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INTRO

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Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who’ll help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about climate justice: the role of social media in connecting and communicating our causes, why it's important to look beyond our individual actions and the various roles that we can all play in activist communities. So joining me this week is Mikaela Loach. Mikaela is a climate justice activist, a medical student and podcaster. She is currently part of a litigation campaign called Paid to Pollute, which is taking the UK government to court over the tax breaks given to big polluting oil and gas companies in the North Sea. 

Mikaela Loach: One hundred companies are responsible for 71% of greenhouse gas emissions, but only 20 companies are responsible for a third of greenhouse gas emissions since the pre-industrial area. And they have contributed so much more than any of us individually will have contributed. And they benefit, I think, in many ways from us focussing just on like reducing our individual plastic waste, but not talking about why do we even have plastic in the first place? 

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DISCUSSION

Gemma Styles: You, all of the work that you do now, aside from being a medical student and very busy in that respect, is in climate justice and activism around that.

Mikaela Loach: Mm hmm.

Gemma Styles: I'd be interested to know, can you kind of pinpoint a time… can you kind of remember when you became more aware or more involved in climate activism? 

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, for sure. I think for me, probably like a lot of people, I was aware that the climate crisis was happening. I cared about it, but I don't think I realised the, the weight of it and how how big it was and how the impacts are happening today. And then I was also like really aware of refugee rights issues, especially when the jungle in Calais was in the news all the time. And that's when I got involved with kind of refugee rights work and then at the same time is getting involved with refugee stuff, I was also starting to change lifestyle things for the climate because I thought that was the way that we could tackle the climate crisis best was if we all went vegan or like quit fast fashion, all those different things. That's what I thought during that time was best so I did all that stuff. At the same time as there was this refugee rights stuff going on. And then I don't, I don't remember the exact like day it hit me. But at some point I realised that the climate crisis is so much bigger than our kind of individual lifestyle choices. And in order to create change, we need like big structural change and not just incremental kind of each person changing their lifestyle or things like that. And I think that was when I realised that and found out that 100 companies are responsible for 71 percent of all greenhouse gas emissions. And so therefore, if 100 companies are responsible for that huge amount, then me going like spending many of my hours going to five different shops to buy my groceries, to make sure that plastic free might not be the best use of my time? And maybe if I use it instead to be in organising and activist groups and trying to like push for big structural change that would be better. And then I also realised at that time that, the kind of refugee rights issues that I cared about are so inherently connected to climate and to climate change and to the climate crisis, because how, of how the climate crisis is the great multiplier of many inequalities. It makes all of the inequalities that already exist bigger, as how it impacts all of us is not the same, as in, it's dependent upon these kind of structures and systems of oppression. And so I think this was probably a couple of years ago, a few years ago. And I got involved at first in Extinction Rebellion, I'm no longer involved with them, but with other kind of groups in Scotland, and I kind of got involved in organising and activism and doing actions and trying to shift the narrative, the media as well. And then that's all kind of gone on to now, I'm a claimant on a court case, which I'm sure we’ll talk a bit more about later. But yeah, it was kind of a bit of a journey, but it's not- I think I relate to people who care a lot and are trying their best to do what they can, but don't really know what is the best thing to do, because it all feels really overwhelming.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Mikaela Loach: And I think a lot of the time we're told the best thing to do is, is just this lifestyle stuff. And whilst I see that as important, I think there's, there's, we can't make it just about that because when we make it just about lifestyle. We're assuming that everyone has the same amount of agency about what they can change, all that kind of stuff. And I think that we can be more expansive in how we think about it. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. I'd love to know, hearing you talk about it, how you kind of found the different groups that you've got involved with, like, was that more like a university centred thing or because I know a lot of people will listen and kind of think, oh, well, I'm interested. But A, I don't know maybe where to find groups or what to do or like, you know, how perfect do I have to be at my activism before I can join a group. Like can you just join if you're interested or do you already have to have done things or..?

Mikaela Loach: No, no, no. Like I always say that like any, anyone should join and no one needs to be, no one need to be perfect at all. Like it shouldn't, it’s not it's not like you have to fill out a form like are you are you a vegan? Have you bought fast fashion? [laughs] It's very much like we need as many people as possible to do whatever they can. I actually heard in a meeting recently, someone said like one of the saddest things is someone doing nothing because they thought the little thing that they could do wouldn't matter… and so they did nothing instead. And I think that, like, even if you can only give like ten minutes a week, I don’t know, or half an hour a week or something to help out with a group that that's important. And it doesn’t matter, it doesn't have to be perfect, no matter what you're doing I think that like, being part of movements is so important, I think. So how I got involved, at first, I think first through Calais was where I realised, I kind of got involved with activism first because where I grew up, I grew up in in Surrey in the home counties [laughs] and not in a space, not an activist space at all. I grew up in the middle of the countryside I wasn’t near a city or anything like that. And the area I grew up in wasn't very activist-y and I didn't really know people who did a lot of this stuff. And so my engagement with this stuff was from social media a lot at first, when I was around when I was at school, it was very much like seeing other people on social media do things and then learning from them how they got involved. And for me, the jumping point was going to Calais and volunteering, which I found out through social media I think. I think some people in social media went and I found out how to go. And then through meeting those people and kind of being friends with them on Facebook, I'd see them share about other groups. And that's how I like joined other groups. And saw Facebook events for groups. And then at uni did get involved with some university based activism stuff. But a lot of it's been just community groups, which I found a lot of on Facebook? I'm going to be honest, found them on Facebook, I think, or Instagram and things like that. I think if anyone is like I don't know where any of these groups are, just have a search on Facebook or something for an issue you care about and then your area, and there'll probably be a group somewhere or even a group that’s people that care about that issue. And then you could post on it saying, like, I really want to join a group in this area and get involved. I know that, like, a lot of people have found places through that stuff. And it's- you don't have to be perfect. I really want everyone- I think- it makes me really sad that kind of this idea of having to have this perfect carbon footprint and everything has held us back in so many ways. And we need to remember that the idea of a carbon footprint was popularised by BP, British Petroleum, which is a like a fossil fuel company who’ve popularised this idea of individual responsibility. Because when we focus so much on ourselves and like each other and less so on, these big corporations and these companies, they’re getting away with it and we’re just kind of squabbling between each other. And so I think we need to remember that it is, it's more than that. And doing action is really important. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. It's interesting you obviously talking about social media in terms of like Facebook and that having a role in how you find different groups and how you then connect to people who've got similar interests. How do you kind of feel about social media and its role in activism now? Because I think it can be a little bit thorny, like it's not always 100 percent great, but I think it also has really changed the way that people get involved and has changed… I feel like it's created a lot more people who feel like they're part of movements? Because you can be involved in such, in such an online way quite easily to access. 

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, I think I think social media gets a lot of flak and I think I give it a lot of flak as well myself, [both laughing] even as someone who spends a lot of time on it. But we cannot, like, kind of negate the impact it has and it has had. I even think about myself and how I first was aware of what was going on in Calais, for example, on like a more human level because of social media and actually I should probably explain — if people don't know what's going on in Calais, basically Calais is on the border of the UK and France and in kind of, actually probably like six or seven years ago maybe..? It was really popularised in the news because there was a big refugee camp there of people who are trying to make the crossing to the UK because there are no safe routes of travel to the UK for people who are seeking asylum and seeking asylum is a human right. But the UK doesn't offer safe routes of travel for people and so people end up stuck in Calais, trying to make the really dangerous crossing themselves and whatever they can, wherever they can find. And on social media, I thought that's how I like became aware of that as a very human issue and outside of traditional media and how they decide to communicate it. And that's why I think social media has a huge amount of power, because it can, it can- that also can be quite bad in some ways because there’s maybe not as much like, editorial control over what's putting out and fake news can end up getting out. But also we can have some more control over the narrative and people can share like actual lived experience and experience from the ground. And we can get other stories out there. And yeah, I think I think social media is really- it can be really great. It can be super overwhelming. And I think sometimes I think especially during the pandemic, I found that even in movement spaces, I think probably because we've been stuck on social media so much, we've been kind of infighting so much more than we need to. And instead, and forgetting that, like the fight is out there, it's not really between all of us. But yeah, it's a tricky balance, I think. But I do think social media is really important, but we try to be very careful in how we use it. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. I think, I mean, we started touching on this before, but I definitely wanted to ask you, I mean, I kind of already know what you're going to say, but to kind of talk a little bit more about individual responsibility and that not being the main thing, because as we talk about, you know, social media and Instagram and stuff like that, we do have a bit more control over the narrative of talking about climate change than maybe you would have on major news websites or something like that, for example. But I feel like recently it has been tipping slightly? There's still obviously a lot about reducing plastic and what can we do at home and yes, carbon footprints. And I do think all of that is so important. However, I am seeing more and more about, you know, don't feel like a bad person because you can't do all this perfectly. It's not designed for you to do it perfectly. It's not all about individual responsibility. So… what else is it about instead?

Mikaela Loach: Mhm. Yeah. I think I've definitely seen that kind of push in the narrative which is really great even in such a short space of time. I even think like two years ago when I started using social media more for communicating these kind of things, I felt like a bit more alone in talking about the structural things. Whereas now I feel like almost, not everyone, but a lot of people that I see at least are always adding in the nuance there that’s necessary. And I think what's necessary here is that, like, obviously our lifestyle and behaviour change is important and has an impact on changing the impact we have on the climate and things like that, and resisting climate change and mitigating the effects of climate change. But that's not all of it. One hundred companies are responsible for seventy one percent of greenhouse gas emissions, but only 20 companies were responsible for a third of greenhouse gas emissions since the pre-industrial area. And those are pretty much all fossil fuel companies. And they have contributed so much more than any of us individually will have contributed. And they benefit, I think, in many ways from us focussing just on like reducing our individual plastic waste, but not talking about why do we even have plastic in the first place? Like why is it so difficult for us to reduce our plastic waste in the first place and they’ll say that we need to take shorter showers and do all the- and turn off the lights when we leave the house, whilst they are causing so much destruction to our natural environment.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Mikaela Loach: And to people and causing human rights abuses. And so I think what we need to do is create structural change. So we need to see that the climate crisis is a symptom of a bigger structural issue. The climate crisis is… Yeah, it is a symptom of exploitation and extractivism and capitalism, as we see it now, and how it's running away with and extracting everything from the Earth and from each other. And we need to realise that if it's just a symptom, we need to go to the root cause and we can't just treat the symptom. And so that requires us to have big system change. And that's why I think that, yeah, we do these lifestyle things, but we also get involved in organising and organising basically just means being part of movements and giving our time and our skills, whatever those might be and whatever your skills or if they have no skills, if you have no skills at all, you still will be helpful in some way because change in history has happened through ordinary people coming, not extraordinary people, but ordinary people coming together and caring enough to do something about these big issues and push the narrative and also push organisations and institutions and governments into causing change. Change is not a passive thing. It's not something that just happens. And it really frustrates me, this kind of argument of like, oh, things will just get better. So there's no point doing anything. But the only reason things are getting better is because people are doing things. And so we have to be part of the people doing those things. So, yeah, I think it's just about shifting, shifting that those narratives, as much as we can. And I think that's what I see a lot of my role, especially on social media being, is, as just as just about shifting that narrative, because I think a big part of activism is, is one like making an injury that already exists visible? So that we can treat it and then working out how we can shift what is currently seen as like acceptable and normal, and how can we make that more equitable and better for all of us? 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. So I mean, then we talk about, OK, so just individual responsibility. Yes, take responsibility for yourself, but it's not enough. And what we need to be doing is then looking at all these other people and taking bigger, more collective actions, which is something I am aware of… But it's one of those things where I’d be like, I don't necessarily know how to do that?

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, yeah.

Gemma Styles: But you have absolutely gone for it [Mikaela laughs] and are… Let's talk a little bit about your, your new campaign and your lawsuit essentially, if I’ve phrased that right? 

Mikaela Loach: Yeah! Yeah. It still feels weird to say, I think because we had to be really quiet about it for so long that we were working on this ~secretly~ for months. And so it feels really weird to be able to talk to people about it. But I think for me, I've had a big journey from going from the lifestyle stuff and it very much being like sustainability for me and then now working out what is sustainability for like for we, for all of us, like, how can I make these things more accessible to everyone? I think that's why I think through my work, I think a big part of that is is changing the structural stuff. So I feel like I've gone on this journey of doing all of the things that we're told to do to mitigate the impacts of the climate crisis, to create a more just future for all of us. And then now I made it to the point where I'm taking the government to court. I'm one of three clai- [laughs] I'm one of three claimants on a court case, which- and the campaign around it's called Paid to Pollute. And basically, a quick summary is that the government, the UK government this is, give huge amounts of subsidies and tax breaks to oil and gas producers in the North Sea. The North Sea is where, in the UK, a lot of the oil and gas extraction happens. So oil and gas is a fossil fuel that gets extracted from North Sea and then that's what gets burnt and releases a lot of emissions. And the UK government give companies like Shell and BP and these big oil companies, oil and gas companies, they give them tax breaks and subsidies. So that basically means they are paying them to do that work. They're paying them to extract and they're paying them out of public money. So public money that should be being used for public good. They're paying to these companies that already pay their CEOs millions in bonuses every year. These companies that have caused human rights abuses worldwide, these companies that could choose to instead fund renewables right now, but instead are still trying to extract as much oil and gas out of the ground as possible, which we know will mean that we’ll have runaway climate change if they continue this way. So basically, we're taking the UK government to court to say that their strategy, which gives these subsidies and these tax breaks, is wrong and is harmful. And they should they should reflect on that, given the fact that they have committed to the Paris Climate Agreement and instead they should be funding and investing into our future, into a transition away from oil and gas that puts workers rights at the centre, that protects workers and that protects all of us and instead invests in our future rather than us all being sacrificed for profit, which I feel like is what's happening. Because you have this government that says they have “no magic money tree” and then are giving, since 2016 have given 3.2 billion pounds of public money to North Sea oil and gas producers.

Gemma Styles: Oooof.

Mikaela Loach: I know that’s a huge number. It's really hard to quantify how big that is, but that’s a huge amount of money to companies that already have like huge amounts of money. Also companies who say they care about workers rights, but they'll lay off their workers left, right and centre, but then use that as a defence. And companies that know and have known for a long, long, long time they've been causing climate destruction and continue to do it. And I think it's just so frustrating because we have such an opportunity, I think now, to invest in a better future. So many climate solutions that exist actually could make the world better for all of us. Which I think is so exciting and amazing and it's just frustrating that our government isn't doing that when they have the opportunity and the capability and the resources to be able to do that. And so I think this is just another tactic in many tactics to try and hold the government accountable for what they say they're doing and make sure that they're actually looking out for all of us and looking out for the public. 

Gemma Styles: I mean, as a UK taxpayer, I'm all for not [laughs] not having all of this public money sent to dig up more stuff out the ground that should very well be staying there. I'd love to know how that came about because… yeah it’s one of these things where you just hear it and it's like, oh, well, you know, [Mikaela laughs] she's taking the government to court. How does that actually happen? Because I know you're you're not the only claimant on, in the campaign either. So is that something that came about through a climate action group that you were already a part of? 

Mikaela Loach: So if we kind of rewind, we're going to rewind everyone taking, taking you back. We're in the TARDIS. We've gone back to October. I'm really exposing myself as like, a massive Dr Who geek [both laughing] taking us back to October 2018. So when I was a part of Extinction Rebellion in Scotland, I went down to London. So I don't if people remember. But that was a huge action that happened. This was… yeah no sorry 2019, 2019 and the October rebellion. So basically we did a load of roadblocks across London. We came down from Scotland. We had a site outside of the Department for Business, Energy and Industrial Strategy, which is outside Westminster Abbey. And we blocked the road there to talk about these subsidies to try and highlight the fact that these subsidies are happening, that the government is funding the oil and gas industry. During that time, I actually, like, it was my first time that I’d locked on, so I had my arm in a lock on tube and I was in a police cordon until like 1:00 in the morning, I think it was or some middle of the night for about eight hours. And I put myself under, like risk of arrest in order to hold our site and to raise awareness for the fact that this issue was happening. So this is the same department now, that we, we’re back in these days, that we're now taking to court. So it feels like a nice like, arc, of having to call them out every every moment. And so through doing that work and through the climate work that I kind of am involved with in Scotland, I got in, connected with a lot of different people, including Tessa Khan, who is a legend and climate lawyer and amazing, and I got connected with other claimants as well, and that we basically like had discussions around these issues and we had got in touch with Leigh Day, who are our lawyers, and who are an environmental justice kind of law firm, and they do human rights cases as well. And the lawyers and they put together an incredible case like with us, with us and everything. It feels really weird! It still feels weird to talk about. This is real? But yeah, it was many, many months in, in kind of in happening. But it's it's really great because the three of us, I think represent a lot of different people who care about these issues because I'm like a young person but also someone who's part of a diaspora community. I'm Jamaican, well was born in Jamaica, I'm also half British and I have grown up in the UK. I have family in Jamaica who are much more vulnerable to the climate crisis than I am here in the UK. And I'm very, very aware of that. Jamaica is also a previously colonised country that was colonised by the British, harmed by the British in that way, and then now are going to have the impact of the current crisis, which is being caused much more than Britain than it is by Jamaica. And I’m also someone who's based in Scotland and is part of the Scottish climate movement. So I, I really care about North Sea oil and gas from that perspective. And then Jeremy, who's one of the other claimants, he is an ex oil and gas worker and he used to actually work in North Sea oil and gas.

Gemma Styles: Oh wow.

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, which is, he has a really interesting, like lived experience of having worked in that industry and seeing how it treats workers, but also him realising the impact of the climate crisis and the reality that a lot of workers don't have the same amount of agency. I mean, I can't speak for all workers, but I think, I want to make it clear that with our case, we have no qualms with any workers at all. We are on the side of the workers as well.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Mikaela Loach: It's the, the big high up people that the issues happen with. And then Karen, she is an activist with the SNP and a lot of activism around like tax things, which are things that I don't understand as much [both laughing] I get the climate stuff. But she really, she- and that's what all of her work is around, is around like getting justice around public money and things like that. So all of us have very different life perspectives, I think, that we bring to this case. And being connected with them has been really interesting as well, just to work with people who have very different life experiences from you. And I think it's been, it's been like really exciting but yeah, a strange, strange… I don't think I ever thought I'd be taking the government to court. But here we are. [laughs]

Gemma Styles: No, I mean, I just find it fascinating because I think it's one of those things that it's, it's such like personal action from people. And I know it comes about through working with groups and things, but it obviously takes so much work and there's so much that goes on behind the scenes, and then you might see the occasional news story, but I think like, actually hearing from the individual people behind these kind of movements. I yeah, I just find fascinating. 

Mikaela Loach: It's been very different as well because this was the, I mean, I've put myself at risk in different ways, nothing compared to a lot of people do for climate. But like I've put myself, like under risk of arrest. And as a Black woman, I found that quite a scary experience. And now that there's a huge amount of risk that's involved in, in court cases [laughs] huge amounts of financial risk. But I think that for me, this has shown the desperation that I think a lot of us feel around this, is that we feel like we're, we're shouting and screaming to be listened to on an issue that feels so basic? Like all we want is all of us to be able to live safely and happily and not have this huge looming threat of the climate crisis looming over us. And we want to make a better world for all of us. And yet it's exhausting I think that we have to scream and shout [laughs] and put things at risk in order to do this. But I have a huge amount of respect for all the people that have been doing much, much more work than I have for ages. And I get inspired so much by, especially Indigenous activists who, and they see this, this this this work isn't a choice. It's they have to do this work. And so many Indigenous activists have literally lost their lives doing this work. And so I think any risk that I take is, it's almost nothing in comparison to what they are doing already and have done for so long. 

Gemma Styles: I mean, it's very noble work. I have a lot of a lot of admiration because it's brave. It's really brave. And I think the great thing to see that we have also seen recently is that it works as well. Like when you're when you really managed to push it through. There have been- I'm not going to be able to remember any of the individual points now- but what was, there was a day fairly recently where it was like three big cases or-

Mikaela Loach: Yes!

Gemma Styles: -there were three big wins on the same day. And it was similar in different countries of, you know, individual people going after, legally, these kind of climate protections. And when it works, it works and it's amazing! And it must give you so much drive!

Mikaela Loach: Oh for sure. I think- so that week was amazing. It was like known as Big Oil’s bad week [both laugh] because they had such a terrible, terrible week of, like, having justice being served I think in many ways, and accountability actually happening that people thought would never happen. And all of us in the Paid to Pollute team were very gassed that day, I think- “gassed” lol that's a funny choice of words, [Gemma laughing] given oil and gas. But no, because it was Shell, got taken to court by thousands of activists, took them to court around their emissions. It was the first time where basically, a fossil fuel company are being told that they are accountable for the emissions from burning fossil fuels as well as producing them. And they were told they have to reduce that significantly, like I think was by two thirds they have to reduce that, which is huge, like that's never happened before. And that was a huge win. And then there was another case that was actually in Australia where a group of young people and a nun sued the government around the, a new coal plant that was meant to be being built and basically was the first time that the Australian government, the Australian courts, like, and government, admitted that they have a responsibility over young people around the climate. Which is huge because when we talk about climate like, Australia and fossil fuels, it's like a whole different game. So that was a huge, huge thing. And it was really amazing to see that. And then there was like shareholder coups in the Exxon boardrooms and Chevron boardrooms. It was a great week for us, terrible week for oil and gas but I absolutely want them to have terrible weeks every week. [Gemma laughs] So it was great and it was really exciting because these are cases and Tessa was talking about this as well, because she has a huge amount of experience as a climate litigation lawyer. And these are cases that previously probably wouldn't have won. And they are being won now. And so many of them are being brought to court and many of them are winning. And that gives me a lot of hope because like all- organising works, it shows that organising works. These things are winning. It shows that the pressure that's being put on works, that things can change. Even today actually, as we’re recording this, the Keystone XL pipeline has just been- it's not, it's not being built anymore. They’ve stopped production and that's huge! And that was people organising around that for so long.

Gemma Styles: Oh wow!

Mikaela Loach: And so I think organising does work. It might feel, it might feel like we are so small. I think in the face of all these different things around us and these big governments, these big institutions, these companies that have millions and billions, and they use all their money to manipulate the public and to lobby for things. But the reality is, is that we do have so much power when we work together. And that's why I think I, I really try to say to people that we should be in movements and not just try and do everything on our own, because like, I know this sounds cliche but, a problem shared is a problem halved, but also a problem shared is much easier to solve when we do it together. And you're much less likely to burn out and you'll probably feel much better about the world in general as well when you know that you you have some power in changing it. And it just takes us actually recognising we have that power and taking into our hands and doing it. 

Gemma Styles: Definitely. I think that is a good example that you're setting at the moment as well where, you know, kind of what you say about you can't do everything by yourself and you will burn out if you do too much, because you have obviously been enormously busy with medical school and now all of this that's been going on behind the scenes and you're taking a year off uni, is that right? 

Mikaela Loach: Yes. And I'm so glad. I don't think…

Gemma Styles: Because I don't know how you've been doing it all! 

Mikaela Loach: Neither do I! By the grace of God, that is literally like I don't, I don't think it could be… It's not. People ask me all the time how how do you do it all and I'm just like — a lot of crying and breakdowns. So I don't recommend it. I'm going to be honest, like my mental health has struggled a lot this year, I think, because I've taken on too much. And that's why when I do talk about that I do a lot of things, I never want to recommend anyone does the same amount because it's not healthy. And that's why I very much had to say to myself a couple months ago, actually, I think I was just feeling really overwhelmed, like I already have anxiety and I was just feeling really overwhelmed by a lot of things. I think it was a day where I was sitting down, it was before we publicly announced the court case but I was having to like, read and sign off all of these big documents. And then also was revising for my exams and also was doing other work. And I just felt so overwhelmed and I just realised that there's no rush with a lot of these things.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Mikaela Loach: And what's important is that I'm also here and I'm also healthy. And in order for me to do that, maybe I need to slow down a bit. And so I contacted the medical school and ask for a sabbatical. And thankfully, they replied like, I think they knew how burnt out I was. And they were like, yes, please take a break, [both laughing] please. Like and I think and I've been like, I can do all these things! That they were like how about maybe you just don't do anything..? Maybe you should just relax. And and then I told them that I was taking the government to court they're like, I guess you're not going to be relaxing, but at least a little bit. A little bit. So I think that so often I think in this culture of, especially like in we live in this society of capitalism, which is all about production and productivity and get it done and and all this grind culture and everything that I think we can internalise that so much. I think I didn't realise how much I had internalised my worth being based on my productivity or how much I can do. And also glamorising like being burnt out in stress and having done all this stuff.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Mikaela Loach: And I think that it can get really unhealthy and so I've learnt a lot from @thenapministry on Instagram, they talk a lot about rest as being resistance, but also like how we are doing so many things when we're resting and those things are also important. And, yeah, that we should just take a nap and be happy. And I'm trying to do that, I'm going to try and try nap loads and-

Gemma Styles: Nap after this! 

Mikaela Loach: Yeah. Yeah, exactly. No, but I’ve just been I just feel lighter, I think knowing that I can rest? Because medical school is tough and so is all these other things. But I just realised there's no rush, I will be a doctor one day. Just might take me a little bit longer. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah. I mean I think that's such a great example to set as well, because when we're talking about these things and, yes, we want everyone to take action and yes, there are things we can be doing and, yes, be involved in movements, but equally, when you do look at people on social media who are... You know, we're not, we're not all activists, so I wouldn't consider myself an activist like the amount of work that goes into that, you… it's a full time job, almost. Like this is the thing, like you can't do everything at the same time. And I think that is a really good thing to be reminded of when you're feeling really overwhelmed that you're not doing enough because you have to really judge sometimes like before you really burn yourself out. Like you say, rest can be productive and, yeah. 

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, for sure. And I think one thing I would like to say on the activism being a full time job, I think it shouldn't be and I think it should- I think that and I think that I realised how much me doing so much was also like my ego of me thinking I had to do all these things and no one else was like, no one else could do these things. And actually, I found that letting go of that and instead being like, OK, like I could do all these things. Or I could, like, ask friends or people I know, like, do you have like five minutes here? Do you have ten minutes here? Like, could you help here, could you do this and then spread these things out? But also I think the reason why a lot of people end up doing so much and burning out is because in a similar way to what I said before about a lot of people feeling like they can't do everything, they don't do anything at all.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Mikaela Loach: If we had more people doing like ten minutes a week of stuff, there'd be less people doing everything.

Gemma Styles: Yes.

Mikaela Loach: And so I think we need to dismantle this idea of like what an activist is and what you have to do to be an activist or anything like that. And I think that to me, like that's why sometimes I even have issues with, like, the word activist because I feel like it puts this, all of these like attributes on someone or this, almost like puts people on a pedestal, which is which it shouldn't do at all.

Gemma Styles: Definitely.

Mikaela Loach: Because we can all just be active citizens like, all that requires us to care about an issue and do something about it. And I wouldn't want anyone to think like, oh, I only have this amount of time or like I am not completely perfect and therefore I can't do anything. Like whatever you can do is valuable and important and don't feel like because you can't do everything, you shouldn't do anything at all. Yeah. I think that we just need to dismantle, like the idea of activism having to be like this whole encompassing, destroying thing, when it can actually be like joyful and amazing and something that we can all like, weave into different parts. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. 

Mikaela Loach: And you don’t have to call yourself an activist to do activism as well, like call yourself whatever you want. Like, a bean. That’s what I like to call myself. 

Gemma Styles: Perfect, that works for everyone! [both laugh] I guess then on that point, because I don't think you would then scale it up and say, OK, well, everybody should be suing governments, etc. like it doesn't make sense for that to do anyway. But how can we help to support campaigners and people who are already doing these things and taking this action against the big, you know, governments, companies? How do we support campaigns that are already doing that work and sort of amplify their voices? 

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, I think that there's, I very much think there's not one type of activism or there's not one like hierarchy. There's not one type of action that is most important and one that's like less important. And also all of us… What's so beautiful about being people and humans is that we all have different skills and we all have different things that we care about and things that we're good at and want to do. And so there are so many ways you can get involved within that. Specifically about the Paid to Pollute case, if people want to support. I definitely have issues around petitions… but we do have a petition. My issues around petitions is I feel sometimes people will sign a petition, be like I'm done, and then it'll be like, OK, I've signed a petition. Therefore I've smashed it. And there is an extent to which petitions can have impacts and not have impacts. [laughs] But we do have a petition that would be helpful for you to sign if you have like five minutes. But the biggest thing that I would say to people to do is, is talk about these things as well. Like with people, let people know. I think most people don't know that the government is giving huge amounts of tax breaks and subsidies to the oil and gas industry. I also think that a lot of people don't understand like fossil fuels and the impact they have and people don't understand that plastics are made from fossil fuels. And if we're going to talk about plastics let’s talk about fossil fuels, and that if the fossil fuels have, are harming Indigenous communities all around the world now and have done in the past, it's a it's a racial justice issue. It's a human rights issue as well. And I think that, I do think in many ways, like understanding these things is really powerful and it will impact how people act and how people change their actions. And so talk about these these things, educate yourself on these things. Maybe just I would say if if anyone can join a local group…? Do it, please!

Gemma Styles: Oh, yeah!

Mikaela Loach: Because- and even if, it doesn’t matter what it is, it could be maybe you’re like really into, I dunno, food. And gardening or something. You could join like a community garden and be involved there in like food justice and stuff like there. Or if you have a few hours a week and you could volunteer at a food bank or- I like, I think all of, to me all of these things encompass under climate justice in different ways, but yeah, being involved like by educating yourself in these things, if you'd like to support the Paid to Pollute campaign, then you can go to paidtopollute.org.uk — that's where our petition is, and you can also donate to legal costs if you would like to, but there's no pressure to at all. And there’s also information that you can empower yourself with there, joining a local group, getting educated on these different things, but also like... I think just being an active part of our communities as well? And I think a big part of that I see is is, yeah, being involved, whether it's like contacting your local council or contacting the government or like contacting your local MP, even just to let them know you care about these things, it does have an impact and even if it’s just spreading awareness about these things I think all of these things do have impacts in different ways. And the more people that we have moving from that point of caring to acting, whatever acting looks like, that's how we create more change. So, yeah, sorry that was a bit of a waffly ramble! What’s going on with my brain state? [laughs]

Q&A

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Gemma Styles: Every week my guest and I will be answering your questions and the first one comes in from Vicky, who says,

What is the biggest challenge of overcoming the fear of not being heard or being ignored when it comes to climate action or activism in general? 

Mikaela Loach: Mmm. That is a really good question. I think… I would say, like be mindful of your energy and where you're using it. So, for example, I know that there are certain people that I can talk to about these issues over and over and over and over and over. And I've done it enough that they're not going to listen. And so I'm not going to invest my energy in that space because I realise that I'm not the best person to communicate that to them. And instead I'll invest in spaces where I can see some change happening. And I think if you're, if someone's feeling like quite defeatist, they feel quite alone in this, definitely like join a group in your local area or a community online. We, like on Yikes Podcast Patreon they started a Discord and it's been really lovely to see all of them, like just chatting about these things, a lot of people talking about how they feel really lonely, I think, in caring about climate so much, and that just even having these pals like online who also care, has really helped make them feel less lonely and give them more resilience to go out into the rest of the world. And I found that so much myself. I think that, there’s a quote by Arundhati Roy that I do quote all the time. So if anyone's ever heard me speak sorry you’ve probably heard this about ten times. But she says that “Another world is not only possible, she is on her way. On a quiet day, I can hear her breathing.” And I always come back to that because it reminds me that I need to listen to where I can hear that breath. Like where can I hear the breath of the new world? Where can I feel that breath? Because I think that that breath is what sustains us and keeps us going and reminds us that there is hope and there is a new world on her way. And for me, that breath I feel the most in, in movements. And when I'm with other people who care about these issues. And so because we, I think because we become that breath there, because I think hope is action and and this new world that is on its way, it's not just coming out of nowhere. It's coming from all of us. And so I think if you're feeling defeatist is really important to surround yourself with people who also can like, affirm you. I think that we get a lot of flak for like echo chambers and things. But in some way, I think sometimes being- having at least some space where people also care about these things and also can support you is a way to renew yourself and to have resilience. Yes, we should also go into spaces where people don't get these, like don't care and and those spaces where these things need to be talked about. But you can't only exist in that space. Otherwise, I think you just crumble because you wouldn't have anyone else there like holding you up. And I think we all need to hold each other up. So that's kind of why I would say for that. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. I love that quote as well. I don't actually think I'd heard that one. That is a lovely quote. 

Mikaela Loach: She is such a beautiful writer. Oh, my gosh. She wrote, if anyone's interested as well, she wrote an amazing essay called ‘The Pandemic is a Portal’ which came out around last summer I think, which was just oh just so moving and beautiful it was like, how we can step into a new world without the baggage of the old world if we just choose to. And how kind of this pandemic has shown the capabilities of governments to create change if they really want to, and therefore that can empower us today that we can create this new world. Sorry I'm just such a big fan of Arundhati Roy.

Gemma Styles: No I mean, go for it! I mean, I love that too it sounds great. [both laugh] Okay, next question is from Naomi. And they say,

What are the most prevalent ways climate justice is intertwined with systemic racism and what can we do about it?

So I feel like you have touched on that. 

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, this is, this is a great question. So if people don't understand what climate justice is… so climate justice is basically a principle which sees that the climate crisis is a justice issue in how it impacts people. So kind of how I said before, the climate crisis is a great multiplier. It multiplies a lot of inequality issues. And therefore, in our solutions that we create, we must centre justice and centre understanding of things like racism and and misogyny and all these different kind of, and capitalism, and all these systems of oppression, we need to have an understanding of them in how we create our solutions. So I would say that the way that climate justice intersects with like racism and anti-racism especially, is in the creation of the climate crisis. So if we look at what the climate crisis is and how it was started… so it was started because of extracting fossil fuels from the ground, from the detachment that we have with nature. But also most of this extraction happens in countries which are majority, like, or in areas that are like, inhabited by people of colour. And that land is exploited and it's extracted and people are murdered. And today people are still killed. Hundreds of Indigenous activists are killed every single year to extract fossil fuels and their land is taken from them. And this idea of superiority that that anyone can come into someone else's home and land and harm the people and harm the land is this superiority complex, which I think comes from colonialism, which is a product of white supremacy. And so what we see today is neo-colonialism, so Neo-Colonialism is just ‘new colonialism’ through extraction of fossil fuels in these areas. So I think that climate justice isn't just connected to racism and racial injustice — racial injustice is at the centre and the source of the creation of the climate crisis, and therefore it must- an understanding of racial justice must inform how we do our activism otherwise we’ll just create room for oppression to exist. So I think if you go back to the creation of that, that's where you kind of get that most. And if people want to learn more about that, @climateincolour, which is an amazing platform, has a climate colonialism course which you can access online and is so great and I've done it, and it’s interactive, and it will teach you about kind of the roots of colonialism and climate and it’s really really great. 

Gemma Styles: Lovely. Thank you very much. Last question is from Julie, who says,

A lot of my family members tend to say, ‘oh, stop bothering us with your shit on climate change and pollution. You're using a smartphone. Do you know how much this pollutes? You're not helping either.’ What would you tell them to make them understand that we care about the climate crisis, even if we're not perfect? 

Mikaela Loach: That is something, so this is something that I also got a lot when we announced that the court case, so many, like random people with no picture on Twitter, quote tweeting, being like, I bet she drives a car or I bet she like does whatever, like just trying to undermine you. For me, I feel like this is such like a, a scraping at crumbs argument, like you're really trying to get, you’re really try to find a reason why this is this is bad, but it is one that we get a lot and it's important to address. So I think that if you say to people about the fact that one hundred companies are responsible for seventy one percent of all greenhouse gas emissions, if you say that twenty companies are responsible for a third since the pre-industrial era, you can show that your impact as an individual is so much smaller than the impacts of all of these institutions and companies. And also the reality is, is that we live in systems that have been created to mean that we we need some of these things to survive and we don't have as much agency and control over being able to live without them. So, for example, I justify to myself having a smartphone, which I'm sure has, was was made with minerals that have definitely harmed people around the world, with using that in order to try and make sure that doesn't happen again, if that makes sense? Or to try and change the systems. And so I think that we have to realise that there's only an extent to which we can… we have to balance, like the impacts that these things that we have are having with the fact that we also need to be involved and active in incurring change. So, for example, if you didn't have a smartphone and you didn't know and you didn't have anything and you like kind of- I don’t know if anyone’s watched The Good Place, but on The Good Place, there's basically this character who-

Gemma Styles: I have!

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, Doug? He's, he's the character who’s like, he's as good as possible. He like he lives in the middle of nowhere. He tries to have no impact at all. Like and he still, because of all of these systems that we live in and because of all of the harm these systems cause, he still is causing harm in many ways? Like, this is probably quite a complicated way to get it. But I thought they described this really well because it's a systems issue. It's not just about the individual. And I think that Doug, for example, as a character, if maybe he had got a smartphone and communicated about these issues that he cares about, he might have reached more people and created more change than he's making by just focussing solely on himself. And so I think it's not just about us, it's about a bigger picture and a bigger perspective. And also, if people are saying these things and you can respond, respond and they don't change their mind, they're not gonna change their mind. And it's fine. You can move onto someone else that- I know, there are also people that I know who I will not bother to have these same kind of roundabout questions and answers things with. But that's usually what I try and put in perspective of the bigger picture of things. But there are people who just won't listen sometimes. And that's fine. 

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Gemma Styles: If you want to know about chances to send in questions for upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter @goodinfluencegs and email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.

RECOMMENDATIONS

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Gemma Styles: So you've given us some wonderful recommendations already in this episode. But before you go, I ask every guest for recommendations if people want to learn a bit more about what we've been talking about in the episode. Could you please recommend us something to read, something to listen to, something to watch? 

Mikaela Loach: Yes. OK, so, ooh gosh, something to read? I would really recommend reading What White People Can Do Next by Emma Dabiri because it is a really great book, I think that connects how like capitalism and climate, even though it kind of touches on climate but it's definitely like in there in there, and racism intersects. I think the title is quite misleading, and I’ve spoken to Emma about this because I interviewed her around the book, but she wanted it to be quite like- to draw you in and to make you think, oh, what, what white people do next? But me reading it, as someone who is a Black woman, I gained so much from it. And it’s only like 120 pages I think, so it’s really short but packs a huge punch and it will show you why movements are so important and hopefully inspire you to get involved. But also just like shake up your world a little bit in the best way. OK, something to listen to, The Drill podcast is so good, so it's a true crime podcast about the fossil fuel industry, which is so bizarre but great.

Gemma Styles: Ah…

Mikaela Loach: So it uses like a true crime format to talk about the kind of, the things the fossil fuel industry have done and especially around greenwashing and especially around climate denial? And I learnt so much from listening to this. And they also talk a lot about climate litigation cases. So kind of legal cases like my case, but ones around the world. But the format of it is a true crime thing is really interesting. And it's only like 20 minutes long each, but I get really addicted to it. I love it so much. It's so, so good.

Gemma Styles: That sounds really good!

Mikaela Loach: Yeah, it's so I'm, I'm obsessed. It came up on the like, you know the Spotify thing they did recently where they were like, ‘it's so you to…’ and it was like “it’s so you to just listen to drilled all the time.”

Gemma Styles: Yeah. Love that.

Mikaela Loach: Perfect. That's me! And then something to watch?

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Mikaela Loach: Yeah. So I was on a panel, this is probably a bit sneaky for me to- also! Sorry, I’m gonna go back quickly, something to listen to — I have a podcast! It’s called The Yikes Podcast. I always forget to plug it. And then, my co-host gives me a nudge [laughs] to be like, come on. But the Yikes Podcast is a podcast all about the things that make us yikes, the things that can be really overwhelming. We talk a lot about climate and racial injustice and anti-capitalism and just all of these different things in climate justice and what that actually means. And we try and do it in a way that's accessible. So we try and define key terms and to try and make sure that we make it as easy to access as we can because we don't want anyone to feel like, kind of what we talked about today that you can't get involved in climate because you don't know enough or you wanna be an activist, you don’t know enough. We try and make that space where you can come to wherever you are. And then something to watch, I was on a panel with Shado Mag, which Shado Mag is an amazing independent magazine that does a lot about activism and racial injustice and climate and things. And they had a panel called What is Environmental Racism? And it was really, really great, it’s actually on my IGTV, on my Instagram, which is @mikaelaloach and the other panellists were amazing. And it was one of the best conversations I've just ever had with a group of amazing Black women. And it was just so great. And if anyone wants like a, an introductory into environmental racism and environmental justice and climate justice, that is a great thing to watch. 

OUTRO

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Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening and thank you, Mikaela, for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, I would love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're listening on. And if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating and a review as well. Your reviews make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week!