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Gemma Styles [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest will help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about skin, why recommendations are No. One size fits all, who we should be getting our information from on some insider knowledge that could help you navigate skincare marketing. So joining me this week is Caroline Hirons. Caroline is a legend in the beauty industry, a globally qualified, advanced last edition. She's trained in over 100 different brands and has also written a book titled Skincare The Ultimate No Nonsense Guide, giving clear science backed information to help us all understand our own varied needs. With all this training and knowledge, Caroline is not afraid to point out misleading or fear mongering news stories or marketing, letting us know what's skin science and what skin nonsense.

Caroline Hirons [00:00:55] Don't believe the hype. Listen to your skin. If your skin is red raw just because you're using a product that someone else said was brilliant, then stop using it. You know, you don't have to spend a fortune to have that skin and you don't have to use a lot of products, have good skin.

Gemma Styles [00:01:11] So, I mean, as we started off and we're kind of talking a little bit before we even started recording about. Skink is something that I get asked about a lot, and I never really feel like I should be a person who is answering those kind of questions, but it's like talking about skin and whether it's things like acne or one thing I do end up talking about a lot is SPF, because I am aware your speciality person all the time. But I am not somebody who is qualified to be talking about skin care. So I would just love to pick your brain about some do's and don'ts and things that we might be doing right or wrong or where we should actually be getting our information from.

Caroline Hirons [00:02:03] Well, thank you for at least saying I'm not qualified to talk about skin care because everyone else on the Internet thinks they are. Let's face it. Let's face it. It's a you know, everybody let's just open it and let's all talk about it, which has always been strange to me because you don't see everyone claiming to be a fully qualified makeup artist. You know, most people will admit that they can do their own makeup. They're quite good at doing the friend's makeup, perhaps, but they would be completely lost on a film set or completely lost doing editorial and completely lost doing a different skin tone. So makeup still gets a different level of respect than skin gets just odd.

Gemma Styles [00:02:42] Well, yeah, I think it's one of those where I don't know, I feel like I would I would probably happily say, like, OK, so my skin is this type or activate like this. I've tried this product and I like it. Like, that would be kind of fine. But in terms of then like it's always like, oh, drop the skincare routine and I'm kind of like one you don't really know anything about my skin and like. We might have completely different skin types and therefore shouldn't be using the same products. Is that kind of. Something that you come across a lot like to people expect that it's a very one size fits all when it probably isn't.

Caroline Hirons [00:03:21] Yeah, for sure. And it's also, you know, brands have to take responsibility for that, too, because selling selling something and saying it's suitable for all. If it isn't, some things are. But if it isn't, then that can be problematic. I mean, a classic case is the ordinary glycolic acid, which was viral on Tick-Tock for all the wrong reasons, all of the wrong reasons. So it's just one of those things where you have to like you say, it's easy for someone to say skincare routine. But like someone said that to me, I'd be like, well, OK, you're 20 years old. Do you want to use anti ageing products for a 51 year old grandmother? So it's it is very, very personal. And so I think the fact that you sort of at least say that to people, you know, by all means, having your own experience of things and anecdotal evidence of things is really valid because there will be people in your situation, whatever that situation is, whoever is resisting. But the danger is when people say this is the best thing I've used and you can absolutely use it if you have this type of skin and that person is purely talking on their own experience and not doesn't have any sort of training to back it up of scientific evidence to back it up or, you know, that kind of. And I don't think a lot of the time it's done with the intention of causing harm. Certainly not. But I do think care isn't afforded the same respect as other aspects for sure.

Gemma Styles [00:04:46] Yeah, I agree. And I think it's like someone who struggled with their skin a lot. I do think that people treat skin and I mean, I'm talking about like mostly acne in my experience. But I mean, I've had all sorts of other things going wrong with my skin. But people do treat skin care as maybe quite like a sort of silly thing or like a frivolous thing when actually it isn't always and it is kind of like it can be part of like I don't know whether it's part of the way that people, you know, have itself to self care routine things always brought in or like, you know, sometimes it's a medical thing or sometimes, you know, you're just you're not happy with your skin. It makes you feel like shit. So you care a lot about it. And like, I think that's fine to care a lot about skin colour.

Caroline Hirons [00:05:31] You should care about your skin care. You care about other organs in your body. Why wouldn't you care about skin? You know, I think it's part of the it's part of the the whole misogyny thing of skin care is frivolous. It's something that girls do that kind of bullshit that just drives me crazy. One, as if men don't care about their skin and to as if caring about your skin is something frivolous or something to sort of be laughed at. And it's not you know, it does severely impact people's mental health if they're not happy with their skin. Yeah, that's just basic fact. You know, it's not being it's not sort of hyperbole or trying to sort of exaggerate the situation. If you don't have good skin, if you look in the mirror all the time and you know that you're presenting your face to the world if you're not happy with what's happening on that face. It causes upset. For sure.

Gemma Styles [00:06:20] Yeah, absolutely. It's also like I think this is something we should talk about, so, I mean, I don't often you went often really see it on me, I guess. And right now I'm not in treatment for it. So you don't see. But I suffer really badly with cystic acne, and it's painful. It's so painful. This is I also haven't talked about this, I don't think. But I ended up having to go in for like a bunch of hospital tests and scans last year in the middle of a bloody pandemic because the like cystic acne on my jaw had got so bad that it started like messing with my lymph nodes. So I had all these lumps over my neck and they were like, no, we need to, like, give you an MRI and we need to see all these things and

Caroline Hirons [00:07:01] then you start freaking out.

Gemma Styles [00:07:02] It was just it's just really stressful like it. Yeah, it does. Like, it affects other things, too. And it sounds awful. Yeah. It's just painful. Was it wasn't the most fun.

Caroline Hirons [00:07:10] No, sister, that knee is really, really painful. A lot of skin condition of eczema. Psoriasis hurts your skin. When your skin is inflamed in any way, it lets you know, you know, it lets you know we have nerve endings. It lets you know that it's not happy. And so being dismissed is just unacceptable.

Gemma Styles [00:07:28] Yeah, I think so. Like, it's one of those things. And especially because, you know, it can be if you're talking about acne, for example, can be like related to hormones. I feel like we keep coming back to it. It can be a kind of misogynistic thing of like people just don't really take it seriously. They don't take hormonal condition seriously. They don't really take skin condition seriously because it's like, oh, well, it's not making that big a difference to them.

Caroline Hirons [00:07:50] To them, it's not making that big a difference to them. Exactly. It's mostly in that case, it's mostly men. So for me, at the other end of the scale in the HLT arena, it's exactly the same problem. You know, being menopausal, perimenopausal, menopausal affects your skin. But it's frequently dismissed as you've just got a few spots, it'll be fine, it's just that kind of the dismissal is what I can't bear. And I've always said to parents of young people with with spots before they've even diagnosed it is acne. Please take your child seriously. If a child tells you they're not happy with their skin, they're not being vain. It is self care and the mental health is at stake. And if the first experience they have of coming to you when they need something for you about their health and wellbeing is is to be denied. That leaves a lasting impression that you then carry into the doctor's office and you then allow yourself to be denied. And that extends into other areas of your health care. So it's absolutely vital, No. One, that parents and I do think for the most part they do. I'm always hearing from parents wanting help with their teenager's skin and it's getting younger and younger ages. I've noticed. So, you know, it's vital that you take your child seriously. It's vital that you take your friend seriously. You know, it's not if someone says, oh, my God, my face is really bothering me. They're not looking for a compliment. You know, most people don't say that in the hope that you'll go help your skin. Lovely. Especially if you're lying to them like we're not stupid. If I'm having a really bad flare up, I'm like, God, my skin is atrocious. And I don't mean it's atrocious all the time. I mean, at the moment, my skin is atrocious and I'm just verbalising it. You know, I'm not fishing for compliments. I'm just saying, oh, God must drive me crazy and I'm doing this to fix it and done it. So when people do that, I just think dismissing it is is no different to saying, you know, I've twisted my ankle. It's what you saw. Oh, you'll be fine. Don't be daft. You can walk on it. You just want to say that, you know, you just wouldn't say that

Gemma Styles [00:09:43] I know you. It's also, I think is the thing of like when you're struggling really badly with something and then someone who's, like, trying to empathise with you is kind of. Oh, I know. I totally understand. Like, I've got this one spot here, so please don't. And it's like you say, it's like comparing saying, oh, I've got this broken leg, it's really terrible. And someone going, oh, I know exactly what you mean. I've got a hangnail. It's a nightmare. I was just

Caroline Hirons [00:10:06] using Chip to nail this so painful. But we do tend to do it. We do tend to be yeah. We tend to be dismissive of hormones and especially hormones that affect women. So we are dismissive when they've got their periods, which is a very real thing. We're dismissive when they are at the other end of it. Like I said, with menopausal, we're dismissive of it when they're pregnant, you know, but we're not dismissive of it. If someone has a thyroid problem or that's a hormone, they're immediately taken care of because of serious health concern. It's a serious health concern. If you have hormonal issues, get it taken care of. Yeah, stand up for yourself.

Gemma Styles [00:10:43] So if you are currently. Unhappy with your skin, let's say, which could be and I'm not also meaning to say that, you know, anyone who has spots is necessarily unhappy with us again, because I am here for fully embracing the acne, positivity, skin positivity. All of these moments, I think not only doing wonderful things, but if you are having issues with your skin. That you would like to change, where do you start? Essentially in trying to sort of get a grip on sorting things out?

Caroline Hirons [00:11:15] Well, firstly, there's absolutely no shame in saying I do. I wish I did not have any, you know, as much as you can say. Yes, I think the the sort of the skin positivity movement is similar to the body positive movement in that for me as an older woman, I know absolutely as a scientific medical fact, I cannot afford to carry extra weight around my middle because of my genetics. My grandmother had her first heart attack at fifty two. I'm fifty two this month. So for me, you know, and what's good is when you're at the other end of the scale, menopause doctors, they have absolutely no qualms in saying you need to lose that weight and they don't do it in any shape anyway. It's all based on your health. Right. And. And it's all related because I basically ate crisps for four years because I was perimenopausal and no one told me what that was, what I was just a big carb fest. So there is no shame in saying I'm not ashamed of my skin, but I wish my skin looked better when I look in the mirror because it would make me feel better. I don't think there is a person who has a face full of acne. And I've met thousands of them who. Wishes that they could keep their acne forever. Obviously, there is a difference between embracing what you're having to deal with and being in denial and saying there's nothing I can do about it because there is something you can do about it generally. So when I say all of this, none of this is to put any blame or shame on anyone ever, because that just leads to more mental health issues. It's it's purely from the point of view of exhausting every avenue without with me. It's always without people trying to spend too much money because it always comes with a link at the end of if you buy this full set, we can clear your acne in two weeks. Yeah, that is always a lie, dear listener. That is always a lie. If you have severe cystic acne, the only thing that will clear something and start to create that quickly is where Accutane. And that is not for everyone. And I say that purely as a that's a hardcore pharmaceutical drug that you can only get under the strictest of instructions from a qualified, fully board certified dermatologist. It is not to be trifled with, but it works. So you may be under the care of especially, she says. Right. Caroline Jema, you've tried this. We're going to try this. How do you feel in this whole discussion? But that doesn't come with a big price tag. That just comes with making sure you're under medical care. Now, not everyone can get that medical care. We are drastically underfunded and massively understaffed with dermatologists in the UK. Last count of something like to two hundred or two hundred and fifty dermatologist short of what we need to meet everyone's needs. So the wait lists are astronomical. So obviously your first port of call for most people is to go to your GP. The problem is most GPS immediately want to put you on antibiotics,

Gemma Styles [00:14:17] yapped on years of those muscle yet

Caroline Hirons [00:14:19] and they're not good for you. It's not the best course of action. And anyone who works in skin on the daily, i.e. faceless institutions and to be fair, are quite a few dermatologists also go down the road of antibiotics. Yes, if you think there's an underlying infection, but mostly it's going to be hormonal, it's going to be systemic, it's not going to be an infection. So it's that kind of half the time in the UK especially, it depends on your luck of the draw, how sympathetic your GP is, how clued up your GP is, because if your GP training years ago, they may think that Accutane causes depression and will lead you to suicidal thoughts, which is just no longer the case. Obviously, in some people they have to be watched differently, but the Accutane of twenty twenty one is very different to when it was a few years ago. And again, I'm only saying this to kind of ease people's minds. I'm not trying to push anyone onto anything ever. It's more to sort of ease the mind in the way that I used the mind of people who say, oh my God, I've been using a retinoic cream and I've just found out I'm pregnant. What harm have I done to my baby? And I'm like, nothing. Relax, please. They're cautionary. The cautionary warnings. Please relax. You're going to be fine. The stress of you worrying, we'll be doing more harm to your system so you can go. If you if it is a problem as acne, you can by all means go to your GP. If you've exhausted every avenue, there is various things and it depends who you talk to. And I'm always very careful about what I say because I don't want to be seen as endorsing one lifestyle because it is definitely not a one shoe fits all or one rule for all. But there are certain people in this industry whose opinion I trust and certain people who have treated my skin on my children's skin, for example, who are big adverts, advocates of cutting out dairy. And that has proved helpful. I again, I'm erring on the side of caution because I know that there will be nutritionists and dieticians screaming. It's not related to dairy. Now, I'm not here to talk about the science. It's just that if you deal in putting your hands on people every single day and it's not particularly a hormonal thing, surely it's worth trying. It's just I'm just saying it might be worth trying before. And I'm saying this purely again, as things that you can try and do for yourself before you have to go and spend a fortune, because no one wants to do that. Right. And the odds are it's not going to work if you spend a fortune and you're going to have to shell out more cash. And I just don't want people to be ripped off or lied to. That's it. To be honest, my girlfriend Teresa told me has a great clinic and she helped me out with my faces in this last year because Covid had Covid last year and it sparked Bakhmina skin and we didn't realise at the time that's what it was. So we were trying everything we went through. They gave her the usual antibiotics. I was so against it. She's not going to take the man's word over the dermatologist. Absolutely. Fair enough. Yeah, but I didn't do anything, didn't do anything, didn't shift it. And Theresa said, I don't want you to put oil on your face. And when you stop eating dairy, I don't come see me. I'm going to do some fractions on your forehead, which is a sort of a laser driven. And the reason I went to Teresa is because she has machinery that I just don't have. Mm. And it's and it's clear to skin so. Again, I'm hesitant to even say that because that's just what worked for her, you know, and it sounds like I'm just going round the houses, but it's it's not a one size fits all. But you can at least do things to try and help yourself and arm yourself with information. When you do go shopping, for example, you know, it's probably best to stay away from thick oil based creamy cleansers if you have acne. However, if you have eczema, you might find that quite comforting. You know, so everything is every skin condition has its own yin and yang, you know, it's not yeah, it's not easy. But I just don't want people to feel that once it's out of their reach financially. And because society for some people it will be because if the next step is a dumb and you've got an 18 month wait list, it can be excruciatingly painful, as you've said, and it can be soul destroying.

Gemma Styles [00:18:14] Yeah, it's also I feel like what you kind of look up a lot of information will try and look up advice on different things. I feel like I mean, obviously I know that the health care system in America is so wildly different anyway, but I feel like so many sort of articles or help things will kind of be like, yeah, what? You just need to go and see your dermatologist. Assuming that everybody has a dermatologist, which hair is just not the case? I don't know.

Caroline Hirons [00:18:38] Go and see your dermatologist again. And the other thing is go go and see a gynaecologist and everyone's like, well, yeah, exactly.

Gemma Styles [00:18:43] We don't have those.

Caroline Hirons [00:18:44] But our health system is set up so that we go to a GP and the GP refers you to the hospital. And it used to be the hospital system used to be functioned much higher. And again, I feel like I'm always having to caveat things by saying you won't find a bigger supporter of the NHS. But the NHS has been purposely underfunded for years. It is not the fault of the people who work there. It's the fault of the people withholding the money, you know. So I'm I'm very pro NHS workers and frontline workers and ente management who withhold the funds. That's kind of where I sit. It's just like you say, it's a different system. And for someone to go and see a private dermatologist, you may not have two or three hundred quid for a consultation. You know, it's. Yeah, who knows what it could end up costing if you need to have. It depends on where you live, if you need to have a full sort of allergy testing, because if you've got really bad sort of chronic eczema, they will want to do testing on you. And that's a big, long process that involves your whole back and days and days of not washing and all this kind of thing worth it in the end. But it's hard to get that on the NHS and it takes a long, long, long time.

Gemma Styles [00:19:49] Yeah, so tricky, isn't it?

Caroline Hirons [00:19:50] But like I say, I have lots of Americans who are like, why don't you go and see your DERM? Like, we don't have that here, Brenda. We live in the UK. I've got to go see my GP.

Gemma Styles [00:20:02] Think we wish we wish. We mentioned before you were saying, you know, brands who might possibly say, oh, you know, this will work for everyone, this will work for you, this will work for you, even if it may be won't because they want to sell you a product. Yeah. And I know you have been. Very vocal, you know, within the industry about me,

Caroline Hirons [00:20:27] about how very day you can find out very to you,

Gemma Styles [00:20:35] but you will call people out. But the thing is, you're qualified and you will call people, whether it's. I mean, to be fair, I feel like it's usually just because they're saying stuff either to try and get us to buy things or to get us to not buy other people's things. Yeah, and it's stuff that, like just isn't always true. But I think that's very difficult to navigate when you don't know what you're looking for, when you're looking at someone and they're saying, well, we haven't got this and yet we haven't got this. And then you're thinking, well, is that is that really bad? Is that a really bad thing?

Caroline Hirons [00:21:07] Yeah, and I think that's very much done on purpose. They know that preying on your insecurities and that's how marketing works, right? They plan your insecurities. Oh, I'm too thin. I'm too fat on too old. I'm too young. I'm too pale. I'm too dark. They play on whatever insecurity is sort of prevalent in that demographic and that's what they market to. And that's the same whether it's skin care, food, clothing. I mean, you pick anything, marketing people know what they're doing. They're very, very good at their jobs. You know, they're very, very good at their job is to make you want to buy their things. And so. It's how ethical a brand wants to be ultimately is what it comes down to. And if you are a young person who thinks I want to help my skin and you're reading all this stuff about how, for example, clean is better, green is better, parabens the devil, you know, everything should be natural. Chemicals are bad. You're going to it plays on your well, I need to treat myself well. So obviously I should only use things that are good for me. And if chemicals are bad for me, then I shouldn't be using. And you've kind of wiped out most of the skin care industry. Number one, you've also worked up nearly all the food groups. But let's not go down to the specifics. It can be really confusing. And I think a lot of friends do it to confuse you. And even the brands who claim to be about the science will also try to blind you a science to do it, to confuse you. And that's why I think it's just really important to have voices that you trust saying you don't need this, but you could absolutely use this. You might love this product. But actually, if you've got a combination skin, don't touch this with the bargepole. That's kind of where my I suppose my the blog became a helpful resource to people because everything for me goes back to the blog. Everything started with the blog I had. I would meet with agencies over the years just to sort of like say if we want to meet them. They say things like now we're going to reposition you because you're not a blog, it's a website. And I'm like, well, it's a blog. So I don't know why I'm calling it like, I don't have the shame. Yeah, I don't have any shame with having a blog in twenty, twenty one. But it's it my concern was always the end user, the customer. So I've never been concerned about upsetting because you know, I've never been concerned about particular upsetting brands as you might know, and because it's just to sort of say I don't want to go after people hard if the advice is dangerous. You know, I went after Gwynneth really hard, but that advice was monstrous. So if you're a young person and you think I just don't even know where to start, that's kind of where you start. So, for example, on the blog, the main things I know, this has been there for years. The cheat sheets are there for you to just have at it that you have to think it's called something like what to do if you don't know where to start. I mean, it's literally trying to sort out what your skin might be like because most people come to skin care. If there is, you don't kind of know. My skin looks amazing. I'm going to go skin care, shopping. You look at your skin and you go, yeah, I have a spot or I feel a bit dry or my face is a bit sore. A lot of young women actually end up looking at skin care because their makeup doesn't sit right on the skin. And that's their intro to Skin Care. It comes backwards. They buy foundation, they put the foundation on. The foundation doesn't work, but it looks great on everyone else. And then they think, well, why isn't this working on my skin? And then they go online and then they find that it could be that they're dehydrated and then they end up looking at skin care and then, yeah, that it kind of late. It leads from there. So for me, it's always been the importance of giving sort of just calm scientific information and pushing back against the you know, I spend a lot of time on social media just saying, no, you don't need that because people just don't need this right now. And a lot of times I'll say, yes, this is a great product, but I'm just not going to lie to someone. Yeah. And it just annoys me when brands lie to people. And that's why I kind of get ranty.

Gemma Styles [00:25:06] And I mean and this is why I wanted to have you on, because it is kind of just cutting through all of the the like Brandee nonsense that we don't really need. And I think I struggle because I am kind of constantly looking to like try and make more kind of like sustainable choices in products I'm using. But I do find that you get a lot of, like you say, the whole clean and green thing. Right. So when you're trying to go more sustainable with your packaging, I find that quite commonly it's a lot of those brands that you then. Or are also saying and this is, you know, however many percent natural and this is clean and this is something else, and the

Caroline Hirons [00:25:46] irony being that most brands that claim to be natural are not sustainable. Yeah, because you're pillaging the Earth for your ingredients, but that they've managed to separate that out. So you don't think about that. All you think about is, oh, I'm using plants on my face, therefore I'm doing good. Well, where did the plant come from? It came from the ground. Yeah. So when they talk about langmaid or manmade chemicals and it's always a negative, the irony is in a lot of cases that's actually much more sustainable than using Tea Tree or especially things like Boccaccio, which is like the new buzzword. But it's not yet fully sustainable, so we're pillaging the earth, but there was a time where everyone thought that palm oil was the next saving grace. Richard Branson turned all of his aeroplanes into aeroplanes that only use palm oil as fuel and it basically destroyed the rainforest. So I don't mean he did. I just mean the whole palm oil movement. And now, obviously, 20 odd years later, you can buy sustainable palm oil. But it's clear it's never, always, always look at always. I always say that we are so when so many Americans. Right. God bless them. And that's your American. I apologise. My mother's American on American soil. I am allowed to say the old negative thing. Don't hate me. But Americans, as well as being completely optimistic, are also sometimes too trusting, borderline gullible, borderline, some some borderline gullible. When you come across the Atlantic, you hit the Brits. And we are sceptical. We are sceptical of newness, we're sceptical of the latest gadget, we're sceptical. We're not as all-embracing when you go into the Nordic countries, they're just full blown cynical, so green. But try to launch Green Beauty, try to launch in Sweden. And they were basically hounded out of the country a few years ago. Now, obviously, it will have its rebirth and it will have its new movement. But a really famous green brand and one of the big ones did a huge launch in Sweden to the press. And all of the top beauty journalists were in the front row and they said to the distributor afterwards, we're going to destroy you in the press because everything they said is utter bullshit. And the distributor just let the brand go and they had to leave the country. I mean, it was literally that bad. So, wow. I would say we're not as cynical. We're more sceptical. So because the whole green thing and the organic thing hasn't been challenged that much in the states, it is doing now, like with lockdown scientists and dermatologists spending more time online and on social media and on Instagram and on Tick-Tock. And so now it's been challenged, but it was left to rot for too long. And so now there's this whole green is better, organic is better. And actually, that's not always the case. People saying plastic is, you know, the devil. And the beauty industry has caused this whole problem with plastic. Well, actually, a lot of brands now you are one of the few industries that does use recycled plastic gamer's that all your gaming just don't come in recycled plastic. It's that kind of again, it's because it's a predominantly female industry, I think. But then, you know, I am old and cynical, but but then, you know, if you if we switch to glass, glass cost more to produce, it's heavier to ship. So it cost more. You have to use more, more and more diesel more. Everything cost more. It's also not popular with the consumer because if you drop a two hundred quid serum on your toe and it's in a glass jar, it's going to break. If you package that in plastic and it bounces, Bob's your uncle. It's just not as cut and dry, that's what I'm trying to say.

Gemma Styles [00:29:21] Yeah, it's such a balancing act, I feel like with everything is I mean, I feel like the conversation helpfully comes up more and more, but that's just like a lack of nuance and everything that we talk about now,

Caroline Hirons [00:29:30] which is thank you, God. Not saying that not only does the N word does not exist, especially online, it's either or, you know, and it's made worse by things like, you know, morning TV shows like GNB when they had Piers Morgan on and he was always like the yin to Susanna's yang or the other way round. And it was always either on anyone on that trying to just say, well, actually, I think you'll find that it's not always like this. It could be like this. They're not interested because they want the clip, but they just want a quick sound bite that they can then send to the Daily Mail. And there's your next drama and headline. And actually, skincare enhanced self care is nuanced. What isn't you honest, is that we absolutely should take care of our skin and we absolutely should take skin condition seriously.

Gemma Styles [00:30:14] Definitely. And yeah, I will say we've mentioned your blog, but if anyone is thinking, OK, you've talked too much about acne today and my thing is something else, definitely just go and read Caroline's book because I can't help talking about my own faith. But but there's so much more information on there.

Caroline Hirons [00:30:30] But again, that's just not true. I've mentioned yeah, I've mentioned menopause and I'll tell you about 20 times. But that's what I'm going through. That's what we do. We talk about what's happening with us because we want resolutions, you know, but obviously we cover XMA, rosacea, dehydration, dryness, everything you can think of, spots, milia, everything you can think of. You can get information to sort of help. What I wouldn't do. I think we are very much past the stage. Social media has been fantastic as well as as well as you know, there's this balance. It must be new as well as causing a lot of stupid viral talks that are funny, but actually horrific as people. But in the face, it also has made brands more answerable to the consumer. For sure, it's made science able to be sort of at your hands. If you look for it, the science is there. It's just if you know where to where to look, basically, I mean, the amount of times people have asked me if psoriasis is just because they haven't sort of exfoliated their body properly. And I'm just thinking, oh, my God, please get to a doctor. You need a diagnosis. This is and also don't talk to me because I know you need medical care and it's just that kind of. Yeah. Trying to make information more accessible to people in terms of, you know, when it came to writing the book, I had lots of offers, but a lot of people didn't have the same vision. They you know, they didn't want it in supermarkets. They just wanted it to be in Waterstones. And God knows I love Waterstones and independent booksellers, but actually a lot of people buy books in the supermarket, you know, and it was the kind of snobbery. It was a lot of the snobbery I just wasn't on board with. And I just thought, no, we this information needs to be accessible. This isn't this isn't a Chanel handbag we're talking about here. It's skincare. It needs to be accessible. So I just think giving people information and letting them on themselves so they know what they're doing, because the days of going into account are long gone, you know, in terms of going up to a beauty counter and saying, I'll buy everything from your range, what do I need for my skin? It just doesn't happen that much anymore. Obviously, there will be people listening who have their favourite brands. You know, they will go into a department store and they maybe shop at Kiehl's or they only get their make up for Mac. But, you know, even twenty years ago, people were going into department stores and buying everything from Clarens or everything from long term or everything from clinic. And it just it's just much more democratised now. You know, we're cross branded. You look at places like Space and Kay and Co Beauty and all that sort of stuff. It's just not how we shop to really it's not how this generation shops anymore. It's I'll take this from the ordinary. I'll have this from the list. I'll have this from Hyrum. I'll have this from Clarence because my mum used it. I always get I'm like, yeah, thanks. That's my generation. Yeah. So it's it's democratised. But with that becomes that bigger comes a lot of confusion, like you said.

Gemma Styles [00:33:23] Yeah, definitely. Um, I'm glad we came back around to SBF. Not that it's my favourite thing in the world or anything, but also I think it's an interesting point because it is something that I feel like you see quite often people sharing like. Big news, this is terrible. Oh, that's terrible. This is bad, you it's only this kind or this is bad for the or this is bad for this or bad for the other. But it's also it makes me think of, you know, we were talking before about how we don't you know, we don't have enough dermatologist's in this in this country, in the NHS for what we need. But I also read a thing the other day that was saying about basically 90 percent of the dermatology appointments that we have are used for skin cancer because people, you know, it's not always, you know, people's fall or anything, but it is also. We're not necessarily doing the things that we could do where we need to do in terms of, you know, we're still going in like tanning and baking out, not not using SPF. And then when you get people online sort of being like, no, you shouldn't use it because of this, or God forbid you should only use it on the top of your cheek bones or whatever is just nonsense. And that's the kind of stuff that I'm like, it's when it gets dangerous. Yeah. Where should we actually be going? Sorry, this was my question that I was coming to of you mentioned about where we should be getting our information.

Caroline Hirons [00:34:50] Yeah, I think for me I would talk to someone who is qualified. Mm hmm. So and I take myself out of the equation. So I follow a lot of I follow actually more institutions than I do terms because Dems tend to all preach from the same hymn book when it comes to general skin care. So people always say, you know, it's always a good question in terms of Americans seem to get it a bit more in terms of the difference between a fatalist and I'm talking about an institution versus not. If you're just going to Chambless first of all day and you're having a nice I called my fluffy fascial, then nice occasionally. If you don't have any concerns and you just want someone to flutter on your face, you know, nice little massage, nice bit of oil. Lovely. I feel lovely. I'm going to go for a swim and I'm going to have dinner and I'm going to bed in my robe. That kind of facial definitely has its place and we can all do them.

Gemma Styles [00:35:37] Oh my God. That sounds like a dream, doesn't it?

Caroline Hirons [00:35:40] But I'm talking about the kind of photo that involves machinery or lasers or acids and really strong active ingredients that change your skin, not just give it a sort of, you know, a couple of days of smooth and soft, but it changes your skin. That's the kind of face I'm talking about. And I tend to follow those people more than I do dones and. Brands because they've had their hands on more people in terms of if you go for an appointment, it's not long. If you go for private NHS, a private appointment, it's longer. And you so same thing as gynaecology when you go. When I went to my GP for again the day, but when I went, it's like a 10 minute slot. You have to give all these symptoms really quickly and then they give you a prescription and that's it. You're done. Not the case. It didn't work. I went private. I had an hour long appointment and they listened to every single thing I said. Now I am not. I'm lucky I could afford to go private and I wish it wasn't that way. I'm not endorsing it at all. It should be available to everyone, absolutely. But sometimes it's not. And so I tend to follow in terms of advice. I follow lots of institutions because they're absolutely more up to date with product knowledge. I know that a dermatologist knows, you know, there's over three thousand skin diseases. That's their job. They know the more I know the product, yeah, there has to be the balance in between. And so that, you know, I always say if you if you're looking for the balance, if there is something on your face that if it was on your bottom or your arm or your leg, you would go, what is this red lump? I'm going to go to a doctor. That's when you should go and see a doctor stroke. If you just look at your face and you think, you know, I could do with a little bit of a reboot here, this this looks a bit tired. This looks a bit droopy. This looks a bit dull. I've got a few spots. I don't know where they come from. I don't feel like it's particularly anything major. I feel perfectly healthy within myself. I'd like to talk to someone about the health of my skin or the longevity of good skin health. Then you can go and see a good obstetrician. That, to me, is their knowledge is invaluable because we do the training that we do thousands of hours worth of training of the different levels, but the people I follow were all top of their game use lasers. Laser for me is always key. If you can wield a laser, then I'm probably going to listen to you

Gemma Styles [00:37:59] if you know what you're doing with a laser.

Caroline Hirons [00:38:01] Yeah, that's not to say that there aren't brilliant dermatologists. I'm not being down on anyone. I'm just trying to show where people strengths are and where you're going to get a quicker answer. Because the other thing that's key, and this is to the credit, dermatologists and doctors will not give personalised advice online. It's literally against the ethics. But you can ask someone like me and I would say, well, it looks like this. I would say if you're in doubt, you need to go to a doctor. And I would recommend your doctor. And I always say to people, if you can afford private and you're really worried about it, I can give you a list of doctors that work privately. I don't know your NHS clinic where you live locally in Stafford, for example. So it's always swings and roundabouts. I just I find I'm more like a conduit for sending people either to a store with the right advice or sending people to other institutions who can do treatments. Because I do know sort of people around the UK and in the US and I know I know great terms and I have sent plenty of people to great derm. So again, I'm not down on any dentists, just that we don't have enough of them. And their knowledge is different to the knowledge from someone like me. If you don't have any major skin problems, you don't need a dermatologist. Yeah, why would you? It's like saying I'm going to go and see an osteopath about my knee, but there's nothing wrong with my knee.

Gemma Styles [00:39:17] Yeah, yeah, totally. Well, maybe I'll maybe I'll ask you for a ask you for a list of some good people to follow and we can walk in the show notes for anyone who wants to follow some more, get us tradition. But for sure.

Caroline Hirons [00:39:29] For sure. And it's also key to make sure you know that you especially if you're someone with a darker skin tone, if you've got black skin or Indian skin or Asian skin, South Asian skin, then you have slightly different skin concerns. You do. And so if the normal over the counter industry is built around white Caucasian skin, which it is unacceptable, it's good to have voices talking to you who look like you, you know, and it's exactly the same. There's nothing wrong with that. I when I when I'm going to see someone about my genitals or my face, I would like to talk to a woman. I'm sorry if that's sexist, but I would. I want a female gynaecologist and I like a female dermatologist or an aesthetic doctor who's going to do any kind of treatment or injectable. I would like a woman because I don't want to be the man, a man's vision of a woman. And I know that sounds really bad. That's just me. There are brilliant male doctors. Of course there are. But if you're a black woman or man. Surely, and my girlfriend has the black skin directory, and it's a brilliant resource, it was long overdue because there will come a point where I can tell you so much, but I don't I haven't lived that experience. I've done the training. But if you're sitting opposite someone who has the same skin tone as you, there's just a connexion there that you won't get when you're talking to a Caucasian person. So while we all have the training, the the empathy will be there. But the empathy backed up with the personal experience comes from someone who looks like you so you can see yourself reflected back. You know, I'm not going to go to an older white male doctor to ask him about my gender. It's just not going to happen.

Gemma Styles [00:41:11] And you know what? That is the beauty of personal choice and personal preference. Everyone can do, you know, what they're more comfortable with. Some people won't be bothered by MA. If you are, that's fine. It also means yeah, like you say, if you want a lot of these preferences come from again, it's like we say, people think these things are really frivolous and they're not. It comes from experiences of being discounted or various different experiences that might lead you to those preferences. It's the nuances, the nuance, Caroline. Exactly.

Caroline Hirons [00:41:41] It's the it's my personal thing. And I get it. And I know that there'll be people out there whose dads are really lovely and I'm sure they are wonderful. I would go about anything else, just not Muppet's. So idiotic. It's just one of my things, you know. But yes, I follow people that are qualified, basically. That's what I'm trying to say. Yes. There's great anecdotal evidence in terms of that. That in itself is a quandary because it's anecdotal. It doesn't really mean it's evidence. You know, there is great anecdotal experiences. So if you say, you know, if you look at it as to if you say this product was great for me because it did this to my skin, that's a perfectly valid opinion. And you're very clear about it. Your opinion. If I say this product and I'm talking about what it will do for you from a scientific angle, I will also bring into it my training. And so, you know, and there are people out there who are vastly more trying to me, vastly more watching me, I'm always pushing them, I'm always putting people towards and saying, go and see them for treatment. Brilliant. That's where I go. You know, we all have a certain set of skills like Mr. Nessen. So it is finding someone you trust. And a lot of it is word of mouth. You know, I get so many people taking their friends underneath my post because they're like, oh, this is the woman I was talking about. This is who I follow, you know, check her blog. She has loads of info. I'm sure you'll find something. And if you can't find it, she will tell you who to follow. I don't have the ego of. Oh, yeah, you have to follow me. I know everything. I'm way past that age group. I'm the first person to go, you know, I don't know. But I will find out and I'll be on a life and I'll make a note and then I'll go back into the comments and go. By the way, I found out about science and science and then I'll make a note of it. So it is very much about arming yourself with information as it is with all things health. And I think we all need to sort of recognise I mean, the industry does. But from a personal point of view, there is nothing frivolous circling back and there's nothing frivolous about taking care of yourself. You know, you have to take care of your skin and it's not frivolous and it's not vain. And even if it is a bit vain, so what? I mean, cats proven themselves, you know, I mean, it's just what we do. Egyptians bathed in milk. We're human beings. That's what we do every week.

Gemma Styles [00:43:49] My guest and I will be answering your questions on the first one comes in from Nova, who says, I have struggled with acne for a while now. And I've been seeing people talking about the wonders that snail slime can make to your skin. Is this really true or is it a new and exciting ingredient that will force people to buy these products this second? Yeah, I mean,

Caroline Hirons [00:44:11] I can't I can't deal with the snail slime thing. One, snails make slime when they're stressed. So it's it's just not my favourite thing. And while it might have nice benefits, I mean, do you want snails crawling all over your face? The facial pictures, you see where they put snails on your face, make me literally want to throw up so know there are far more sophisticated ingredients than snail slime. But I appreciate the question because, yes, it is very trendy and people will try and push it. And it's just it's just not for me. I mean, I'm sure there are other people in brands who love it and embrace it. That's fine. They can put their snails wherever they want. It's just not for me. And it's not going to cure your acne. No one dies

Gemma Styles [00:44:57] for the not not miracle product. This was I mean, I feel like yeah, it's one of those new things. And a few years ago, wasn't everyone putting venom in everything?

Caroline Hirons [00:45:05] Yeah, the venom snake.

Gemma Styles [00:45:07] None of those things that just comes and goes. Yeah, exactly. Okay, perfect. So next question is from Andy, who says, what is a marketing strategy that a lot of us consumers still don't know about?

Caroline Hirons [00:45:22] Such an amazing question, a marketing strategy. Waiting lists don't exist. Load of bullshit, really. Waiting lists, waiting lists always get me going because we will message other and go, oh, did you know this? Seventy five thousand people on this waiting list. And when you say someone, did you actually write your name physically on a list and I'm talking about skin care in-store. Online. So there are now a way I mean they've got a bit better. But if there is a story usually in the mail in the sidebar of shame that lists that lists, you know, this new product from and it's usually something like a Boutte's number seven associate to them, it's just well placed advertising. There are fifty thousand people waiting for this. Right. So all they've done is taken how many they've probably made, how many they're sending out to the stores, and that there's been a bit of interest in it because they've already done some place product placement in a paper to generate interest. The only time you get real waiting lists are ones where the industry says you're not going to get your hands on this because there's a massive waiting list, things like I mean, I can tell you a genuine one. So when the Beckham's had a tanning treatment in the hotel, they left the hotel carrying a see through it. Now, it would never happen now. Never happened now. But they carried they were given product like at home use. And they came out of the hotel and with pants, with a see carry a bag carrying a little brand known as Centropa. And that launched Centropa brand. Now, that caused a real genuine waiting list, massive orders, pre-orders. That was real. When you say, you know, just for starters as well, like it's usually happened because something viral. So Beckham's are very good at causing viral waiting lists in terms of this is the next big product from such and such. Oh, is it, though, because who's using it? If you see a famous person using something and the thing is now, because it's so much placed, product placement doesn't happen as often. So when it does genuinely happen, it's kind of nice for the industry to see that there's actually that much of a passion and an interest to things, you know. So if someone someone famous says this is the best product I've ever used, it will sell out and it will cause a waiting list. But waiting lists don't exist from the minute a product is developed. You know, you don't even know it's coming. Why would there be a waiting list? So I would say waiting lists would be number one. I'm sure there's loads more, but I love that question.

Gemma Styles [00:47:50] I thought that was a great question. That's a good one, too. Yeah, because I feel like you do always hear that it's not like something is even sold out. It's like when there's a brand new product, brand

Caroline Hirons [00:47:58] new everybody

Gemma Styles [00:47:59] hands on because it's been everywhere. But there's such a waiting list. Yeah. That's such a good point. I did not know. But if you

Caroline Hirons [00:48:03] but if you say well is it on pre-order. If it's not on pre-order then how can there be a waiting list. Like it's that kind of you know, it's just you if something's really well smoke and mirrors. Yeah. Like if something's really well known. If, if a brand is launched in the States and it has come to what what there is is a mailing list for sure. And all of that is designed so that you will sign up to a websites mailing list so that they have your data that they can then use for marketing purposes down the road. But there's a big difference between, oh, I'm interested in the next provided shoes. Do you want to join our mailing list? Yes, that's lovely. Thank you. That doesn't mean it's a waiting list.

Gemma Styles [00:48:44] That's true to word. Next question is from Ray, who asked, aside from beauty, do you have any other daily routines or self care habits that you found helpful this year?

Caroline Hirons [00:48:57] Yeah, I mean, my whole my whole day is usually a routine. I'm very routine driven. If I can't have my routine, it really unsettles me. So I have, like, you know, certain I have two cups of tea in the morning, you know, it's kind of it's just way like I sit down and my husband and I watch something together in the evening that's part of our routine. I have to make my bed every day. That's my routine. If I haven't made my bed, it means I'm ill and I'm still in it. Things like that, literally, but yeah, so making my bed every day, I treated lockdown a bit like I did in the early days of after you had a baby where everything's blurry. You kind of tired, but you've got energy, but you're awake. We don't know what's going on. And and one day we'll blend into the other if you do not differentiate and make sure you do the same thing. So I would get up, make the bed, have a shower, get dressed, depending on whether I was doing Zoom's, I might do use makeup, I might not make up quickly. Went out the window for me in lockdown. I was just like, oh my God, I can't be asked. So yeah, I just cannot be asked. And yeah, just making sure that I acted as if I was at the office, even if it wasn't like I have to have a really clean house before I can start work. So if it means I have to stay up late to make sure the house is ready for me in the morning, then that's what I do. But yeah, my routines, I'm all about routine, not in a superstitious way. Just know this is how I function because I've got 80 days. So if I don't have those routines, everything goes out the window.

Gemma Styles [00:50:23] Thank you for that one. Yeah, I think that's a yeah. What I, I, I find that quite difficult to do. I feel like I would be better with a more solid routine but equally. I'm a real bucker routine kind of person, those things that I do without thinking about it, like you say, like will sit in the evening and usually watch something on telly. I get up in the morning. Pretty much the first thing I do is put the kettle on. Yeah, but other than that, I do tend to float through my day a little bit sometimes and kind of do what I feel like doing at the point of doing it, which is, you know, I can't do that. Working from home.

Caroline Hirons [00:50:56] But see, to me that's the negative about working from home. I'm just like, get me in the office. I can't do it. I hate it. I like them to be two very different spaces.

Gemma Styles [00:51:05] Yeah. Give me my routine. But my next question is from Vicky, who asked, what is your opinion on pyramid schemes on all their products really that bad?

Caroline Hirons [00:51:17] The products aren't bad, but the ethos behind the business is so pyramid schemes. I assume that he means like MLM, which is multilevel marketing brands such as Arbon Mary Kay Tropica. Now Tropica will push back and say they're not. But the way they do the business model is I have had some contact with their owner over the last year though and they I am actually going to live there. I just haven't had the time. So I know it sounds weird but I've been in lockdown. But you know, it's kind of like I've got to get this make this happen. So it's not that the products are bad, it's that sometimes the messaging and how they are sold by the time it trickles down that chain. Number one, there are definite there is definite cases of people being not ripped off, but not getting back what they put in for sure. So I would always say with the side of caution. So, yeah, it's not that the product are bad. The parts of it's just that the business model is not ethical for me for a lot of those type of brands. So I never say I've never trashed the product. It's always been. That that person's been pressured into buying it or, you know, it's that kind of thing and some of the messaging is nonsense. I mean, one of the things I took Tropica to task for was that they say that the only reason their products aren't sold in normal retailers is because they're really fresh. They've only just been made and they don't use preservatives. And if you didn't use preservatives, it would be green. Dave and their owner basically contacted me and said, no, you're absolutely right. We of course, we have preservatives. I will fix this messaging service, things like that. When brands are receptive, it's great. But as a rule, it's the business model that's the problem, not the product.

Gemma Styles [00:52:55] OK, good to know. And then last question, which I feel like we've kind of talked about, but we've not really gone so much into routines. I guess I'm going to ask you last question from Ley, who said, how do you find a good routine? I've tried so many different products over the last five years, but feel like none of them really help me. Do I have to talk to a professional?

Caroline Hirons [00:53:17] I know what I would do is line up all your products, separate them out by category, whether it's Cleanseas toners, moisturiser, serum's ice creams, SPF, whatever it is, push them all back to the wall and pull forward three things. Pull forward a cleanser, a moisturiser and an SPF. Try those three things together for a few weeks and see how your skin is. If your skin looks like it needs a bit more help, delve into your stash of serum's. Now, if you don't have a serum, that's when you can do a little bit of information. But it sounds like she spent money. So you don't want anyone to waste money. But it's almost like doing a sort of restarting your engines, push everything back, bring forward the three things that, you know, your skin likes that you don't have an issue with, and just that your skin barrier do its own thing and see how your skin is after a couple of weeks of just on minimal use of product, whether that's a moisturiser, SPF would be my bare minimum. If you are slightly older, I would check in an ice cream. Some people don't like it. Don't use an ice cream. The recommended. I just say they must have great eyes or can afford a load of filler. But as long as you're washing your face and applying an SPF, those are that's a good place to start. Then I would incorporate, if you want to. And we don't know anything about his skin or his skin. So I didn't catch your name, but we don't know anything about this skin or any condition they may have. So if you know, for example, that you're getting the old spot, maybe you can buy some of those, maybe have like a spot treatment or does it stick because they're really good? You like the spots that sort of little stickers, the patches that you stick on a spot. They do work. That is. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:54:53] They also stop you picking them or

Caroline Hirons [00:54:56] picking them, which is genius because I still get the really big cystic lump in my neck because of the other and hormonal. You're still hormonal and they do, they stop touching them and everything. They really work. So things like that. If you are a bit dull or, you know, you work in the city, I would maybe consider incorporating a vitamin C, but you don't have to. Maybe your skin's a bit dull. You can you could look at if you've got a nice dynomite serum, if you're a bit if you want to look at sort of recharging the skin, you could look at using a vitamin in the evening. And if you've got the problem is when you have all of those things and use them all at the same time and you don't really know how best to use them. So my rule of thumb is stop everything, try. It's almost like an elimination diet for the skin. Just wash your face. Yeah. Keep it comfortable with a moisturiser and definitely an SPF and then slowly introduce the things that you've bought based on the knowledge you have of what that product is supposed to do. And if you're unsure, Google it and say, well, actually if I'm using this for redness, but it's actually for a drier skin, maybe I'll just put that to one side. Don't throw anything away. Most things have like a two year shelf life. From the minute you open them, more natural things are is less, but you'll get eighteen months out of most products. So don't throw anything away. But definitely scale it back and then take baby steps forward, one product at a time to see if any of the stuff that you've bought actually does help your skin and just have an honest conversation about what it is you think your product can do, because as much as the best products in the world can help sort of skin tone and to some degree skin elasticity, if you want to change the structure of your skin, that involves intervention and that means a needle. And that's not for everyone. And I say that you can what I mean by we say knaidel, I shouldn't say so. Throw away what I mean is, yes, a professional or a laser or some radiofrequency or some dumb or rolling like something that involves a bit more to make. It's like taking a face to the gym. You know, you're limited in what you can do at home with that. So in answer to the original question, it depends on their age, the skin type, the skin tone. But if you're not sure, instead of going out and trying to, you know, first thing I do when I do an event is I say, show me what you've got, because most people will turn up to a play with a bag for the product. And I look at their face, I look at the products and I start taking things and I can save this building to save this for the winter. Give this to your mother. Why did you buy this? And they're like, oh, God, you told me to buy the online and I did it anyway. And it's that kind of thing. So scale it back. Do like a no buy pledge, unless someone says this is a perfect product, if you have this problem with your skin and I've seen it work on this and you trust the person, then that's different. But if you've got a load, a product, yes, you can by all means, you can do a consultation. But I would just be wary of going for a consultation somewhere where they sell product. Because that you may end up buying more, so let's work out what you need first is always my first before you spend any more money. Let's work out what you need and we'll go from there.

Gemma Styles [00:57:49] If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter at Good Influence G.S. and email me Good Influence Pod at Gmail dot com. Before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest, and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please recommend something to read, something to listen to, something to watch?

Caroline Hirons [00:58:14] Oh God. OK, so read. I would say my book, which is not plugging it, but it does kind of wrap it up and it's always on offer. You can always get it cheaper than the Covid price.

Gemma Styles [00:58:25] You know, you don't often hear the publishers.

Caroline Hirons [00:58:31] I used to be. I'm like, yes, ten quick get it now. So read my book. But also, if you can't afford it, read the blog. By all means, read the blog, there's like sixteen hundred blog posts, most of them about skin care. That's the one about Duran Duran but most of the Breskin listen to. Now, it depends how deep your love for skincare is. There's a new podcast by Sam Farmer, so I can give you a link for that one. But that's kind of very industry. If you just want more sort of beauty and general skincare, fun, things like that. The podcast by and just in New York called Mascara is a great podcast. Full coverage. Beauty is a great podcast. You've got to listen to so many podcasts now, literally minds blank, but I can certainly give you the list of those. And then watching is different because there's not that much to watch in terms of. I mean, there's hardly I like Doltish Sherene Idris on terms of Instagram. You could look at her things. She's a dermatologist from New York. A few of the dermatologists at the moment are doing like embarrassing take talks. And I'm just like, please don't please don't stand there. You're fifty five years old and you're dancing. Please stop it. There's a reason Hyrum had like twenty seven million followers on Tick Tock kids his age group. I know your audience. No judgement, but did you know so. Yeah, it's much more about yeah. Listen to sort of general industry podcast is quite good. Allured to a good portion of the American magazine, although they do a podcast on the weakness of breaking down key key ingredients like they've done what is nice dynomite. What is vitamin A? That's quite a good one. A lot of fun. Good. Yeah, watching it. Ton of depends. Watching you can you can fall down a rabbit hole in places like Instagram because it's very if you search a hashtag you get so much crap on there, you know. So I tend to sort of look at as petition's dermatologist's some and there's not really that many skincare I follow on YouTube. I don't I'm not a big fan of the reaction video world, so I kind of save my YouTube for watching things like Casey Neistat and funny clips from The Late Show or something like that. I'm kind of yeah, I'm kind of a fuddy duddy stuck in my ways. I don't really want to I don't care what someone for me, the reaction video thing is very it's just judgmentalism when they're trying not to be. And so it's just not fun. I know people love them. It's fine. I like reaction videos to music. I love watching reaction videos to music. Then my favourite thing, when people hear a brilliant song for the first time I go, it sets me up for the day. It's amazing. Oh, so nice. Oh, it's brilliant. I'll send you some good ones. But watching someone's first doing a skincare routine and having someone tear it to shreds to me is not entertainment.

Gemma Styles [01:01:19] But thank you for listening and thank you, Caroline, for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're currently listening on. And if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating under review as well. Your reviews make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week.