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intro

[music]

Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest, who will help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about body acceptance and censorship; the plus size modelling industry, the co opting of body positivity, and being thrust into the role of activist. So joining me this week is Nyome Nicholas-Williams. Nyome is a plus size model who has worked with brands including Adidas, Boots and Dove. She's also an activist and describes herself as an advocate for mental health, body love and acceptance. In 2020, she made headlines after semi nude portraits of her were repeatedly removed from Instagram, sparking a campaign and the hashtag #IWantToSeeNyome, eventually leading to a change in Instagram’s policy.

[music continues]

Gemma Styles: I’m gonna pin you to the chat so I can actually see your face…

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: [mock scared noise]

Gemma Styles: [laughing] At least pretend we’re in the same room!

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: At least, yeah.

[music ends]

discussion

Gemma Styles: So I'd love to start by sort of just asking you about your career so far, like, how long have you been modelling? How did you get into it?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, sure. So I've been modelling for about four years now, I was gonna say three, but we're in 2021. So that would make it four. I literally started when I entered a competition for quite a big brand. And it was full of like, plus sized women. And I got down to the final 30. And I was like, Wow, I've got down to like 30 women, and there's something here, but I still didn't see many, like fat Black women like myself, and I thought, you know what, there should be more space for women that look like me. And just plus size women in general. So I literally started my portfolio, I started networking. I contacted photographers, I was relentless with applying to agencies, I got a lot of noes, a lot of noes. So I was doing it by myself until I joined an agency the year before last, and then it kind of took off from there, I joined the agency and I started getting jobs. I left that one and I started with my two current agencies, they are the best, they look after me really well. And then it's just been thing after thing, it kind of, all kind of happened. I kind of fell into it. More the activism than the modelling, because modelling- I’m a photographer first. That's what I studied at uni. That's my first love. So it's weird that I'm like, in front of the camera primary now, as opposed to behind it. So yeah, it kind of all kind of came together like a puzzle that I didn't really want to play. But here we are.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. So it's funny how things happen, isn't it? It's good to hear, you know, how you even got into modelling in the first place. Because I know it's such a competitive industry.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yes it is.

Gemma Styles: And I know like, you know, there's, there seem to be like, different ways that people get into it. I think by like, starting out with a competition. I feel like it's one of those things where like, if you see stuff advertised, you're like, Okay, yeah, but like, Who does that actually work for? But that's so cool that that's how you started out.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, it was it was kind of, now I think about it, it's wild, that competition is what is based and industry is surrounded by people are trying to, obviously one up each other and beat out the competition. But I think it's very different when it comes to plus size modelling. I said this, everyone's a bit nicer. I feel anyway, obviously, I'm not straight model, I wouldn't be able to tell. But I have models that, straight models that are friends and they've told me, you know, some horror stories, but I feel like there’s more of a community in the plus size modelling. Yeah.

Gemma Styles: That's really nice. Why do you think is?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I don't know. I just find like, well, I do actually, I find that we've all been like, had people talk about our bodies, or you know, people make comments and because you kinda understand each other and see things from each other's point of view. There's no like snarky comments or like, you know, underlying, like, fatphobia or anything. It's quite transparent. So yeah, I think it's just more like a community.

Gemma Styles: That is really nice.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah.

Gemma Styles: What have been some kind of highlights for you career wise, so far? Like, what? What's your favourite kind of modelling to do now that you've like been in it for a little while?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: You know, what's funny, I don't have a favourite. I just like doing things people say I can't do. Okay, so what's a favourite that I've done? I modelled for Lululemon. And they're a yoga company that primarily caters for clothing for women who are between a size, what, 8 and 14? And I was their first plus size model, because they've extended their sizes to a size 22. And they chose me to model for them.

Gemma Styles: That’s so cool.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: And that was big, because I've been told like, [mock laughing] No, you can't do that. Because you're a fat Black woman. I was like, yes I can. I'm healthy. You can't tell me anything different. I'm going to do it and the fact that I was chosen, and that's a lie. Also Cult Beauty. They made me their Christmas cover girl. That was huge. Cuz, you know, I've never seen a face like mine when I was growing up on any, like, cover or anything.

Gemma Styles: Oh yeah I actually got your face through the post-

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Did you!

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I ordered a Christmas present and it came through the post and had your face on it and I was like Ooh! I’m gonna have her on the podcast soon!

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: [laughs] See. That's cool.

Gemma Styles: Really cool.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, that kind of gave me an immense sense of pride just because now women and children, children or girls growing up will see someone who looks like them and think you know, I can do that. You know?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. So talking about kind of falling into activism through, you know, a situation.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: [laughs] Yeah.

Gemma Styles: Can I ask you about that campaign that we're talking about? So, kind of from the beginning, how did this all start, your activist life now?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: That's such a scary thing to hear. Yeah, so it from the beginning? Last year, July, on the 30th. I remember it. Ooh! I did a shoot with Alex Cameron. I think you know, Alex quite well.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, yeah, I do! Lovely woman.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I love her. Yeah, so we did a confidence shoot. I wouldn't call it a confidence shoot, cuz I'm always confident in myself, but we just wanted to, you know, produce some great imagery. We took some, I think, very tastefully artistic, nude images. And we were like, so excited. She sent me one on the way home. I posted that evening. And literally within two minutes of it being up. It disappeared from my feed. I didn't get a guideline note. I said, What is going on? Then Alex messaged me and was like, Ny? Has your picture come down? I said yeah, she said Mine has too. So Alex said, absolutely not, not having this. And she said, Okay, I'm gonna message Gina Martin. And I didn't know Gina prior to Alex telling me who Gina was. I don't know, I'd been living under a rock. I'm not an activist. As you can tell, I didn't know who Gina was. So she enlisted the help of Gina and Gina started a hashtag. And she was like, furious. She's like, nope, it’s not happening. She was like, let's start a hashtag. I want to see Nyome, let's get the picture back up, let's all post it at the same time with the hashtag #IWantToSeeNyome, you know, we’ll see how many will stay up, how many will come down. And it literally snowballed from there. I don't even remember how it got as big as it did. But I think it was because of the amount of people that had posted it. And under the hashtag, it was like 1000 plus people that had reposted the image, which was really nice of everyone. And this was everybody. It wasn't just like, plus size women it was people from all communities, which was really lovely. And then The Guardian got in touch. And they said that they wanted to write a piece on it. And that was gonna be in page three. And I got the Guardian piece was the one that really snowballed it into what it was and had different, you know, publications coming up and asking to write about it. And then we thought, you know what, this isn't acceptable. So why don't we try and see if we can get a policy change, Gina said, Why don't we try and see if you know, we can get your picture back up and just find out why this keeps happening. After the image came down, Gina had a contact at Facebook/Instagram. And I had a zoom with the two of them. And they tried to like explain like, a bit about the technology behind Instagram and how that part works. And after that, I didn't feel satisfied with it. So that was then when we started penning an open letter. And we got some really big names to sign it. And that got the attention of Adam Mosseri. And we then had a zoom call with him and some of his team. That's quite daunting for me. I've never spoken to a CEO or anyone who's that big on a platform who runs it.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, so Adam Mosseri is the CEO of Instagram isn’t he, just for the benefit of anyone listening.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yes. Yeah, he's the CEO. So we had a zoom call with him, he apologised for it coming down, because he said that it was wrong. It wasn’t meant to happen, obviously, I wanted to know why. And obviously, he explained the technical side of it, and how you know that the reviews team couldn’t tell the difference between someone holding their boob and like cupping their boob, or someone grabbing it. And I was like, Okay, well, I understand that. But the problem is that this is only happening to women who look like me, because I've seen a lot of, you know, slim white women, women who are in a smaller body, or people who are in smaller bodies who have much more provocative images up that stay up, you know, and what's that, it’s the bias underneath, there’s obviously a racial undertone here. Well, there's something going on. Obviously, it was addressed- not that per se, but that was a, you know, an acknowledgment that there is an issue there. So they proceeded and they said that they were going to change the policy on how boob covering and holding is changed- obviously it’s very like technical and a lot of people have questions as to why it was so specific, but because there's so many little like niggles with technology and like algorithms that they couldn't change like a whole- it’s coding, isn't it? It's a whole different world. So they can only be very specific with what they could change. And I'm happy for the change, of course. But obviously, that's one change. There's so many different things. Like, there's hate speech that's allowed to stay up on, you know, on the platform, there's things that people have, there's awful things on there. And they’re allowed to stay up and when someone reports an image of someone's body that they deem is, you know, unfiltered, they don't like the look of, that comes down straight away. So there's got to be a discussion about that. But I'm happy with, you know, what we've managed to do.

Gemma Styles: That's really good. How did you find the press coverage generally of it like, I imagine when something blows up like that, and suddenly, it's like, everybody wants an interview. How was that?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: They were like Can I can I speak to you, can I talk to you? I was like [pained noise]. My anxiety was literally through the roof.

Gemma Styles: Oh my God I can’t imagine.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I had to lie down. I said to my therapist I was like, I've done this, and I've done that she was just like, okay, breathe, calm down. I had to literally take a minute because it was very, very, very full on. And then obviously, Alex and Gina as well and it was full on for them, too. It was full on for all of us. Yeah, it was a lot.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I guess you were kind of just thrown into it really weren’t you?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, yeah. But we all leaned on each other, which is really nice. So.

Gemma Styles: That is really nice. I mean, I knew Gina and Alex before this. And then obviously you like, from the campaign. And I just feel like the three of you together, ah, were like, an absolute Powerpuff Girls, Charlie's Angels, dream team of getting stuff done.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yes! That is the vibe. Yeah, that's, that's, that's the Dream Team. And I'm so glad that we managed to like make change or lasting change, you know, so…

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it’s so nice that you had each other for support as well. I think that's, that must be really important when you're working in activism.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah. Totally.

Gemma Styles: I think it's kind of, you know, I'll, I'll mentioned for the benefit of the tape, for anyone who hasn't seen images, so you were nude in the images, topless.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yes.

Gemma Styles: But your nipples, you know, like, a lot of your breast to be fair, were covered. So like, it's not… the point of it being you know, you weren't as naked, I say, making air quotes, [both laugh] as you know, as a lot of images that you might otherwise see on Instagram. And I honestly, I thought one of the most like, it brought it home, because you know, I'd seen a lot of your image being shared on Instagram. But then, and I think, I think it was Alex posting them who was posting examples of other images on Instagram, mostly of like, thin white women. And some of them were her work, because she does quite, quite a bit of nude photography. And some of them weren't, but you know, seeing the difference. And, you know, being able to make a direct comparison and say, these images were allowed to stay up and these images weren't? What is the difference? Come on, everyone. Let's see the very clear common denominator here. I think that was really- it's really helpful to kind of have those visual comparisons as well.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Sure.

Gemma Styles: So when we're talking about the policy that's changing it was to do with- it was, it was to do with pornographic content wasn’t it?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: It was pornographic content, yeah. They were trying to like, compare the two, like, the difference between someone grabbing it is like a pornographic kind of image, whereas someone holding it can be artistic. But it’s because they're very close together. But we can all tell the difference between a suggestive picture an image and one that's like artistic.

Gemma Styles: Absolutely.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: But obviously, the technology cannot. And that's the thing. So when they assess an image, they'll bank it. And then they'll, there's like a grey area where they don't really know where it goes. And then you kind of get the guideline to your your page, which says your page could be taken down. So it's very, it's a very weird, I don't know how to- what am I trying to say now? It's a weird way of assessing pictures, I think, obviously, that they use, but that's how they've built their system and built Instagram, you know?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, I feel like you've probably had quite a rare insight into the inner workings of Instagram and how these platforms actually function now because this is the thing as well, like when… so when your image was initially taken down on that very first day, and you kind of say, you know, like within two minutes or whatever it was taken down. Do you know how that happened? As in, does it always get taken down because someone's reported an image or is there… are there certain times when it is just the sort of automatic software that does it without a human set of eyes even having seen it?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I don't want to say the wrong thing because I… see I've got a fish memory. I don't actually remember, but I believe there are review teams. And when people get to a certain size, they will obviously keep an eye on certain people.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: So I- my page wasn't as big, as it is now, prior to this happening, so I think that it's like I said, there's like a grey area where they'll see Oh, my gosh, someone's covered their boob, and you know, flag instantly. So it's either it's something in their system that automatically flag it up, or it is someone who is reporting it.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. Sorry, I didn't know if you're gonna know the answer to that or not.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: It’s okay.

Gemma Styles: But it’s like, I don't know, just try just trying to figure out how these things work as well. Because because then it all always comes down to you know, like, if people are reporting images, like… really? Like, who would, who would have reported that? And that was what I was thinking, cuz, you know, like, I, I'd seen that picture. And it was just a really nice portrait picture, like, you look so calm and serene. And it was just a really nice picture, you kind of think like, who would have reported that? So you then kind of assume, you know, a certain amount of it must be automated?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah.

Gemma Styles: There's obviously a lot of work to do in that tech systems.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: And also, they had, they told me that they have review teams and people that actually look at some of the pictures. So then there, there's begs the question is, is there like biases with some of the people that are reviewing, that are in these teams that are reviewing the images? You know, we all have biases, and we should all be aware of that. But when you come into a job where you are reviewing people's images, are you doing that solely based on your, you know, view on this person or how this person looks? So whether you find them attractive? Do you know what I mean?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, that's true. And I guess that also, is one of the reasons why, you know, when we're talking about the policy change that you've got implemented, like, the very specific wording of these things, is then very important, because if it's being passed to someone who's who, you know, is sat at a computer, and their job is to review an image.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah.

Gemma Styles: And you know, say, is this wrong? Or is this right? And they've got something in black and white that sat there and says, You're not allowed to hold a breast, then they kind of go, Okay, well… no then?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Don’t know what to do.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's kind of… I think the language and you know, like, very, very specific policies, in this case in like, a giant like Instagram, where you have to follow rules that they've set or you know, that their staff reviewing them just have to follow rules that they've set, it is really important that they have these distinctions down in black and white. And, you know, it's just, yeah, people with different size bodies and with different bodies in general, aren’t gonna look exactly the same in the same positions or the same, like, covering themselves. You know, I mean, like, I would look totally, like- I have no underboob. [both laughing] Like, there's not much for me to have to cover in the first place.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: This is what we were speaking about. This is a topic that that Gina actually brought up, she's like, if someone is bigger, or they have more boobs, there'll be more boob to cover. So it's difficult for us to, you know, assess, or them to say, Oh, well, this doesn't work, or this person has to come down because of that. Everyone's body is different. So it's, it's, it's so nuanced. It's such a hard conversation to have, because it's like, I don't know, where do you draw the line at? You know? Them saying it's not racial, or you know, about body size when it really probably is, but no one's saying that it is. But we are aware that it is. But it's just like this elephant in the room. But I don't know where the line is, you know, with the discussion surrounding it, or, you know, I don't know.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's, it's obviously a very, like, nuanced conversation. But this is where- so you had, as well as the hashtag #IWantToSeeNyome

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yes.

Gemma Styles: You had a petition on the go at the same time, right. Like, things were being attacked from all angles.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Oh petition. See, I forgot- this is Yeah, fish brain? Yes, I did have a petition that was started, for me, by one of my lovely followers. Yes.

Gemma Styles: So and I think it was important for you to state, and so, I've obviously like seen a lot of the conversation that was going around at the same time. And it was ‘stop censoring fat Black women’. As in like, you have to be specific about what the problem is.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, to get a change and for the focus to be on what it needs to be on. Because during the campaign, we had like other models coming in and riding off of my campaign and then pretending I didn't know what it was. And there was one model in particular and she's a white plus size model. And she kind of rode off that and was like I didn't know the campaign. I didn't know that it was about, I didn't see anything, which is obviously false, because she's spoken to a friend of mine, who had kind of told her, you know, this is not on and they know each other. But it was it was starting to be watered down. And then it started to be like, all plus sized bodies, stop censoring all you know fat plus size bodies rather than like, Black plus size bodies. And this is the thing that I was trying, well trying to navigate that, yes, all plus size bodies need to be seen. But Black plus, Black plus size bodies are respected and seen far less. So once someone else comes in and jumps on the wave. And if they are a white woman, or anyone that isn't Black or a person of colour, it's going to be diluted, and then we're gonna be forgotten about. And we had to literally fight all these different elements while trying to like get, you know, Instagram to actually listen, plus the open letter plus the petition. And it was just like, Oh my gosh, plus, like everyone tagging because their pictures have been coming down, plus the support, and then the people that weren't supportive, but it was a lot. It was an intense, like three months.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I bet it must- I mean, that was kind of the first thing that you said, right? So I asked you a question about, you know, becoming an activist and you were like, Oh, that's really scary thing to think like, what? How has that been for you? And like, how do you feel about now being sort of put into that role of activist? Is it a role that you want? Is it a role that you want to keep having? Or…

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I feel like, others would say that I'm probably an activist from before just because I’m very outspoken about things, and I have been, but I've never taken anything or an actual cooperation. So but for myself, personally, I think this is the start of something that I could love, because I like to speak up about things and get changes. And, you know, being friends with Gina has, like, helped to push that into something that I want to do more of, and that, you know, she made upskirting, you know, illegal, and then for her to now help me, pro bono, take on my case, and then get it done. Like, that's shown me that it can be done. So I feel like I would still love to be- it's scary. As as you know, it's very scary.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: But, yeah, something that I could definitely, you know, you can't just stop activism, I don't think especially when you're passionate or as passionate about a topic, or subject as I am or my lived experiences, you know?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think it's, it's one of those things, isn't it? That's probably kind of the label is more scary than the work itself, if you know what I mean? Like, I know that you have described yourself as an advocate for other things, you know, like on your social media accounts. So like a mental health advocate, for example. Do you find that… do you find that kind of being in that space and being an advocate or being an activist, do you think that it creates a lot more pressure on you to do things? Or do you think it kind of gives you a certain freedom to kind of just really throw yourself into that role and like, be as outspoken as you want to?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I don't think it pressures me per se, because I don't do anything if it doesn't feel authentic, and if it doesn't feel right. And if I've not lived that experience, where I can try and help someone else. So I'll only speak on something, if you know, I have, can help someone, or through my experiences can try and help someone else. So I don't feel pressure, pressured at all.

Gemma Styles: That's good.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Especially surrounding mental health. Because, you know, being that mental health is so important to me, because I've got a lot of things, mental- not a lot of things but like, suffered from depression in the past. And I have anxiety as well, quite badly. So I don't mind talking about it, because it's a taboo subject. So if I can help anyone, that's like my main goal.

Gemma Styles: That's really nice. Do you think being a model, it all kind of came together in a way that worked quite well for the campaign? Because I mean, I remember thinking when I was seeing all this going on, thinking that it must be such an intense situation for you to have, basically, this whole conversation going on about your body. I just thought I was like, Oh, my God, I don't know how I would deal with that. But do you think you being a model in the first place and having a kind of quite image focused job in the first place, do you think that made you kind of more able to take people talking about your body so much, or was that still a bit of like a weird experience for you?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: No, I'm used to it. There's always scrutiny. There's always people that say things, people have been like saying things from when I was a child, I had an eating disorder, I had anorexia when I was growing up. So people were talking about my body from when I was at school, right through uni- college, uni, and up until now, so it really didn't bother me. Obviously, certain things people say can affect me if it's like quite severe, with their, severe with their opinion, but I think me being the model like you said equipped me to kind of deal with it. Not that people should have opinions on anyone's body ever but you know, as humans, people like to say things for some weird reason, and just voice their opinion about how they feel, even when it's unwarranted. So, you know.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's a weird one, isn't it? Cuz I feel like so much of the conversation now is about kind of like, just stop being so obsessed with each other's bodies. But then when it comes to an issue like this, and there are certain bodies that are being censored, you obviously then have to take quite a close look at that. And it's all it's all just a big, big confusing thing.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, it’s a lot.

Gemma Styles: So I've seen you use the term body, like body love and body acceptance.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Sure.

Gemma Styles: Which I think… I think I got from your Twitter bio? [Nyome laughs] But I've seen you use that term rather than body positivity, for example, which I still feel like, is like the main one that in the wider media, people will talk about as like the go-to. I always find it really interesting, like the different language and things that people use, is there a reason why you would maybe gravitate towards like body acceptance rather than body positivity?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah… oh-ho. This is a big one. Okay, so-

Gemma Styles: It's okay, we like the big ones.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: So do I. Okay, so, body positivity, the fat liberation and body positivity was started to centre like minority bodies, not just Black bodies, but minority bodies that, you know, aren't accepted, within, like the media and in the world. So it's been watered down, like, if you were to look up body positivity, the hashtag, all you would see is a body, a page of, you know, slim white woman who are sitting down trying to create rolls. And that is now not what body positivity was. And everyone's like, I'm body positive! And it's like, okay, yeah, you can be, that’s amazing. But you're missing the point that the bodies that this movement started, was started for, literally, have been, like, alienated. So I do not use that term. Because it it's not for me now. And it's sad that I have to exclude myself from that movement that was set initially to help minority bodies like myself, but there's no place for me now. And when it's spoken about, and if I have like made posts on it before I literally would get like hurled abuse. Who are you to tell me that I can’t be body positive, you're being discriminate, um, discriminating against against my body, all sorts of things from you know, people who have never been on the side of someone commenting on them, or telling them that they're going to die prematurely, or that they're disgusting, and their mothers would be so disappointed in them for looking how they look. But they've never been on that side of it. So to kind of put yourself in the centre of something that has nothing to do with you. I cannot be a part of that anymore. Which is why I will kind of push for you know, body love and self acceptance. Because body love is the most important thing. It doesn't matter about what anyone else says about your body, it only matters what you think, you know?

Gemma Styles: Yeah it’s true, I think, one… there's a series that I've seen on Instagram, so let me think who was it… So I follow someone on Instagram called Danielle, I can't think of her last name off top my head, which is annoying. Her Instagram handle though is @danielleisanxious, which I always remember because I'm like, yeah babe. [both laugh] But she does, she does a series, which I think is called something like recreating images of thin bodies. And she, so like you were saying about, you know, people sort of contorting themselves to like create rolls where there aren't necessarily any…

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah.

Gemma Styles: She like takes those images and recreates them herself, to kind of show and make the point that thin women can get a lot of praise for these images, like you say, which aren't necessarily what the point of body positivity was for.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: At all. Yeah.

Gemma Styles: But her point is often, and she like, I'm referencing this just because these are things that I've seen that have made me go Okay, that's really helped me understand what the problem is with this.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Sure.

Gemma Styles: So basically, she says that, you know, people in fat bodies can't just put on a pair of high waisted leggings and then be like, and do a particular pose and then not be discriminated against.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, that can't happen.

Gemma Styles: So it's like, it's a weird one, because I understand in a way, and the thing is, I'm sure that a lot of people will find those images, helpful or validating or comforting, you know, because we've all got insecurities, no matter what, you know, no matter what our body is like, I feel like that's a pretty universal human experience.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yes.

Gemma Styles: But it is- not everybody who has insecurities about their body is also systematically discriminated against because of their body.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, or you know, they've not had issues where someone bases their whole entire worth on the way they look, you know? So, or how their body looks should I say. So it's not the same. And that's what's the most frustrating thing about the body positivity movement. So I think a lot of fat bodies in general, now don't associate with, you know, body positivity, especially, you know, Black women, and you know, women of colour and people of colour. So.

Gemma Styles: How do you feel about Instagram and social media, in general, after this experience, and kind of the work that you've done to change it from the inside? Do you think they're still beneficial tools in kind of increasing representation, even if you have to fight to get there?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I've always found social media to be a double edged sword. So it's very helpful in the sense you connect with people, you can connect with people that you can become friends with, and you can learn things that you'd never, you know, knew before. And there's a lot of learning on there. But there's also very, it's very toxic as well. And me having to fight so much, that whole thing has made it difficult to kind of, like, for instance, my blue tick, I got my blue tick, because I was mouthing off so much. And I was like, you're not gonna take my picture down! And I feel like they were like, okay, here's your blue tick Nyes, can you just like, stop talking now? And I was just like, ha ha, absolutely not, I'm gonna keep talking. So I felt like it was like, I've done this, and it's great. But it's like, there's still so much to do. So it's like, is this all happening for a purpose? Or is it in vain? So it kind of makes me sceptical about social media as a whole. I don't know. I'm on the fence. I'm on the fence with it. I love it. And I don't.

Gemma Styles: I mean, I think that's understandable. And it's also, I kind of feel like whatever you end up talking about with social media, it does end up being that thing of, you know, like, it's good because of this. But it's also bad because of this. And it's just, I wonder where we're going to eventually get to with it. Like, is it going to be a thing that we just accept some of its limitations? Not or, I mean, there are obviously things that are not acceptable at all and need to be changed. But is it, do you think we'll ever get to a point where we're just like, well, that's the way it is, these bits are a bit rubbish about it? Or do you think it's still, you know, worth pushing? Do you think there's some kind of future social media utopia in which we aren’t widely harmed by these platforms? [both laughing] Or like…

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I don't know why that made me laugh so much. I don't think there's a utopia. But I think there can be a semblance of like, not everyone being happy, because not everyone will be happy. I just think that there's always going to be work to do with regards to social media, because social media changes so much.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: And there's like all these platforms and stuff. Okay granted, there's not been any, like new, newer platforms than Instagram. And I've seen people like, when is like a new Instagram gonna come out so we can leave this app and stuff? But there's always work to be done. So there will never be like a social media utopia, unfortunately. As much as I'd love that.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. I mean, that was quite a [both laughing] technology, like, existential question, I guess. But I think like after, after this campaign, and the policy change that you got, have you seen an effect, like through conversations you've had, like, what effect do you think it might have had on women already? Like, do you think? Do you think that winning battles like this will help people be more confident and kind of make them feel more accepted on a platform and more able to accept themselves?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I think so. I've had quite a few people say that, you know, they, their pictures came down still, after the policy, you know, was implemented, but then they had a chance to challenge it. And then the picture was put back up. And I'd say, like, since the end of December, I used to get a lot people tagging me, like, Oh, my God, my picture’s still coming down, Nyome, like it's coming down still, it’s coming down, Gina, or it’s coming down, Alex. I've not got many tags at all, in the new year. So I'm hoping that that's because images aren't still being taken down. And if they are, then, you know, they can challenge it. And they've been put back up. So that would mean the policy’s working.

Gemma Styles: I mean, that's amazing. Because that's a direct result of the work that you've done. That must be so like, so satisfying.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah. Yeah, it's very cool.

Gemma Styles: Am I right in thinking as well though, just in case there's anyone listening, if people are still having images taken down? You're collecting data about that, right? You're still working with Instagram on that? How would they report that to you?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah. Gina has done a Typeform. It's in my bio, and it's in Gina’s bio too and basically, it's just a collection of data, especially, it's specifically for Black plus sized women. Black fat plus size women I should say, sorry to the listeners. So basically, you pop all your details in and she's made it so you can put all the, the picture that got taken down, the time it got taken down and then you can like, write a bit about it, and then we collect it all. And we feed back. And we all we've tried, what we're trying to do now is get the most like, frequently asked questions, and then present it to Instagram and ask them, you know, what are you doing about this just so we can have more transparency with the policy and the guidelines, people can understand that, you know, we've not just been like, Oh, we've done it. And we're not doing any more work, because we are.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, bye now!

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, yeah.

Gemma Styles: I mean, I think I think that's really good to see as well, that it's like, an ongoing, like working relationship now as well. And there's still, still room there where you're, you know, still doing this work. And still, you’re still pushing on things.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, always.

Gemma Styles: Like you say rather than it just being a win, and it's done.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Because there's always work to be done.

Q&A

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Gemma Styles: Every week, I'll be asking my guests some of your questions. And the first one comes in from Fiona, who says,

I've been wondering for a while now whether the term ‘plus size model’ offends the defined models, because it suggests that their body type isn't normal? We're at a point where we want to accept everyone and make society realise that a size zero model isn't the norm and there's nothing wrong with having different body sizes. So doesn't the term plus size model work against that whole idea?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Whoa, whoa, whoa, good question Fiona. No, I don't think that plus size model, the term doesn't bother me, I can see where it would, could possibly, you know, be it could show a disparity between standard models and plus size models, I think that term is probably used more so for, like clients and stuff, because that's how they'd, you know, look, and like, source out or cast a model, you know, so I think on that end, that's probably why I call myself a model or plus size model. So the term isn't offending, to me. But again, each model is different. So I think that term has been coined, because some of the first plus size models were just that, and that's who we are, we are plus sized. And we are models. So I think the term is quite apt, I'd say, personally, but I can see where it could, the lines could be a bit, you know, blurred there.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. Do you think that's kind of an industry thing, then obviously, you knowing from inside more than I would, for example, so like, do you think as, as brands, hopefully, and you know, advertisers in general, all that kind of thing… Do you think as people start to cast more diverse body shapes as standard, then you might see a kind of shift away from having to categorise models in that way?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, I believe so. Um, when actual representation is that, and it's not just like tokenistic? I think that that's when the shift will come. Cuz I do think it's more so for like industry folk, to source models and stuff, you know, but we are all models. So that is a true, a true term. So I think that hopefully, once things actually change and representation is more than just a tokenistic gesture, then it will change.

Gemma Styles: Sorry, that was just an extra question from me, that I threw in there.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: That’s fine!

Gemma Styles: Okay. Next question is from Molly, who says,

I want to ask if there's anything we as the general public, content consumers, audience, can do to change the idea of only incredibly tall, thin women being used as high fashion models? Is there anything we can do to show that we want to see all types of bodies as models in high fashion?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yes, I'd say change, like, change the pages that you follow, and the things that you consume, and share them, like if you see like a fat model or model that has, you know, done something amazing and has worked with like a big brand. Share that piece? And then you know, make it known like, this is amazing. Like this is, you know, fat women can do high fashion. Just be very vocal about it, I'd say and just, I think it's subconscious. So if you're like, what you in- what we intake every day, we literally become so whether we are aware of it or not, the things that we consume on social media will literally play into our day to day life. So if you just switch that up, and focus on looking at a different array of people that are in the industry, that are doing amazing things that don't look like, you know, this standard tall, slim white model, then, you know, you may be able to educate someone and say, Oh my God, have you seen this person, she's done this or he's done that they've done this, you know, and I think that's the way to do it to just change who you follow what you consume, and then kind of talk about it and like boost them.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I feel like as well, like you say, kind of celebrating when things do happen. So even from you know, kind of doing work in social media and stuff like that. The way that brands and kind of agencies and stuff tend to operate is all like on numbers and feedback that they get from social media, right? So being kind of vocally supportive and like liking pictures of plus size models being used in shoots and like, commenting supportive things underneath, like, those are the things that brands will see and look at and say, Okay, we're getting some really good feedback here. So we want to do this more, because that's what they want at the end of the day.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, they'll boost it more if they see that there's a wider audience loving, you know, what this person is putting out?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, exactly. I mean, there are obviously, there are some brands that will use, you know, lots of different bodies, because that's the ethos of their brand. And that's not why they're doing it. But there are, you know, when it's brands that haven't typically used very diverse models, and then they kind of test the waters and try it out, like giving those brands positive feedback is definitely the way to go I think.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I agree.

Gemma Styles: We've kind of touched on this before. But this next question is from Jess. And she emailed in and said,

Quite often, when I see a curvy girl post a photo about body confidence, or anything along those lines, I noticed there are a lot of comments about how skinny shaming is just as detrimental as fat shaming. The argument that a lot of people have with this is that the majority of the time being skinny is celebrated and the people that fit into that category are seen as the beauty standard of today… so basically, those people have nothing to complain about. My question is, what are your thoughts on people who have this mindset? Do you think that fitting into the skinny category has the same challenges as being in the curvy category?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: My gosh, I can't speak on that, because I'm not a slim person. But I will say that everybody has their own struggles, but being slim, is never looked at as an issue ever. So it's not the same, they are not the same. I understand the struggle. I will say that. So that everyone has their struggle, I don't understand the struggle. But I understand that, you know, people in a different body type might have their own internal struggle, well externally, from a worldwide viewpoint, in no way is it the same, at all.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I completely agree. I think- I don't want to say like skinny shaming isn't a thing.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: It is, it is a thing.

Gemma Styles: It is a thing, I just don't think it's the same thing. And that's, that's the point here. So like, yes, people can be discriminated against when they have a thin body. But it's not the same kind of like, they're not excluded from situations or discriminated out of like, on a systematic basis.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Or the comments made about an individual in a bigger body. They won’t receive the same abuse, they weren't received the same, you know, commentary as someone who is, because to most people, being fat is the worst thing you could be in the whole world. So the the abuse and the things that will come out of people is in no way the same thing. But I am, again, I'm not disputing the fact that slim people, you know, have their struggles. I just obviously wouldn't know them.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think it's I think yeah, I mean, I think this is what we were talking about before is that like, nobody in any of this is saying that, you know, being thin automatically means that you have no troubles in life, it's just that- don't assume that you have the same troubles as someone who, as somebody else.

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: As somebody else. Yeah, exactly. Agreed.

Gemma Styles: And last question is from Caitlyn, who says,

Is there anything you tell yourself on hard days to keep a positive mindset on body image?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, I just remind myself of how far I've come within loving myself, because the space that I used to be in, I'm so proud of myself. So I literally will look at myself in the mirror and be like, Ny, I'm proud of you, that I will just say my affirmations, and I will say you've come so far, you're incredible, your body's done so much for you. And the growth as a human, you know, I just remind myself that, you know, I'm, I've done so well, and I'm gonna continue to well, so just positive affirmations. It sounds very hippy when I say that. But affirmations work. So I say a lot of them.

Gemma Styles: I mean, if that works for you, you know, that's your advice. I mean, if I can ask kind of, if you think back to closer to like the start of your journey of like, acceptance, if you like, were there any things that you found really helpful in kind of getting to that place and getting into a positive mindset to begin with?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: I spoke about a lot with, I had loads of conversations with my friends, my friendship group, because I'm quite close with them. And these are all people outside of like the industry. And that really helped me because they've been with me- I've had my friends since I was like 12 and 13. They've seen the growth and they've seen how, me as a person and where I've come from, so I'd say that really. Just having those discussions surrounding it.

Gemma Styles: Yeah so kind of like lean on the people around you and don't like bottle, bottle things up I guess?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Bottle it up, yeah, talk about it like however I was feeling if I was feeling like you know bad about my body not, not being self deprecating, like vocalising it and communicating how I was feeling. I think so important. Therapy as well, I do therapy, so that helps. Helped.

Gemma Styles: Therapy for everyone!

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: [Oprah impression] You get some therapy! You get some therapy!

Gemma Styles: If only, right?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Literally.

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Gemma Styles: Remember, if you want to get in touch with us or have any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.

recommendations

Gemma Styles: Before you go, I've got three things I ask of every guest. And that's if listeners want to learn more about this issue and your policy change, can you give us something to read, something to listen to and something to watch, please?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Ooh, to listen to, yes, I did a podcast with Polyester Zine and Monki. And basically, that was me talking about like, plus size, my plus size body journey. And basically, prior to the policy change coming out, the lead up to it. So there's quite a bit of great discussions in that that's in my bio, on my Instagram, which is @curvynyome.

Gemma Styles: Okay, perfect. So if people want a bit more more in depth on like how this all happened, that would be a great one. And then something to read, please?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: Yeah, sure. There was a detailed interview that Gina, Alex and I did with Vice magazine. That is also on, under my bio, it’s quite detailed. So we go into everything and the policy in a bit more detail if you want to read it rather than listen to it.

Gemma Styles: Okay, perfect. And then yeah, on that point, I think our last recommendation is something to read? If you've got anywhere to point people to?

Nyome Nicholas-Williams: To read… the official policy change! You can read the guidelines, the updated guidelines, the policy, they're all there. So they’re all in my bio, also.

outro

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Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening to Good Influence. And thank you, Nyome, for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, please take a minute to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player or wherever you're listening. And if you're feeling generous rate and review as well. It's really appreciated and helps other people find the podcast. See you next week.