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intro

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Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome back to a brand new series of Good Influence. So happy to be back for season two with some topics that I find really interesting and I hope you will too. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who will help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about emotions: how we can learn to manage our feelings by identifying them, why we've evolved to react in certain ways and how we can apply that knowledge to our relationships.

So joining me this week is Dr. Sophie Mort, aka Dr. Soph. Dr. Soph is a clinical psychologist who offers one to one therapy and coaching as well as sharing warm and accessible mental health content on her Instagram page. A new book titled A Manual for Being Human comes out this summer, and aims to help us understand how we think, who we are, and how to live a happier life.

Dr Soph: If there's any parents listening to this, you give your child a gift every time you feel an emotion and you share with them what it is, why it is and how you're going to cope with it.

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discussion

Gemma Styles: So how did you get into psychology originally? What kind of drew you to this sort of profession?

Dr Soph: It's such a great question. And it's one I would love to answer with ‘I just love helping people, you know, I do it out of the goodness of my own heart.’ The reality, however, is actually at age 18, I was studying art and started having really bad panic attacks. And it totally derailed me, there was no one I could speak to about it, literally, no one I knew had been through this experience. And the only kind of information I had about mental health was what I'd seen on TV and in the movies. And often that story is someone who's struggling is mad or bad. So I felt really alone, eventually did find the right support. And from that time onwards, just thought I'm gonna learn everything there is to know about psychology, to understand myself, but also so that I can going forwards disseminate it, get it to people before they need it, so that they're not in that position. I was in at 18.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. I think that's really nice to hear as well though because I think when you when you think about psychologists, or previously on this podcast, we've done an episode on therapy. And it's one of those things where everyone thinks that therapists or psychologists are mentally perfect if you like? Don't struggle with any of these things. So talking to someone and knowing that they actually have struggled with these things, I think is great.

Dr Soph: 100%. And I think we don't really talk about it enough.

Gemma Styles: No, absolutely. Which hopefully is then why, why we do things like this. And I'm hoping by the top of the hour, I'll know more about my own emotions.

Dr Soph: [laughs] Hopefully, maybe.

Gemma Styles: So I feel like from what I have seen about your kind of content and the things you do, and especially with the book you have coming out, like you said, kind of teaching people about their emotions and about how their minds work before they necessarily need help. You said, you know, from personal experience, that's obviously something you're passionate about. But through the work that you've done over the years, is that something that you came to realise we don't generally have in our society, that sort of base understanding?

Dr Soph: 100%. So it wasn't just my personal experience, it was that when I trained, so the whole way through training to be a psychologist, you're working as a therapist, under supervision. And so during my training, and after that, I would see people for their initial assessments, so they've been on a waiting list, maybe for up to a year for all sorts of different things such as anxiety, depression, and OCD. And in that first session, it didn't really matter what service I was in, I was seeing the same thing. People who hadn't been given the basic information about their emotions, that had meant when they started to struggle, they understandably panicked thinking on my word, what does this mean about me? Does it mean I'm going mad? Now, I've been referred to a mental health service, does that mean other people think I'm going mad? You know, we've moved we've come a long way in terms of stigma. But still, there is a really entrenched idea that when we struggle with our mental health, there's something bad or wrong about us. So I started seeing that if we could get basic information to people before they struggled, we'd have less people on waiting lists, we'd have more people equipped with the basic knowledge that would at least take the edge off some of those initial experiences of distress. So yeah, I see this every day in clinic out of clinic amongst my friends amongst my family, when they're saying, Why do I feel this way? And what can I do about it?

Gemma Styles: So what are some of the kind of- would you say about a set of kind of basic emotions that are the ones that you come across all the time, like, the biggies that we don't know how to deal with, but everybody feels.

Dr Soph: The biggies are always anxiety and anger, I think. But I think what's rather than thinking about a basic set of emotions, I think it can be helpful to think about what are emotions at their most basic, for example, I think most of us have been taught that we're meant to strive for happiness. Yeah, and that everything else is a problem. Well, actually, there's no such thing as a good or bad emotion. They're all messages, they're all energy. So emotions are the energy that arises in our body to tell us our brain has detected something in our environment that it either wants us to turn towards, or away from. So let's imagine you're walking down the street, and you see something and you’re like, ooh, I fancy that meal. Or I fancy that person, or there's my friend, I'd love to hang out with them. When your brain detects any of these things. It for example, puts oxytocin, dopamine, endorphins through your body feel good chemicals and hormones. That cause you want to turn towards that thing that would help you survive and thrive. And we call that the emotions of happiness, interest and arousal, okay? However, if you were walking down the street, and you came across something scary, now it could be a tiger in your path, it could be that you step into the street and you hear a car noise in a distance. Or it could be that you sense that someone is insulting you. Because your brain interprets this as a threat. Instead of the feel good chemicals coming into your body, your heart starts to race, adrenalin starts to surge through your body, and you become you can become coiled like a spring about to burst into action, so to fight or to run. And we call these emotions, anxiety and fear. They're the ones that make you want to run away. And anger, which is the one that makes you want to turn towards and fight against the threat. So we could say that those emotions are our kind of our most basic emotions. But we could also say that at its most basic, all emotions tell us that our brain has detected something it wants us to attend to. Some of them tell us to turn towards the thing. And some of us tell us to turn away. There's no such thing as a good or bad emotion. All emotions start in our body, which is an issue in modern times, I think, because I don't know about you. But most people feel like their heads being carried around by their bodies. They're stuck in their thoughts, right?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I do. I know what you mean. And this is something that I always remember from when I was in therapy, and it's that what I now have done more reading, and I think this is quite a classic therapy question where that where people will ask you, you know, where are you feeling that in your body?

Dr Soph: Uh huh.

Gemma Styles: And when you first get asked that question, it's really difficult to answer yes, you're like, well, I'm thinking it. So I don't know. What do you mean?

Dr Soph: 100%. And it feels almost like a trap that question right? Like, in my heart in my hands. Is there a place that I meant to answer this? That question is purely meant to help you start turning your attention towards your body, because as I said, most of us are in our heads. But also, when we start realising that emotions have physical sensations, we can start becoming curious about when they arise rather than only noticing them when they're at their most extreme. So most of us don't realise we're stressed or anxious until our shoulders are in our ears. We're grinding our teeth, our brow is furrowed, and we had to have a headache. So when a therapist says where do you feel it, they're trying to get your curiosity up, help you start to become acquainted with your emotions, and help you so that in the future, you can nip these emotions in the bud when they start, rather than when it's gone too far for you to quickly pull them back.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. I think it also I think, personally, for me, I kind of weirdly found it helpful the other way around, as well. Because then noticing, where I might be feeling something so whether, for me that would be quite often getting quite tight chested, or, you know, feeling a rock in your stomach. It kind of was one of the things that made me realise how much my mental health could then affect how I felt physically. And it kind of made me take myself a bit more seriously when I feel physically unwell through through mental illness.

Dr Soph: Yes, yes. And do you think before that you hadn't really realised that your emotions could affect your physical state in such a way?

Gemma Styles: I think it's one of those things that you would kind of hear but it's, I don't know. I think it is almost an element of not taking yourself seriously and kind of being not understanding how that would possibly work. And then when you get it, you just kind of get it and I mean, I still don't know how it works like in a biological sense. I know that it's a thing.

Dr Soph: Yes, yes, yes, yes. And so yes, it can be when you notice there's a physical change in your body, it tells you Oh, I meant to do something now. And that could just be look after myself, it could be breathed through this experience. And also, I think we're going to get onto this later. But hopefully it starts exposing you to things that you might fear. So a lot of people fear having a tight chest. A lot of people who've had anxiety think, Oh my word, my chest is getting tight. Does this mean I about to have a panic attack. So the more we acquaint ourselves cute with curiosity to the sensations in our body, the more we can lower the fear levels around having emotions in the first place.

Gemma Styles: I have now adopted a weird habit through that whereby I now associate, that tight chest feeling was such a marker of me feeling anxious that I now and I'm sure people will tell me off for this, I now deliberately wear a bra that is a band size too big, because if I wear one that actually fits me, I feel like my chest is tight, and I can't deal with it.

Dr Soph: That's so interesting. So if you were in therapy, for panic, your therapist would most likely say to you that you need to do the opposite, right. So instead of doing loose bra band, which then allows you to use a tight chest as a sign of panic, which then increases your, your attachment, I suppose to the fear of panic happening, they would tell you to the opposite, which would, for example, be wear a tight bra band so that you constantly have the feeling of tightness around your chest so that over time with breathing exercises and grounding exercises, you learn, it's totally fine. If my chest is tight, it isn't a sign of danger whatsoever. I can have a tight chest and feel good at the same time. Does that make sense?

Gemma Styles: It really does make sense. I mean, welcome everyone to now a personal therapy session for me! About things I should not be doing okay, don't do as I do everyone!

Dr Soph: Tight bras suck. So don't listen to me. But in terms of if you were doing it to avoid the symptoms of anxiety, we'd need to go in the opposite direction.

Gemma Styles: Interesting. Okay, well, there's some homework for me. So I guess it kind of leads me on to, you know, even if we get to know our emotions and get to notice them. I feel like one of the difficult things now because you talk about, you know, we evolved these emotions, because a tiger might be in the road, as you said, you know, but now that's not really the case. So how do we start to deal with our emotions when we think they're coming at the wrong time?

Dr Soph: You've nailed something right, which is the idea that we have, we have emotions, because we evolved to use emotions to help us survive, right? So for example, our ancestors, they might have been sitting around the campfire, they might have heard a some kind of twig snap in the background. And they'd be like, oh, Tiger, okay, so that is when their fight or flight response would kick in. And they'd either be running for their life or turning towards it and fighting against it. If the sound was far off, they would slip into anxiety, and they would start kind of anticipating all the things that could go wrong. So emotions helped us survive. They're the reason that you and I are here. The issue is, as you say, nowadays, we're very unlikely to have a tiger stroll into our house. And we may be many of millennia later, but our brains haven't actually changed that much. And what I mean by that is, our brain treats any kind of threat as something you're meant to run or fight against, run from or fight against. So this means that you and I could slip into anxiety, for example, when thinking about a bra, like our tops being too tight, right? If we fear our racing heartbeat or a tight chest, our brain thinks tight chest, something is wrong, must activate fight or flight response, which means our heart starts racing, our muscles start tensing, we slip into preparing to run or fight when we're not actually in danger. Yeah, so I just wanted to recap on what it was that I think that you meant by what do we do when our brain kind of activates at the wrong time? Is that right? Yeah, yeah, yeah. So one of the things that's really important is for us to recognise that whilst all emotions have purpose, they sometimes arise at the wrong time. Right? So how do we know? Well, mindfulness can help us get to know our own emotions and can get help us recognise our patterns such as I feel anxious in these scenarios. I feel anxious or angry in those scenarios. But one of my favourite things is actually from Brene Brown. So Brene Brown talks about this idea of saying, What's the story I'm telling myself right now? Right. So if you notice an emotion arising inside your body, and you are unsure as to whether the emotion is kind of appropriate for the time that you are in, you can say to yourself, what is the story? I'm telling myself right now such as I'm going, I'm afraid I'm going to use your bra situation as the example. Is that okay?

Gemma Styles: Let's just, we'll call this the bra episode and get it in there.

Dr Soph: Okay. Okay, so let's say, so your chest’s feeling tight. Yes. And your brain slips into anxious or your thoughts go, Oh, my word. I'm having a panic attack. I have no idea. But the feeling that you're likely to feel is discomfort and maybe worry. Yeah, maybe anxiety. Now, you could tell you could go Okay, what's the story? I'm telling myself right now. The story I'm telling myself right now is that my chest is tight. And therefore this means I'm going to have a panic attack or something is wrong.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think my chest is feeling tight. So I need to calm down before this gets any worse.

Dr Soph: Mm hmm. So for you a tight chest does still equal danger, right?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I guess. Yeah.

Dr Soph: So the story I'm telling myself is my chest is getting tight, I must come down or, something else, something bad would happen. Now, once we know what the story is, we're telling ourselves we can go What's the evidence for or against that? Well, the evidence for this being dangerous is that in the past, maybe I have been overwhelmed by this emotion. Maybe the evidence against this being dangerous is that sometimes my chest is tight for no reason other than my bra is tight. Sometimes my chest is tight, because I've run up and down the stairs. Sometimes my chest is tight, because actually, in a normal human being day to day experience, our physical sensations change moment to moment, it's just totally normal. So this could be a spurious as in totally meaningless moment, of a tight chest. So therefore, the story I'm telling myself now is my chest is tight, it would be a good idea to use this as a time to calm down before it gets worse. But I might not actually be in any kind of danger anyway. And I can just breathe my way through this scenario. And see what happens. Does that make sense?

Gemma Styles: It does make sense. It's the kind of thing I think it needs so much practice.

Dr Soph: Oh, yeah. You have to practice when calm?

Gemma Styles: [laughing] Yeah, put, put the hours in. But I think it's also it's like you say this is, I mean, it's obviously helpful in this case, to use a particular scenario. So we're talking, talking, obviously, about me personally here. But it's the kind of thing where, obviously, you've written a book then that everyone can read? Are there certain patterns that we can all kind of adopt? Because I think, you know, everyone, we all feel like, our personalities, and who we are, and our emotions and what goes on inside of our head are completely unique to us. And to an extent they are We are all different people. No one's having the exact same experience. But then again, we're all you know, we're also wired in the same way to a certain extent. So what, what are the kinds of things that we can all? How can learning this help us essentially, is what I'm trying to say.

Dr Soph: Okay, so firstly, everyone, I think will benefit from adopting this idea of what is the story I'm telling myself right now, so ever, because even though we're all different, and our emotions really are shaped by multiple things, such as our DNA, such as the environment we grew up in, when we're young, if you grew up somewhere really calm, you're most likely to have a best chance at having nonreactive emotions. If you grew up somewhere dangerous, you obviously grew up in a state of fight or flight in high alert, which means that later on, you're most likely to see and feel danger in places where it might they might not be. Likewise, your emotions will depend on what experiences you're living through day to day. So we are all different in how we experience our emotions. But like you say, we're all wired similarly. And and I think this is the important part. Most of us grow up around the same societal rules. So for example, most of us now read the same magazines, we look on the same at the same images on social media. Most of us think that we're meant to be perfect in order to be enough. Yeah, yeah. So. So I think one of the first things is, is recognise Yes, we may all be different, but most people are struggling with the same thing on the inside. Most people are struggling with the idea that they're not worthy. They're struggling with the idea that other people are judging them for some aspect of who they are. Most people. Also, it's almost like, I think this might be a helpful way to think about it, whatever it is that you fear to be true about yourself in the world. It's almost like you've put on some sunglasses that only allow you to see the evidence, or that you're the evidence that your fears are true. Is this making sense?

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it is to me.

Dr Soph: Yes. Okay. So so for example, I'm having a day where I'm feeling particularly stupid or unworthy. I have many of those days. On those days. It's like I put on sunglasses where I walk around the world, and everything I see around me confirms that other people think I'm stupid and unworthy. Yes. So if we go back to the beginning conversation where I said, the basic information about emotions is that they arise when our brain thinks it's found threat. For example, in our environment. Nowadays, that threat may not be a tiger. But in my case, on the days where I fear I feel stupid and unworthy, that threat could be me having conversation with someone, and they look at me in a way where my brain says, oh my word they looked at me as if they do think I'm stupid. Suddenly, yes, fear, anxiety, and possibly anger is surging through my body, as our brain only really has one way of just to deal with threat. So that would be a scenario where I say, what is the story? I'm telling myself right now, I've been telling myself I'm really stupid. What's the evidence for it? I don't really have any apart from the pull the face. What's the evidence against it? I often worry about this. Hmm. So it sounds like it's probably me. Yes. And the other things you do to deal with it. Are have really good grounding techniques know how to manage your emotions. But I now realise your question is, why do you think people need this information?

Gemma Styles: All of all of these are good, good. It's all good information.

Dr Soph: When we know what emotions are, we can learn to observe them, not get carried away with them to know they're not dangerous. We can hold them lightly, as in challenge whether they are actually suggesting to us that we are under threat. Yeah, we can choose how to respond. We can realise all emotions are normal experiences. So we don't catastrophically misinterpret them, such as if I feel anxiety. I know. It's just anxiety. It's not my heart. It's not. I'm not going mad. I'm not having most people when they have their first panic attack, worry that they're either going mad, that they're having a heart attack, or they're going to die. Yeah. So when we know what emotions are, we can realise we’re medically safe. We just need to engage our coping skills. And the other thing is, we can see other people struggling and know how to respond. This is misinformation about emotions means that we see people who aren't happy and we say things like, chin up.

Gemma Styles: Yes, yeah.

Dr Soph: Pull yourself together. And that often leads on his struggling to feel belittled alone, and like there's something wrong with them.

Gemma Styles: I know we've got a question about this coming off again. So I'm excited. I'm excited to hear more about that as well. And I'm interested in what you were saying about the the element of our mental health and how we deal with things being as part of how we grew up. And I'm thinking about this specifically, because I saw someone on Instagram the other day, who I won't say her name, because I don't know if she would want me to or not. But she was talking about herself and her baby had been, you know, talking on stories about how she was feeling anxious about one thing in particular about going out of the house with her new baby. And basically a lot of the she got quite a few responses back, basically saying you're, you're making your baby anxious by you being anxious.

Dr Soph: That's very difficult.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's an interesting one, because then I'm kind of like, that feels really unfair. But also, how do you because then I was thinking I was like, Oh, well, if if I ever have a baby, like, I'm a really anxious person, like, Am I just by default gonna create anxious children? Or how you know, how, how can we balance that out?

Dr Soph: Yeah, balance is the key here, right? Because it ends up being very blaming.

Gemma Styles: Well, exactly. Which is totally unfair.

Dr Soph: Yeah. So any parent is allowed to be good enough, as a parent, there's already too much pressure to be a perfect parent who doesn't experience anxiety. So of course, a new parent feels anxious about taking their child out into the world. And what that parent I would imagine needs someone to sit with them and say, I understand why you feel this way. How can I support you to feel a little less anxious when you go out? What do you need to feel more secure, but people who say things like you're passing your anxiety on to your child, in one sense, I understand what they're saying, which is, if you grew up with an extremely anxious parent who is anxious 100% of the time, you are going to obviously learn anxious ways such as, it could be, for example, that you have a parent who says it's dangerous out into the world. You mustn't go out in the world, you mustn't go out there. A child will learn early on Oh, it's dangerous. I should feel anxious when I go outside. However, that is the extreme right? Babies are resilient. Yes, they're learning from their parents. But one or two or 10 occasions of an anxious parent feeling you know, a parent feeling anxious sorry, leaving the house is not going to create an anxious child who is going to be unable to manage their emotions in the future. So we do need quite a lot of nuance and balance in the messages. Yes.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so many people think they're experts on things. But also you see so many messages that are boiled down to one liners.

Dr Soph: Ugh, single sentences.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I feel I feel like you've talked about this very recently. And that's probably why it's coming into my mind.

Dr Soph: Because also, we could think about that as a really great opportunity. Right. So if a parents feeling anxious, and that is seen by their child, it sounds like this baby's too young. But let's say it's an actual child who's able to listen to language, it's a really great opportunity for that child to sit for that parent. Sorry, to say. You know what, I'm feeling a bit anxious. Because when we go out, there's lots of people there, and I have to navigate really difficult streets with this pram. When I feel anxious, I noticed that my chest is tight. When I feel anxious, I do a breathing exercise. When that is practised enough times, the child is given this beautiful opportunity to recognise, oh, that feeling is anxious, anxiety, I'm allowed to feel it. When I feel it. I'm not alone, because other people feel it too. And when I feel it, this is what I do. So actually, if there's any parents listening to this, you give your child a gift every time you feel an emotion, and you share with them what it is, why it is and how you're going to cope with it.

Gemma Styles: I love that. I think that's so great. And also, yeah, what- nobody, parents included, I just gonna switch off emotions for everyone else. And I don't think that would be a benefit.

Dr Soph: No, and I think that's what centuries of generations of people have tried to do, and it has not worked well. Yeah.

Gemma Styles: So I mean, we've obviously started talking quite specifically about parents and children. But would you say, for other kind of interpersonal relationships, you know, relationships with anyone else around you? When you learn more about your own emotions, is it then always easier to see that in other people? Is that- Is it kind of a different sort of emotional intelligence? If we're then putting that into play with somebody else?

Dr Soph: Hmm. I love that you use the term intent motional intelligence, I think it's a very misunderstood terminology, let's say. So emotional intelligence is the idea that you can monitor yours and other people's emotions and feelings that you can differentiate. So see the difference between different emotions. And you can use these emotions to guide your thinking and your behaviour. So the first step is obviously being able to recognise your own as you say, the second step is being able to put yourself in someone else's shoes, and it is kind of different. So some people get really good at recognising Oh, tightness in my chest means for example, anger, or a racing heartbeat means for example, anxiety. But not everyone is able to say, oh, when I look at that person, and they're kind of slumped over, maybe it means they're sad. So they are two slightly different things. But once you've kind of got a handle on what your emotions are, there are some kind of weird things you can do to get better at understanding other people's.

Gemma Styles: Go on…

Dr Soph: I say weird because I often think when I recommend this, that I should say to people, maybe don't let your friends or family see that you're doing this.

Gemma Styles: Okay, well, now I'm very intrigued.

Dr Soph: It's really simple. It just could get really weird. So basically, in our brain, we have mirror neurons, right? These are cells that specifically activate in response to what we see another person doing. So say for example, I now walked out of screen and then you heard me or you saw me stub my toe against something. Yeah, yes. As I shout ouch, you probably flinch.

Gemma Styles: Yes, yeah, in my head I flinched!

Dr Soph: Yes exactly! That's because when I stubbed my toe, the the mirror neurons in your brain activate almost as if it's happening to you. We can use that knowledge to help us get better at understanding other people. So what I recommend is, you start on purpose, mimicking other people's behaviour. This is why it gets weird, right?

Gemma Styles: I see the weirdness potential instantly in that sentence, yeah.

Dr Soph: Yeah, so you're sitting across from your friend, and you're kind of copying them right? You start copying is their spine straight? How does their face hang? Is their brow furrowed? Where are their hands? Because generally, you might look at someone and think, oh, they look open and think oh, that means they probably feel calm. But when you copy an open physical expression, you naturally feel more calm, you naturally feel more powerful. When you copy a hunched expression or furrowed brow, you get the physical experience and the reminder of what that feels like when you're like that you're reminded Oh, this could be sadness. Oh, this could be vulnerability. Oh, this could be some kind of feeling that I now need to reach out to my friend and support them with that.

Gemma Styles: So interesting. I bet you have to have to try quite carefully when you’re starting. I'm just imagining being sat across from someone at the dinner table, and them going, are you copying me? And me saying yes, yes I am!

Dr Soph: It was recommended to me by a doctor.

Gemma Styles: Actually, this is, you know, this is part of me understanding you, actually. So?

Dr Soph: Well, yeah, it's funny, because after I started recommending this, I started on purpose, trying it out in different scenarios. So I started doing it though, for example, on train platforms, or in busy cafes at someone who was kind of far away. So they didn't see that I was doing it. I was subtly walking next to people in the street mirroring their walks to see how they felt. So it can be useful to practice with people who can't see you're doing it.

Gemma Styles: What a fun activity. I really hope there's someone listening to this podcast episode right now who's walking down the street, and is now just looking around for people to copy. If that’s you! Go for it.

Dr Soph: Yeah, let us know how it goes. Maybe don't maybe don't do eye contact. At the same time. I think that's probably where we stumble into the realm of uncomfortable and maybe inappropriate.

Gemma Styles: Keep it subtle, guys. So when you say about when you were saying about how mirror neurons work, and how we’re how we react to other people, that kind of how empathy works then?

Dr Soph: Yes, yes. That's one theory of empathy. Absolutely. The idea that we almost innately but not this is difficult, because genetically, obviously, that will affect mirror neurons as well, your early experiences of people mirroring your own behaviour.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Dr Soph: So you see parents often mirroring their baby's behaviour. Yeah, it's lovely. That's one of the ways that babies learn. You know, it's absolutely incredible that babies come into the world, basically, with 30% of their brain fully developed, and your brain then wires together, depending on the interactions you have with other people. Honestly, neuroscience is wild. But yes, so empathy is, in part, this really innate ability to automatically feel someone else's feelings, because our brain is reacting as if it's happening to us at the same time.

Gemma Styles: That is absolutely fascinating. The human brain.

Dr Soph: Honestly, yes!

Gemma Styles: Yeah, so I guess, once you know, about all these emotions, and how you have them, what's coming to mind for me is then can you ever change the way that you react to things?

Dr Soph: Yeah.

Gemma Styles: Or is it just a matter of how you react, you know, the emotions you have are, what you're going to have? And you just change how you respond to them or notice them? Or by knowing more about this? Can you actually start to change the way that you react to things in the first place?

Dr Soph: Yeah, 100% it's difficult because we could do a whole podcast, just answering that question. Okay.

Gemma Styles: Well, maybe one day!

Dr Soph: I'm gonna keep it short, I'm going to keep it short. Okay. So firstly, our emotional responses are absolutely not fixed. So for example, if we just take mindfulness, So mindfulness is paying attention to the present moment on purpose, non judgmentally. It's bringing yourself back to the present moment over and over again, when we practice mindfulness, the first reason we do it is to create a gap between our knee jerk emotional response and how we choose to act. So mindfulness at first goes to your second point, which is, is it just that we change how we respond to our emotions. But mindfulness, when we practice it consistently, has been shown to change the structure of our brain. And one of those changes is that our amygdala shrinks. Now our amygdala is the fear centre, one of the fear centres of our brain. If it is smaller, it can't activate as strongly, which means when you go into high stress or high anxiety environments later on, you simply don't feel as much stress or anxiety. So that's one concrete example of how absolutely you can change the way that you emotionally respond in the first place, as well as how you respond to the emotions in turn. And there's about 700 other reasons I could give you, but I'm not going to do that right now.

Gemma Styles: That’s fair. [both laugh] I mean, I think that's always nice to hear. I mean, when you have these conversations, and people listening, who are going to be most invested in this are people who already feel like they struggle to deal with emotions that they have. So I feel like having at least that knowledge that you're not necessarily you don't necessarily have to feel exactly this way forever. Like there are actually things you can do to change. It's not just then ignoring the feelings or dealing dealing with them, even it’s you can stop that happening.

Dr Soph: Yeah, and there's this really, I think, have you heard of the anxiety equation?

Gemma Styles: No.

Dr Soph: Okay. This for me was a game as someone who's had panic attacks this for me was a game changer. And it is, if I was to draw it out, obviously, this is an audio but if I was draw it out, you imagine it says anxiety equals, okay? Estimation of threat, and then you'd have a line underneath it like it's an equation Yes. And below that estimation of resources to cope. So this means that our anxiety basically builds up depending on how dangerous we think something is, and how able we think we are to cope with the situation should it arise. Yeah, yeah. So this means that Firstly, simply knowing that you are going to be able to cope and that emotions change, right, that you don't always have to feel this way that if you have panic attacks, it's not always going to be terrible, can help tip the equation back in your favour. Yeah, simply knowing how to assess how actually how dangerous something is, will help tip the equation back in your favour. Simply knowing that you have five to 10 coping resources should the worst happen, tips the equation back in your favour. And when the equation has tipped back in your favour, you feel less anxiety. So there’s many different things you can do to decrease the amount of emotion you feel in the first place, as well as cope with it once it's arisen.

Gemma Styles: Fabulous. I definitely, I'll be working on shrinking my amygdala from now until the end of time.

Dr Soph: At the same time as shrinking that bra band, to get the tightness around your chest.

Gemma Styles: I've got so much work to do!

Q&A

Gemma Styles: As you know, each week, my guest and I will be answering some of your questions. And the first one comes in from Ellie, and she says,

I'm really bad at expressing my emotions. For example, I'll see a friend upset and all I can do is give a hug and say I love you. I get really flustered and anxious about saying the wrong thing. I was wondering if you had any tips on dealing with other people's emotions? and What to say?

Dr Soph: Yeah, 100% I think it's become increasingly difficult since there's posts out there saying don't say this. Don't say that. This is toxic positivity, for example.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Dr Soph: So firstly, I think it's really hard to know how to sit with someone else's distress. Because like I said, empathy means when we see someone else struggling, we struggle too. So firstly, giving someone a hug and saying I love you is a great place to start, do not beat yourself up. That is excellent. You just need some, you know, next steps. So firstly, when you notice someone is struggling, take a slow, deep breath. Notice your feet on the floor. So this will ground you into the present moment. Don't feel like you need to rush in with a response and have some stock phrases handy. So what I mean by this is phrases you've already written down and practised when calm, and you just trot them out. When you see someone else is distressed such as let's say, you've told me you're going through something really hard. I'd say that sounds so difficult. I'm so sorry you're going through this. Thank you for telling me though. Do you want to talk about it? So as you hear me say that just write it down. Practice that when calm. Depending on their response, you could then say, I really want to be here for you. I want to support you. How can I support you? Do you want us to sit and talk about it? Or should we try to problem solve this together? Equally? If you'd rather be distracted, we can totally do something else.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Dr Soph: Write them down, repeat them when calm, trot them out when someone else is distressed, and honestly, leave it to the other person, then they will tell you what they need.

Gemma Styles: I think that's really good advice. I think I totally get the the fear of saying the wrong thing to somebody when they're already feeling really upset. But yeah, I think for sure, like you say kind of giving them the option as well as that, you know, would you like this? Or would you like that? Or neither? Just let me know, it was kind of-

Dr Soph: Yeah, yeah. And if someone is totally distressed, you don't need to say anything, right. One of the things that humans do, which is incredible is we co-regulate, which means that we can use the other person's heart rate, breathing rate, that calm nervous system to calm ourselves down. So if someone is like, for example, having a panic attack, or is extremely angry or upset, talking to them may not feel appropriate, right? Because they're so overwhelmed already. In which case, if you know them, you could put your arm around them like you say with the hug and simply breathe with them. So make your breathing a little bit louder, calm and soothed and just inhale and exhale. And just keep doing that and you will notice the other person's nervous system will slowly and steadily start to ground itself naturally.

Gemma Styles: I mean that is also fascinating. Breathing. Just pass on your breathing to someone I love that.

Dr Soph: It's so crazy. We now know that for example, if someone is in pain and they're physically touched, so like a hand to the arm, for example, by someone they love, their pain levels decrease. Humans are meant to be together. They're not meant to be isolated like we've been in lockdown. What happens when humans are near each other is wild. It's incredible.

Gemma Styles: I know. It's one of those things where people will tell each other to come, you know, breathe, take a deep breath, or well, but I didn't know it could actually, I could just do it yourself. And then it kind of passes it on. I love that.

Dr Soph: Yeah. Also, if someone says to you calm down or breathe, I guarantee it's a recipe for a terrible emotion.

Gemma Styles: [laughs] Yes. Yeah. Why? Why are you feeling anxious? Just calm down? There's nothing wrong. Calm down. Oh well, that’s always made me feel better.

Dr Soph: Yeah it’s a disaster.

Gemma Styles: Next question is from Talia, who asked,

Is there a way for us to trick our brain into enabling us to feel a different emotion when going through stress or anxiety? I definitely feel as if, for example, before an exam, I get so anxious and stressed that once I go into the exam room, I tend to overthink and forget a lot of information that was in my brain.

Dr Soph: Hmm, yeah, I've been there. I totally understand that. So there's lots and lots and lots of different things you can do. But again, I'm just going to focus on one, okay. So when you know that you, for example, have breathing exercises, and grounding exercises under your belt that helps you with stress and anxiety. And when you know that stress and anxiety can pass, you can do this one thing that's brilliant, and it's again going to blow your mind I think about how our brains work. You can use your imagination to prepare you for this, okay? So our brain doesn't know the difference between you doing something in real life or imagining doing something in real life. So this means like athletes, for example, imagine doing the Olympic events before doing it so that when they get into that scenario, anxiety or stress doesn't derail them, they can just go through the motions and get the job done. So get yourself some breathing exercises, that you know work for you and visualise yourself whilst doing the breathing exercise, in that exam room. Visualise yourself in whatever it is you're gonna wear. Yeah, with whatever drink it is in hand, whichever like, I don't know whatever you have with you. Visualise yourself, walking into that room, feeling calm. Visualise yourself sitting down feeling calm. Visualise yourself doing the breathing exercise as you start the exam. Visualise yourself, noticing stress arising and going. It's okay. I have a breathing exercise at my hands. This will pass. Visualise yourself starting the exam. If at any point your brain spirals into, oh, my God, this is too much. I'm really overwhelmed. Yes, simply imagine, this is like a video, hit rewind, go back to the bit before start breathing again. And go through that part again, until you’ve visualised a number of times going into that exam feeling calm. I know this sounds like I'm saying something that's just like magic. Doesn't seem like it could make a difference. But honestly, this has been proven to work time and time again, people can learn how to play the piano without actually playing the piano by visualising it, it is, again, another incredible brain trick that once you know what you can use to help you.

Gemma Styles: I really like that. And it also makes me think of things that I have kind of done when I've been anxious. That kind of now makes sense. Like, yeah, Would you say that's kind of the thing? You know, how a lot of anxious people, for example, if they're going somewhere new?

Dr Soph: Yes.

Gemma Styles: So I've done this where I looked up kind of like pictures of the place or like pictures of a restaurant or something so that I know more about what it's going to be like before I get I feel like that kind of plays into the same thing I've kind of then you can visualise it and know what it's going to be like.

Dr Soph: Yes, exactly. So once you know what you're up against, and you can visualise yourself in that restaurant, for example, wherever it is that you're going. Once you can visualise yourself breathing and being calm. Then when you go there, your brain already has an example of you having done this calmly, which means it thinks you're in less danger this time than if you went there for the first time in your brain is going novelty, novelty novelty, abort! Yeah.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. I love it when things just make sense. Backed up by science. Okay, next question is from Trina and is more about, you know, dealing with other people. So she says,

When I'm pressured on stuff that I'm doing, I usually tend to hurt people verbally in the process. What can I do to relieve the pressure and to stop hurting people eventually?

Dr Soph: So, great question. A lot of when we are under pressure when we're feeling stressed, are very close to the edge. Right? So when a demand is made of us, or even someone just speaks to us, when we're kind of eight out of 10 stressed, simply hearing someone talk can cause us to tip to 10 out of 10 stressed, and we lash out. So long term, I would say. And mindfulness really isn't the answer to everything. But it just is so good for anyone who wants to slow down their experiences. So that when, for example, you're under pressure, and the knee jerk or the knee jerk impulse is to respond strongly. Mindfulness over time will allow you to notice that urge and not respond in that way. But in the short term, now, I don't know what kind of pressure it is that Trina's talking about. But for Trina, I would again suggest these kind of stock phrases. For example, if someone you know, comes to you and asks you something, when you're already under pressure, have things that you know, you could say such as I've got a lot on my plate right now, I'm feeling really overwhelmed. I will get back to you soon on that request. If it's someone asked you to do something. Or something like, I'm sorry, if I seem angry right now, I'm really stressed out. And I realise it's coming out in a different way, I just need a moment. If you've slipped into anger, and you've gone too far, simply excuse yourself in that situation. Once you're in the red zone, it's impossible to be logical so just, Sorry, I just need a break, walk away, breathe, ground yourself, revisit it or revisit that person when you're calm and if necessary apologise, you know, relationships can actually survive upheaval and arguments. As long as there's reconnection at the end. As long as someone says, that thing that happened, I'm owning it. I'm really sorry, this is what I'm doing to make sure it doesn't happen again in the future. And that's when we come full circle back to mindfulness as being one of the ways to manage the stress response in your future situations.

Gemma Styles: Perfect. We do love a good circle. Okay, our last question is a difficult one and quite upsetting one, I think it could be but this question is from Harnaaz. And she says,

I'm a 16 year old girl and I live in India. Due to the pandemic, my mental health is suffering and over here therapy or even expecting your own parents to understand about mental health problems is too much to ask. So I wanted to ask, is there any way I can treat my depression by myself?

Dr Soph: Oh this is such a toughy. And it's so common, right? So many people are struggling alone right now without access to resources, without people they can talk to. And therapists, what makes it hard as well is that therapists aren't are able to give out specific advice. It wouldn't be ethical or legal. But what I can say are a few things. One, the internet is an incredible place. Where nowadays, for example, on Instagram, you can find whole communities of people talking about their mental health and supporting each other. So while you may not be able to talk to your parents, there may be something, a group or a person already talking about these issues online, who will make you feel seen and heard. So look online for a group that talks about depression, for example. The next thing is, for example, Healthline, which is healthline.com. I think it is, is a great resource. And I think this really recently they came out with an article called 12 Books that shine a light on depression in 2021, that has a great list of self help, that will give you the tips and tricks to understand yourself immediately. I really do think community is the main answer here. But let me just give you a brief rundown of what therapists do generally. Okay. So say someone came to me and said, I'm feeling depressed. I wouldn't just do assessments, I would be thinking, what is causing this low mood? Is it something that is happening in this in this moment? Are they being bullied? Is it that they're feeling lonely? Is it that multiple things have happened in their past that they need to deal with? Sometimes also, people come and they say, my life is great. I don't know why I'm struggling. So the first thing is a therapist is thinking why now, what is happening for you or to you? Once they've kind of hit upon some kind of answer, they might think about how can we change that scenario? So for example, in the pandemic, a lot of people are what we'd call situationally or environmentally lonely. This means the issue isn't actually their friendship groups. It's the fact that pandemic has taken away so many of their connections. So in that scenario, the first thing we would do is okay, how do we connect you to as many communities as you feel willing and able to attend? Or that you feel safe in to start changing that environment? So the first thing is we would identify what is the cause? And can we change that? We would then think, what are the maintaining factors? So what are the things keeping you feeling this way? Is it for example, negative self talk and shame. In which case, we teach self compassion. Now, if you go online, you're going to find loads of free compassion exercises. Kristin Neff, for example, does lots of free brilliant guided exercises you can practice now, another thing might be is it that because your mood has dropped, you're feeling demotivated, unable to engage in the activities that just naturally make you feel better, in which case, and this one is really hard when you're feeling really, really low. Keeping an activity journal is one of the things that can help some people. So you write down a list of things that I know used to make me feel better, then you schedule into your day, and you write after each activity, how your mood feels out of 10. So for example, it may be that getting out of bed didn't change your mood. But that call with your family that you didn't really want actually boosted your mood yet. So you keep a diary of that, and you keep increasing things, activities that make you feel good, slowly activating you more. So I can't tell you specifically what to do. But community, resources that are online, and thinking in the ways that I just shared might give you a place to start when you're feeling very low. But first thing to do find someone you can share with please. Because when you feel depressed, doing any of the things I just said can feel deeply overwhelming.

Gemma Styles: Thank you so much for that. I feel like it's it's one of those. It's a really difficult question. Because like you say, you don't, when you don't know someone individually, it's hard to advise. But I equally know that there are so many people, whether it's because of the pandemic or whether they just don't have access that will be really struggling. And you know, we can say that, yeah, therapy would be really helpful for most people. But if you actually don't have that option, I think I really appreciate you know, you being able to share some some things that people could do for themselves.

Dr Soph: Absolutely. And honestly, the internet is a an incredible resource of people writing blogs on exactly this topic. So if you have time and access to the internet, find a qualified therapist who is blogging about it, and read what they've put into writing.

Gemma Styles: Remember, if you want to get in touch with us or have any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com. So before you go, I've got three things that I ask of every guest and that's if people listening want to find out more about what we've been talking about? Could you recommend us something to read something to listen to? And something to watch, please?

Dr Soph: Yeah. Okay. So I can't believe I'm gonna say this it’s so un-British. Am I allowed to recommend my own book? For the read?

Gemma Styles: Yes, please do. Yes, absolutely.

Dr Soph: It's so funny, because I'm not recommending it because I'm like, Oh, my word. I wrote this brilliant book. I'm actually terrified about my book coming into the world, I feel incredibly exposed. But it's just that I wrote A Manual for Being Human for exactly this purpose. I wrote it so that people could see how every moment across the lifespan might affect how they feel right now. So that they could answer themselves without access to therapy. Why do they feel the way they do? What's keeping them here and how to move forwards. So A Manual for Being Human which is out in July, shameless plug, is the book I recommend that people read. Was the next one what do people what should people listen to?

Gemma Styles: Yes, something to listen to, and then something to watch.

Dr Soph: Okay, so in terms of what to listen to, and what to watch, I've chosen something that chosen two things that don't necessarily go with what we're talking about, but there's a reason behind it. Okay. So to listen, I recommend listening to The Midnight Library, which is a book by Matt Haig. And it isn't a self help book. Have you read it?

Gemma Styles: It's on my it's next in my pile of books to read. I'm really excited about it.

Dr Soph: Amazing. Oh my god, it's so good. It's so good. And the audio is narrated so beautifully. And the reason I recommend this is because often when we're learning about ourselves, when we're reading self help, we can feel a little bit defensive. It can feel a bit like you're being told what to do and being told about yourself. In The Midnight Library, you're hearing a story of a woman who is depressed who wants to end her life, and you go on the journey with her. It's just so incredible. You're able to learn these valuable life lessons, invaluable life lessons, without that constant self reflection. So you learn so much without feeling put on the spot. So I just think that is one of the best, most beautiful novels of the year. That can help us with our psychology without feeling like we're being told what to do. And in terms of what to watch, okay, this is not psychology. And it is Paddington 2.

Gemma Styles: Okay!

Dr Soph: Paddington 2. I feel like we've had such a hard time over the last year that everyone must should watch Paddington 2 it's a life affirming feel good movie, that doesn't take itself too seriously, and I think provides what we all need right now, which is a little bit of a reminder that there is good in the world, and that we can be there for each other. And yeah, I don't think there's anything more important than that.

Gemma Styles: That's a cute one. I love that. I admit, I haven't seen the first Paddington, which I don't know how I've managed to avoid it. Because one of my god kids was the biggest Paddington obsessive, you could ever find and I've somehow managed to be on the swings, not watching Paddington when I've hung out with them.

Dr Soph: Well, I recommend watching the first 30 minutes of Paddington one and then skipping the ending and go straight into Paddington 2.

Gemma Styles: Oh, okay! This is fighting talk for Paddington 1. [both laugh]

outro

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Gemma Styles: Thank you so much for listening. And thank you, Dr Soph for your wonderful insights. If you've enjoyed the episode, please do subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using. And if you've got an extra minute, you can rate and review as well. The reviews make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week!