they look different in real life anyway.

Venetia La Manna: 100%.

Gemma Styles: And when you when you see people wearing outfits, and you think, Oh, that looks really nice and really kind of like chic and classy. And it looks like a really great outfit. And then you click on it and it's tagged. And it's like a really cheap jumper from a fast fashion brand. It does kind of just make me think and I'm like- the things that I have are just as good as that. It's just a particularly nice picture.

Venetia La Manna: 100%. And it's all about, I also just try and hold on to the fact like, it's all about how that body is carrying those clothes. It's so much of it. So much of style is just confidence and owning it.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, that's very true as well. Cor, one question you can, I could just carry on all of these conversations. [laughing] Okay, I'm gonna move us on. Our next question is from Avery, and I had actually several variations on this question, so:

How do you feel about thrifting from stores like Goodwill?

Which I know is an American store, we don’t actually have it. She says

Recently there's been some division from people who claim that it's unfair for people who can afford other clothes to shop from Goodwill, because it takes the clothes from others who need them.

So it's kind of this idea of gentrifying thrift shops, and, you know, assuming that the only people who use thrift stores are people who can't afford to shop elsewhere.

Venetia La Manna: Yeah, there's been a lot of conversation about this recently. And it's not, you know, taking the Goodwill example, kind of, it's not just Goodwill. It's there's been conversation about this with kind of every secondhand site and charity shops in general, and I think there is some truth to it to be honest. However, Tansy Hoskins who's one of my favourite fashion writers recently spoke about this on Twitter. But I don't think it's kind of necessarily the most press, pressing issue. I think it's true. But she she spoke about it quite well. I think if we're all kind of adhering to the buy less rule. It's not like a massive, massive problem. But yeah, I mean, I think there is truth to it to be honest. There has been, there's definitely been a glamorization of shopping, shopping secondhand, and I also think- I follow this YouTuber, something that I don't really share with many people is I have like my little like, what I love doing in my spare time is watching YouTubers. I'm just like, that's what I do. It's my happy place.

Gemma Styles: Okay!

Venetia La Manna: And she, she shops secondhand, quite a lot. But quantity, she buys is absolutely madness. And she says like, it's fine! It's sustainable! Because it's all secondhand. But the volume is like so much, she's never going to have, there's never, she's never going to be able to wear all those clothes. Right? So I think it's important for us to, I think it's really important for us to bear in mind when we shop secondhand, it's it's really, really important. You know, am I preventing someone else from having access to this? Do I need it? Could I buy less? I think these are important questions for sure.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it’s, it feels like that is a continuation of you know, just because you can buy something and it feels better that it's secondhand. It doesn't mean you need to buy everything that you like that you see.

Venetia La Manna: Exactly.

Gemma Styles: Next question, which is something that you touched on briefly. And I don't know if you're going to know the answer to this. But it's a question from Hansika, who asks:

It’s a known fact that many European countries, including the UK and America ship their waste to Asian countries. Most of this waste includes garments. Why aren't these well developed countries capable of coming up with new recycling methods? Or why are they shipping their garments at all?

Venetia La Manna: So important. So important. Why..? Why? Because we would rather spend our money on other things, I guess? Is it because we're not spending our money in the right way, we're not taking ownership of our own waste, we're not investing in the right things? And frankly, to be honest, it's because countries like the UK care way too much about profit and the economy than they do a healthy planet. It's like this, this is the thing that we kind of, that keeps, I keep coming back to you know, we keep seeing one of you know, the most polluting companies in the world talking about how they're going to be more green. It's like, Well, are you really and do you really care? Or are you just, is this just greenwashing? Yeah, we are, we're absolutely doing that. We don't have the infrastructure, because we haven't invested in the infrastructure to deal with our own waste. And we're shipping it away, because we can and because we're not taking ownership. It’s really awful. It's really unsettling. And it's really not okay. And it's something that our governments need to do better with. It's so unfair.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Venetia La Manna: I mean, imagine just like, imagine if that's- imagine just giving all your waste to a friend. That's basically what it is right? Or someone you don't necessarily like that much. Or someone you've oppressed?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, like, can you just deal with this for me? Because I've created this problem, but I don't actually want to deal with this problem.

Venetia La Manna: Exactly. It's awful. It's really, really awful. And yeah, more deeply. So it's, it's what we what we talked about earlier. It's it's a it's a hangover from colonialism. It's really horrible.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I don't think there's a quick answer to that. And I don't think either of us- I don't think anybody could give a quick answer to it. But I think it's one of those things, maybe what you were saying it comes down to more, you know, spending your time. And us, especially in the Global North, spending our time and trying to change the systems a little bit? I don't actually know exactly how you do that. But I think it's something that we need to try and pursue and sort our governments out and sort our systems out.

Venetia La Manna: Absolutely.

Gemma Styles: I don't know how to do it, but we, you know, keep listening, keep learning. Keep trying, I guess.

Venetia La Manna: And yeah, do have a look at dead white man's clothes as well, @theorispresent on Instagram because this is their work. This is what they do.

Gemma Styles: I will link to that as well, for sure.

Venetia La Manna: Awesome.

Gemma Styles: Last question I have for you is from Basma who asks,

If fashion designers or designer brands started working sustainably and eco friendly, would they still be as successful as they are now financially?

Venetia La Manna: Yes. Because consumers are so awake to this to this issue that I think there's a hu- really high demand for it. However, I do not think that focusing on profit, when it comes to sustainable fashion, is actually going to solve that much.

Gemma Styles: Mm. Yeah, I knew that was gonna be a tricky question because, you know, for one, you don't run a designer fashion brand. So, you know, you’re not in their books, but also makes me think of something you said earlier, where it's kind of like, you know, fast fashion companies make a lot of money. But they're not paying people a lot of money. So could you almost..? Well, I mean, no, you couldn’t, I’m disagreeing with myself even as I ask the question, but could you fix fast fashion by readjusting their profit margins almost, and you know, if they made slightly less profit, but they actually paid people properly? Is there any way that it's gonna work like, or is it just a complete system overhaul that is needed?

Venetia La Manna: It is a system overhaul that's needed. But if there was a redistribution of wealth, it would actually make a huge difference. And you know what, it wouldn't even take that much of their wealth to redistribute. In the campaign that I've been running this year, we've been referring to it as a new solidarity economy. And that new Solidarity Economy puts garment workers first. And it lets garment workers decide what they want. They want, you know, their basic needs, they want fair living wages, they want their demands met. And that's one of the most important things. And that's the thing that I keep coming back to. So it's gonna take a lot, but I think with, if we put them at the forefront if we redistribute some of that horrendous wealth, and make less of a wealth gap, and if we also input the right legislation, I do think we can make some some real change. But if we're too focused- currently I feel we're too focused on sustainably sourced materials. And not enough, we're not focused enough on on the ethics. Because ultimately, and I'm sure you agree with this, sustainably sourced materials should be standard. And so should fair living wages. Standard.

Gemma Styles: I mean, yeah, it is horrible that that feels like… a pipe dream. But I agree. It should, like- wouldn't it be so nice if things were nice? And I know that sounds so wishy washy and like oh, you dreamer, you millennial fool. But like, wouldn't it just be nice if people just treated each other properly?

Venetia La Manna: Exactly. Exactly. And I, you know, I've been so guilty of that, like, [faux influencer tone] ‘my leggings are made from recycled plastic and therefore I am a sustainable eco queen’. [Gemma laughs] But actually, like it, I just think it would be so wonderful to have, you know, the high street stores that we're all familiar with. Imagine if we could walk into them and know that everyone who's made those clothes has had their demands met, hasn't been, has been allowed to unionise, has been allowed basic things like clean drinking water! Like the fact that we're far away from this, blows my mind but I do feel hopeful. It's so important to feel hopeful. Because there is hope.

Gemma Styles: There is hope. That's where I'm going to finish this section. Hope! There is hope. [both laugh]

Remember, if you want to get in touch with us or you've got any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.


recommendations

Gemma Styles: Before you go, I've got three things that I ask of every guest and that's if listeners want to learn more and find out more about what we've been talking about. Can you give us something to read, something to listen to, and something to watch?

Venetia La Manna: The viewing material I would like to recommend is The Ugly Truth of Fast Fashion, which is a Patriot Act episode with Hasan Minhaj. It's available on Netflix and also this is available on YouTube. If you haven't watched Patriot Act, it's wonderful. It is my dream kind of political content because it is also entertaining and it's funny. That's my favourite. When stuff is funny and entertaining, and it's also like hard hitting.

Gemma Styles: I haven't heard of this. It sounds great.

Venetia La Manna: Oh my gosh, it’s so great. I'm obsessed with him. I'm in love with him. I mean, the whole thing is just amazing. But this episode brilliantly, in a very condensed and accessible way breaks down the issues within the fast fashion industry. Super accessible and also funny and impactful. Really, really would recommend.

Gemma Styles: That sounds like a perfect starter. Moving on, something to read please.

Venetia La Manna: In light of this conversation, I would really like to recommend ‘The Twilight of the Ethical Consumer’ which is an article on Atmos by Elizabeth Cline. Elizabeth Cline is one of my favourite, another one of my favourite fashion writers. She's been doing this work for quite a while now, kind of, over 10 years. And she's made a career out of writing books about how to be an ethical fashion consumer. However this article is about the Pay Up campaign and more focuses on garment workers, and also this all important system change. This article impacted me so deeply. And I really want everyone to read it. So that is my, and it's so relevant to this podcast as well. So that is my article to read.

Gemma Styles: I actually did read that when you shared it recently. And it’s a real thinker, I would also recommend it.

Venetia La Manna: It’s a real thinker, right?

Gemma Styles: For sure. And lastly, if I can remember where we’re up to, what have we done already? Uhhh, something to listen to please.

Venetia La Manna: I would love to recommend the podcast that I created this year alongside my friends, Swatee, Devi and Ruby. It is called Remember Who Made Them and it is a six part podcast series, all about fashion and fair fashion. And in it, we speak directly to garment workers and their unions. And we learn, basically, and unlearn a lot. And I'm really proud of it. It's hopefully very accessible, it's free. However, if you would like to support our work, you can on Patreon, and all of our- all of the money that we raise goes direct to garment workers and their unions. I'm really, really proud of it. And I learnt so much doing it, and I'm very, very grateful for it. So that is my thing I would like to recommend people to listen to.

Gemma Styles: That is brilliant. I think that's perfect, onward, learning material from this conversation for sure.

Venetia La Manna: Awesome.

outro

[music]

Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening to Good Influence, and thank you Venetia for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, please take a minute to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player or wherever you're listening. And if you're feeling extra generous rate and review as well. It's really appreciated and helps other people find the podcast. See you next week.