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Gemma Styles [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest will help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about expectations, how social media might exacerbate longstanding societal norms, how letting go of one pressure can empower you in other areas, and what to do when it's tension we put on ourselves that's holding us back. Just a note to say that we do mention some body image and eating issues in this episode, so take care if that might be difficult for you. So joining me this week are Alex Light and Em Clarkson. There's so much I could say about this pair individually. Alex just published her first book, You Are Not A Before Picture, which was straight into the Sunday Times bestseller charts. Em is a ball of online empowerment from spreading celebration of women, not competition with her feel good Fridays or taking the intimidation out of sports with the Have A goes together, they host their new podcast Should I Delete That? Aiming to explore the nuance that's often left out of social media conversations and have a laugh along the way.

Alex Light [00:01:14] The irony is, is that we are taught that we have to be likeable, that it's so important for women to be likeable, and yet it's so much harder for us to be likeable than it is for men.

Gemma Styles [00:01:28] So let's get right into it. So we're going to talk about expectations today. So I guess a good place to start is I feel like you both separately and together on your platforms, talk a lot about different forms of expectations and the ways that we kind of. Conform to those or try not to conform to them. Could you maybe both tell us a bit about how you came to be so sort of outspoken in those faces, like where did this. Bucking of expectations come from. Do you want to start?

Emily Clarkson [00:02:02] So I think it's important to know a bit of information about me, and that's how I grew up as a chronic people pleaser. Like I obsession with making the people around me happy was just so massive. And it's something that a lot of people struggle with. I know and I don't think I realised. I don't think I've even heard the term people pleasing until like two days ago. And once I started to learn it, I actually started getting coaching to help me because I just was giving all of my power to other people all the time because I cared so much about the opinions of others. I started to learn what I had been doing, the patterns that I'd been sitting in, and I realised that really this society creates an environment that gets women, that puts women in this position where we do have to prioritise how other people feel. We do have to make sure that everybody around us is happy and that we are palatable, that we're likeable and like. So I think I simultaneously kind of had this huge moment of like self-discovery where I was like, Oh my God, this is my whole identity is like trying to make people like me, but then also realising actually this was fully engineered by a society that wants to sell me things and wants to keep me small and wants to keep me chasing this sort of unobtainable way of life. And I've realised that the two things, it's been very empowering for me to share my journey with kind of online and people pleasing and kind of being okay with people not liking you necessarily or not agreeing with everything that you do. And I think like that is so jarring and it's in the society that we live in. Women's worth is so tied up to likeability and that's a lot linked in to like how we look and everything. But we, we have to be liked in every area. We have to be likes in order to be a good person. And actually men don't. And it's so annoying. Men can be bowlers and just businessmen and like, just, you know, they can just be like, oh, he's just he's he's a savage. He gets great deals, like he is a Rottweiler, whereas women are bitches and they're bossy. I was like, This is so unfair. So the two things have basically been like my own self-discovery, realising how exists in this like parallel way to the way that we exist as women in this world. And that sucks. So it's been great for me to just kind of like use myself to talk about it online and kind of really explore this stuff that was not articulate. But I think.

Gemma Styles [00:04:31] I think it was great. I mean, yeah, just kind of using yourself as a case study for why this is not good for us.

Emily Clarkson [00:04:37] Like, no.

Gemma Styles [00:04:38] Alex, how about you?

Alex Light [00:04:40] And what she said is going to be like and I also grew up a people pleaser but unlike I am still in the depths of that is what is great is that I have like recognised it now and I understand and I understand that I've always lived this way but I do still really struggle with that and struggle with wanting everyone to like me and wanting to do what's best for everyone else and like just feeling this great weight of expectation on my shoulders. But I am, yeah, I feel like more so than I am. I'm kind of trying to like do it publicly, I guess. Like publicly, yeah. Unsure as I'm doing it. But my gateway into this whole thing about this whole discussion around expectations and expectations on women was through diet, culture and learning about what diet culture is, which is essentially these massive expectations that women have to burden. Women especially have to burden like it's kind of there for men, but mostly women. And just being so horrified and frustrated by the fact that this these expectations exist, that they're so pervasive. And the ubiquity kind of say that word ubiquity and the ubiquity of them was just so horrifying to me that I really started to lean into this diet, culture space and trying to break down these breakdown, the concept of these expectations, like why? Why are we supposed to be thin? Like, why are we told that we have to shrink ourselves? Like, why are we told that if we're not thin, we're not attractive or worthy or whatever it is? So that was how yeah, that was how I came to start talking about stuff. And then I think through, I mean it's really, it's hard to like tap into one area of things that are linked to the patriarchy without sort of opening up a massive can of worms and realising that it is more even more pervasive than, you know, so pervasive like way more than you realise. And I think that's what we've been doing that with, with our podcast as well. This isn't just a shameless plug, but it sounds like it, but this is what we want.

Gemma Styles [00:06:55] To talk about.

Alex Light [00:06:56] This is what I can't say more. Time without thinking of the body type of clothing run now by M and I that's grammatically incorrect anyway and am and I have been tackling that stuff with the podcast and it's interesting to find how deep it runs, just how deep seated all this stuff is and how entrenched in these expectations that we are. Especially like I'm sad as women.

Gemma Styles [00:07:20] Why do you think right now, most or maybe not most, but why are these expectations coming from, do you think, these days? Because I feel like when we talk about you talk about expectations on women and it's very easy. To go immediately to cut to social media, basically. But also a lot of what were then talking about is kind of the deep rooted stuff that it like predated social media by quite a long way. How do you think those things are kind of fusing themselves together right now?

Emily Clarkson [00:07:50] I don't think it's necessarily just. I think that, you know, social media, in my mind, is creating a vast amount of new problems that's just exacerbating existing ones. And I think when it comes to expectations, you don't need to look that far. You can look at how society talks about mothers, you know, like you're a bad mother if you go back to work, but you're a bad person. If you don't, you know, your you can look at what a woman was wearing, should she have been assaulted and and her behaviour there is is called into question and judged. And I think society, although social media does exacerbate these things, I think societally the expectation on women to be perfect in every area and there isn't an area I think I don't think I can think of an area where this isn't a pressure. We have to look a certain way, behave a certain way, be perceived a certain way, make other people comfortable. And I think it's. Nowhere is it more obvious than than the way we talk about mothers as a society, because that is an area that I mean, it's a business. It's huge tech, not their business. These are lovely. It's a lot. It's terrifying. People are, you know, they're so judgemental. And I think that's just a really good example of something that women are doing exclusively and all the time, trying their best they're judged so massively for. So I just I think the societal expectation sort of seeps into everywhere. And, of course, social media, you know, yes, your parents particularly is called into things. And and you do have to be palatable. And you do have to help me to show that you're not me to run to you, whatever it is. But it's exactly the same as what people are experiencing in the workplace or at school or or whatever. It's sort of just. Yeah, same stuff on a screen, basically.

Alex Light [00:09:33] Yeah. And I think like traditional media as well as massively perpetuated these expectations. And I was just thinking as you're talking there, like the irony is, is that we are taught that we have to be likeable, but it's so important for women to be likeable, and yet it's so much harder for us to be likeable than it is for men. Men can get away with the bare minimum and people like aren't they a great what a great lad, you know.

Emily Clarkson [00:10:02] What a good dad.

Alex Light [00:10:03] What a great dads are, you know, you know, he's he cracked a joke, but isn't he funny? You know, whereas women really have to I we have to go the extra mile to be likeable in so, so many ways. And that's like the the horrible irony of it is that we're, like, taught that we have to achieve something, that it takes all of our energy to achieve. But then again, that's a nice tool of the patriarchy, because then it keeps us quieter and more obedient and more, you know, easily influenced. So it makes sense. But yeah, it's it's hard. There's a lot.

Gemma Styles [00:10:37] Definitely. I mean, you mentioned touched upon diet culture earlier, which is something that you both discuss a lot, do you think? That's targeting one of these areas. So, for example, going against diet culture and trying to get out of that grip of sort of expectation on yourself, do you think by doing that in one area, it's made you feel more empowered in other areas, such as the likeability? Is it kind of once you break away from one thing, is it easier to feel less like there are other pressures and expectations on you?

Alex Light [00:11:14] So I think I think humans in general, right. Are very they kind of go along with what they're told and what they know and they don't question or challenge much. And I actually think it's it's it's we're not necessarily born great critical thinkers and we don't engage critical thinking that well. And like I never did, I never questioned anything anything at all. But it was when I started to question diet culture. I was kind of forced to engage critical thinking that I was like, Oh my God, this applies to so many other areas of my life, too. And still now I'm like, How is it that someone can say, Oh, you're overweight or you need to lose weight? And that doesn't bother me genuinely. I mean, that genuinely doesn't bother me. But then someone can say, Oh, you're a bad writer or you're a bad person or whatever, and it can cut so deep, you know? And really the premise is kind of the same. So I think it's open. It hasn't necessarily solved loads of different like areas of my life, but it's definitely opened me up to Yeah. Being being more critical of what is expected of me in other areas.

Emily Clarkson [00:12:23] For me on that, my endeavours as a teenager and a young adult to look good and look good. I mean, be thin because that's what society taught us. Looking good meant were it was so huge and it was always because I wanted to be considered attractive and I didn't want to fail this like test as a woman. I didn't want I wanted to be what society wanted from me. And I wanted to achieve that, say that I would be attractive and I would be liked more. And it is literally as simple as that. I didn't want to be thin because I wanted to be healthy. I didn't want to be thin because I you to run ready, far or do anything cool. I just wanted to be thin because I wanted boys to fancy me because that's what I'd been taught as a priority. And as I started to unlearn that and genuinely my favourite thing and the only way I was able to do that was just like the best, the best word in a woman's arsenal is why? Why do I want to be? Because I want you to look attractive. Do it. Why do I want to look attractive? To look at most the men I was chasing as a teenager, I'm like, they wash their socks like once a week that absolutely fall like they only cared about their football. A boy dumped me over email and I'm not going to eat lunch because I want to impress him. Is a joke like when you push why it's boy because they want you smaller because they because they want you basically. They want your diet and they don't want you. Monday to Friday, if you're busy thinking about not eating and being pretty and being thin and you're not going to chat up in the world, you're not going to demand will pay. You're not going to do anything because you're busy, you are hungry, you're tired, you've got stuff to think about. You've got to choose what to wear. You've got to do all these silly little things and just, you know, it's it's and then you start, why? Why why would I want to sell these things? So they want to make money from it. Why do they want to make money from it? Because they kind of that they're going to get richer. And the more you ask why, the more you're like, Oh, my God, this is insane. I'm ruining my own life so that this life can get rich, basically. Like, how annoying. And so once I did it there and I just realised that that I didn't, my body didn't need to be like I didn't, it didn't need to be approved of. It was that's a ridiculous thing to expect everybody to like. And even then why do I want everybody to like it? It's actually all it's, you know, it's weird. So once I made that piece of my body, I was like, You know what? Not it. I'm bringing the brain in like this, you know? That was kind of fun and kind of like a great revelation. I'm going to do it for the whole family and just kind of applied the same why, why, why, why, why all the time. And my logic now is like, well, if men don't have to, I'm not doing it. And, you know, men don't need to start an email saying sorry, so why should I?

Gemma Styles [00:15:00] Yeah, it's such a good point. And I think I relate to what you were saying before, Alex, as well about the kind of now if people will say something to me negatively about my appearance on occasion. I mean, it's not nice, but it bothers me less because to me I can vote quite easily rationalise that and sort of think well. If you're saying something mean to me about the shape of my face, which was like nothing. There's nothing I could have done about that that really says more about you than it does about me. Whereas if people want to kind of critique you in other areas and I mean, this is this is a conversation we were having. So I recorded for Alex Nam's podcast yesterday and we were talking about being cool and how that's still kind of the thing, even when you let go of a lot of this other stuff. Yeah. It's not a thing. The thing that carries on and. Do you think when you get rid of a law and we're trying to go against the kind of patriarchal standards? Do you think the what's left then but we're then struggling with is trying to get women to like us. Now, we're not that bothered about men liking those anymore.

Emily Clarkson [00:16:11] I'm such an interesting girl.

Alex Light [00:16:13] That is such a good question.

Emily Clarkson [00:16:15] Because women are conditioned to judge each other. Right. I think when I said earlier about mothers being a hornet's nest like that, I've got a lot worse. These two wasps, two hornets. It's getting worse. I think that's actually an example of like a women only space, which should be incredibly supportive but can be very judgemental. And I think that's because women are against it. Have a look at Meghan Markle and Kate Middleton. Look at this. The way that little mix is spoken about, look at, I don't know, Taylor Swift verses. There's always somebody who wore it better. So as long as we've been alive, the media has always pitted women against each other. Camilla or Diana? It's always women versus women. And it's I think with that in mind, like, that's what's difficult because kind of learning not to care what men think is one thing. Because because because they're men. That sounds really bad. Because, you know, you learn that you can't just live your life searching for male approval if you want to live a fulfilled life, fulfilled, fulfilled life. But I think with the with women, it's, it's such a group activity that we all have to partake in, and that's unlearning the inherent bitchiness and competitiveness that stems from the fact that we have been conditioned to compare ourselves and to put other women down, like all the magazines we've been exposed to for so long, encourage you to judge other women. And I think that's such a hurtful I think that's why it can be so hurtful when somebody criticises something about you. You know what? Another woman criticises you because on the one hand, you feel like you want solidarity and girl power and unity and we're going to fix each other's crowns. But on the other hand, we exist in a world that has pitted against each other forever. And inherently we just want to judge and pick somebody because it makes us feel better about ourselves. So if I say something mean to you for a short little minute, then I might feel better about myself even more than I would. But that's with no Heat magazine doesn't talk about that.

Alex Light [00:18:16] It's a projection of all of our own pain. When we do that, it's a projection of our own pain because we are held to we are held to those standards, right? Mm hmm. And you know what? Actually, just before talking about women being pitted against each other, just before we came on here, I saw a meme, and it was, you know, Modern Family.

Emily Clarkson [00:18:35] Mm hmm.

Alex Light [00:18:36] So it was Julie Bowen who I don't know her name in the thing.

Emily Clarkson [00:18:39] She plays Claire.

Alex Light [00:18:40] Place. Who plays Claire? So the blonde mom and then Sofia Vergara, who plays Gloria, who's like the Spanish mom and like they they dress Gloria in like, amazing, like, tight dresses and, like, really fancy dresses. And she's always wearing heels and she's always super glam. And, like, there's always like that, you know, throughout the show, there's, like, a running joke that, like, oh, Claire. So jealous of of Gloria. And it was it was this mean was Julie looking at Sofia? And I sat underneath the face of jealousy. But I was like. And I'm like, There we go right here. If that's and that's that stuff that was that consuming all the time that's being thrown in our face. So it's just totally understandable then that we still have these bias biases against women, even though we're fighting against these standards.

Emily Clarkson [00:19:34] This is something that men say to me quite a lot. It's like, well, it's women that judge other women. If I ever talk about, you know, some of the things that like women and a lot of the time you'll find that the not all men brigade who want to wash their hands with any responsibility and blame, and they very often say, oh, well, you know, it's women that bring other women down is women that judge other women. It's women that say say a lot of the bitchy things. You know, women do tend to bitch more than men, but actually and they're right. But the reason we do it is because of the patriarchy is because because we've been conditioned to do that. So you're not totally blameless. But one of.

Alex Light [00:20:08] The ways that always annoys me when people say that because I'm like, give it why, think about why we weren't just born being like hate. Other women must bring other women down like there's something behind it. So like thing. But think about why. Yeah. And at the root of that is the patriarchy.

Emily Clarkson [00:20:26] Yeah. Because we want to be more attractive to men. Is the pick me girl thing. God, I could literally do this for days. So. And I want to say is like, you pick a stitch and you're like, oh God, the whole dress is falling apart.

Gemma Styles [00:20:37] The whole world is unravelling. Society is not what it was. I'm going to buck my own plan for the podcast upset because we're basically now answering one of the questions I was going to ask you later, so I'm just going to read it now anyway. And then, yeah, we'll come back to other questions. So. Was Althaea a question and for this episode answered my questions about trolling online, specifically the hate that women get. What are your thoughts on the saying Women support women? But a lot of hate and criticism. Women are coming from a fellow woman. So that's kind of what we've just been talking about. She said, I just noticed, based on what I've seen online, there was a certain group of women who have female empowerment, etc. in their bios, but are the first ones to leave a negative comment on another woman's post. I just want to know your thoughts on this confusing and kind of toxic idea. So that, I guess, is kind of there's a lot of unlearning that needs to be done. But this, I guess, is kind of when we're already in that headspace of, you know, women supporting women. How does it so often then become. Nasty again in the kind of life we don't agree with or if we feel that the women on. As as progressive as we all may be, I'm saying in Act four, for the sake of the tape. But you know what I mean. How how do we then manage to kind of go so far toward being kind to other women that we then just go back to shaming people for not being. I don't know. Do you know what I mean?

Emily Clarkson [00:22:08] Yeah. Oh, I don't know about you. Sorry. I'm just going to jump in. I used to be, like, the biggest dick. I can't tell you. Even even in my, like, the entry to my feminism, even at the at the time when I really thought I was kind of like, women support women. And I was really stridently feminist. And I wish I actually think I've always been, although I've been I anyway, I've been on a journey, but I think, you know, I don't think I've always been the kindest and I think I'm I don't I've never done it online. I've never said out loud particularly, but I've know I've had toxic thoughts and that's because I'm quite a judgemental person, I realise, and it's because of my own expectations, right. Like I always think my, my expectations of other people were way too high and I was setting my friends up, people I didn't know up for failure basically because I held everybody to my standards. And I think I hope I'm quite a good friend and I think things should be done a certain way. And I, I have this view of what I think and hope the world would look like. So I'd held everybody up to the expectations I have to myself because I'm not all that fair. This is how I want to be and everybody else needs to be here too, if that's how we're going to make change and stuff. And and it's really easy to feel quite righteous within that space. And you can be like, okay, this is what I, this is what I think. And I'm, I think, I really think I'm right and I really think my intentions are good. And I really and, you know, I wasn't doing this from a place of, like, strident, like a dictator in how to be a feminist. I just I just had this sort of view of what I thought was right. And it's very easy then to judge other people when when they fall short of your expectations of them. And that's something that's quite difficult because we hold ourselves, you know, what we hold? We, whether we like it or not, we put various people on pedestals and we have expectations of other women, of other people. And if they fall short of this expectation, then we do judge them instinctively. We judge them because, you know, like we were all talking about sort of the night that you word. And I think that's a really interesting thing because you are setting people up to fail by taking a test that they don't know they're taking. You know, I would do this to my friends all the time. I'd set this quiet expectation off in my head, like, they'll do this then if they don't do it, I'm not well, they're shit. And then I'm like, Well, that's not fair because I didn't know that I wanted them to do this. And they've just announced they know no because they were just doing whatever. And I think women quite often do that to other women with the best intentions. And it's really easy then to sort of feel this like righteous anger when actually you have to you have to lead with empathy, particularly when you consider how many people you're exposed to online. You're seeing different people at random points, different days, and you can't possibly expect every single person to please you all the time in the same way that you wouldn't expect somebody else at any given time. And we have to lead with more empathy and just think, you know, these people have different tools, different lives, different worlds, and I can't expect them to whatever. But I think that's how it happened. But that's certainly how it happened for me. When I found myself thinking negatively about other women, it was because of the expectations I put on them that were nothing to do with them. That was all me. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:25:09] It's interesting what you say, given even what we've just said earlier about, you know, I. I don't expect people to do things that I will like all the time. And it's like you said. So why would I expect everyone to like me all the time? But I feel like that's the sticking point that I find. You know, it's like you just don't want to upset anyone ever, which I think is, you know, a noble goal, if you like. But as you say, it just it doesn't make logical sense. I don't expect other people to walk around doing and expect them to behave in exactly the way that I would like them to all the time. But I still expect that of myself when everyone else is judging me. If you know what I mean.

Alex Light [00:25:48] Right. Yeah. Same. I is not conducive to, like, a happy life either, is it because you're spending so it's draining and exhausting because you're spending so much time and energy on. On. Trying to make this like fairly futile goal. But just on that point and I think this is, I think kind of touching on this as well as like the whole like women support other women without exception thing. And I think that can kind of lead a little bit into toxic positivity a little bit because we know we still need to hold ourselves and other women accountable and we can't, you know, call it calling out damage or toxicity should still be allowed. And that is not it doesn't mean that you're not supporting other women. I guess it's like for the overall cause of supporting women, even if it has even if one even if you have to call out one woman, am I making any sense? You know what I mean?

Gemma Styles [00:26:47] Yeah.

Alex Light [00:26:49] I feel like we do still have to hold other women accountable. I say this as someone who finds it very difficult to be held accountable because I'm sensitive as hell. So when someone tells me that like I've done something wrong or I need to learn more, I find it incredibly painful. But I think it's really important. And I think we we should be able to do it without being then labelled with, oh, well, you obviously don't like women, you're not supporting other women because and unlike and so everyone's at different points of their journey and not through fault of their own, just through coming to learn about all this stuff at different points and also looking at everything through their own lens, which has been crafted by, you know, a lifetime of different experiences. So but I do think I do think, like I said, empathy and compassion is absolutely key to this like entire conversation. And that's that is sad when someone is sort of preaching female empowerment and then proactively trying to to tear another woman down. That is sad. But again, it might be a projection of their own pain and they feel like they're being held to these standards. So why shouldn't other women or they're being, you know. Cold out or whatever said, why shouldn't they call out other women?

Gemma Styles [00:28:02] Yeah, I mean, that was going to be my next question, kind of how do we then balance taking kind of like valid, constructive criticism that is necessary? How do we balance that with trying to block out all kind of ignore people's unfair expectations on us?

Emily Clarkson [00:28:23] Someone told me once that you should never take criticism from somebody that you wouldn't go to for advice. And I think that's like pretty. Pretty crucial in the kind of like making peace with criticism. And I have always been told that I'm overly sensitive and I'm terrible at taking criticism and it's constructive and whatever. Personally, I don't. It's interesting what I'll say now, because there is definitely a line between holding people to account. But also sometimes I think the something that's been really valuable for me to learn is like, okay, not my circus, not my monkeys, which is an old proverb. And it's basically just like sometimes you have to let other people live because sometimes, you know, I was just saying that like we all have different worldviews, we all have different filters. We will perceive things very differently. So personally, you know, some people message me about people, message me on the regular, telling me that, you know, I'm just I'm just giving you some constructive criticism. I don't I. No, no, thank you. Thanks, but no thanks. And before I have taken every single bit of constructive criticism, then I say that inaccurate, because I think that's just a way that very often people say that it just doesn't validate. It's the same people who say that they're being devil's advocate. It's like, we don't need the devil doesn't need an advocate. He's the devil. So I think very often people will sort of label things, constructive criticism, when really they just want to be a bit of a dick. So I think there is a really interesting balance to learn within yourself about what you should be taking on board, because if you want to, you can find criticism in anything and you can look for random little meanings in everything that you hear. And you can you can take some feedback as criticism, you know, and and not everybody's going to label what they're giving you, you know. So say on Instagram, you'll probably get like, okay, this is constructive criticism, but in the work environment, you won't get that. Your boss will tell you something and it's completely up to you how you perceive that, because he might be saying that you did a great job, but it was a little bit late. And, you know, I'm going to be I he's going to fire me on this. I'm the boss or whatever it is. I actually completely missed the first bit where he was saying it was a good thing. So I think you have to be able to know that when somebody doesn't like one part, if you will criticise is one part of you. It's not a complete character assassination of your entire being. You're not a terrible.

Gemma Styles [00:30:44] That isn't the way it should be anyway.

Emily Clarkson [00:30:46] No, no, but totally when you're, you know, like up to your eyes and people pleasing, which was my whole life when somebody said one, you know, they would literally, oh, you having fun today? Oh, God, I'm going to shave you. This is okay. Say, I'm so ugly and like, you know, you take things so very often, things that are said critically aren't necessarily a criticism. And even if they are, it's okay to be criticised and you don't have to agree with what the person says to you. That's the other thing. When you're a people pleaser, you're a very malleable person. So when somebody says to you, Oh, you're a bit strong, you know that your instinct is to be quiet forever. And actually, that's that's their opinion of you. And just because somebody has an opinion of you doesn't make it. That doesn't make you who you are. And I think that's really interesting as well when we take criticism to really work out who's giving it to us and do we believe it to? Because sometimes, yeah, we do need to be held to account and sometimes someone's going to give us constructive criticism that we do need to hear. And you shouldn't be talking like this because we're excluding somebody from the conversation and not using inclusive language and great cool that out and in in my opinion often you know you can you can take that somebody quietly back and say, you know, this is what I think and this is, you know, just helpful, whatever. And if I agree with that, then that's great. And if I don't agree with that, that's okay too. It might make me a bit of a dick maybe if if they've said a good thing and I've chosen to disagree with them, but that's on me. And you do get to make that decision. When somebody brings you advice or criticism, you can choose if you want to take it, if you agree with it, if you if you would go to this person to ask some advice on this issue and that's empowering for me.

Gemma Styles [00:32:31] Yeah. I mean, I think that's a good point about yeah, you don't have to automatically accept things, but also it is kind of good practise either way to sort of sit with it for a second and think, okay, who are saying this? Why are they saying it? What are their points? Could I actually take that on board and, you know, slightly change my behaviour to help someone else for example, do I feel like that's something that I actually want to do and then you know, and then you do and it's great and sometimes no, it won't be. Alex, you look like you've got I'm going to jump in face.

Alex Light [00:33:02] No, I didn't. I was just I was thinking that I totally agree with you. It's good to explore it. And I was just thinking like, I wish that was my first reaction, but I'm working on it rather than go to like, I'm over, I'm done. I can't do any of this. Like I'm tapping out of life. Everyone can fuck off and leave me alone. But yeah, I think that's a really valuable point. And I guess like it's hard because this stuff is so nuanced and like what you were saying about like constructive criticism, I guess. When I was talking about it, I was thinking about bigger stuff, about, you know, if you're doing something that is harming a group of people. Yeah. Causing active harm. But yeah. The, the constructive criticism thing, I just I kind of can't. But I like people will come to me and say, oh, just so you know, I thought your last post was terrible. And I'm like, okay, oh, thanks. And then I like just a bit of constructive criticism. I'm like, Well, it's not really. And also, I didn't ask for that and also, please leave me alone. So, yeah, this, this stuff is all like very, very nuanced. But I think, I think that's the important part to recognise as well is, is new on. So it requires us to like think about it and engage and be be more deliberate with it and not react on our first instinct, which is what you were saying, like explore it and sit with it and decide what you want to do with it and where you want to take it.

Gemma Styles [00:34:27] Yeah, definitely. I think last thing that I'm going to tuck into this portion is on your podcast. So, so literally in the description you say you're talking about, you know, exploring nuance and conversations, which I think is great. That's, you know, what we're kind of doing today, I hope. But also say that you're trying to, like, sort of dispel some shame from people. What what how did you kind of identify that as something that is so necessary? And do you think it is the kind of shame that comes from what other people expect from us? Or is that something that we're putting on ourselves? Or like how how are you kind of. Getting rid of some of that shame by having these conversations.

Alex Light [00:35:11] You know, I feel I shot a yes. It was like I felt guilty since I came out the womb or something like that, which really, really made me laugh. I was like, I actually feel.

Gemma Styles [00:35:20] Like I stole this, actually.

Alex Light [00:35:21] It's good, isn't it? Which is also true. But I feel like I feel like that about shame as well. I feel like I felt ashamed of myself from data and about everything about I mean, particularly my body, because that's obviously like a huge part of my journey. I guess I have felt so much so, so, so much shame. And I've spent my life beating myself up for things that. I perceive to be bad about me and just, you know, feeling this incredible shame around stuff and it's only shadow. What I was actually I was really lucky to be able to access therapy for my eating disorder. And it was only when I started to speak to someone who was neutral and who I could really like let all my secrets out because it was confidential and just someone that I didn't really know. But I realised so much of what we think and believe is shared by other people and so much of this stuff is so shrouded in, in and shame because we feel like, God, I'm the only person that feels this way. I'm so bad. I'm feeling like they're so I'm so embarrassed. I feel this way. And actually so much of it is shared by other people, but we just don't know because we just don't talk about it. And so it and talking about my eating disorder for me, something that was like the biggest, the thing that was so more shameful to me than anything was one of the most powerful things that I've ever done, is talking about it and opening up that conversation, not just for me, but for so many other people who are like, Oh my God, I thought it was just me. I go, you know, I was so ashamed of myself because I thought, God, this is just like a vanity thing. Like, I just I want to look good because I want to be thin, which is obviously so not true. But there is so much power in in opening up about these things that we've felt shame about, unlike Brené Brown, who are obsessed with like shame can't exist in the light. And it's so true when you bring things into the light, shame can't exist. I mean, I can probably think of a few things that like, say a few seconds, unsubstantiated, kind of just.

Gemma Styles [00:37:25] The exceptions that prove the rule.

Speaker 4 [00:37:27] Yeah.

Alex Light [00:37:27] Sorry to be pedantic, but as a general promise like shame can't exist in the light. And so it's so cool to talk about these things. And especially for women, there are so many things that women specifically have felt so much shame about, even like, you know, I talk about like shaving your vulva, right? And it's like, no, people have never talked about this. And yet we've had the standard where we're supposed to be like hairless little tails and yet we're not taught. No one talks about how to shave or like what you should use or like what you should do. It's all just like hush hush. You've got you can't have any head on there, but we're not going to let you know how you know. So I think that is just one example of so, so, so many. So I think for us it was really we were like, we want to bring these topics into the light and just make women feel less alone. Because I can guarantee that like the vast majority of things that you feel shame about is probably, you know, people are saying like it's probably a fairly common thing and it's not just you, like you're not alone. And yeah, I think I think that's kind of where it came from.

Emily Clarkson [00:38:37] I also think like something else and I realised like, you know, we do, we are, we both work on Instagram and it's a really like interesting time with activism particularly because there's a lot of cries of like do better, do better, do the learning, you know, whatever. And, and that's really, really important. But and we, we hold each other to this very high standard of kind of we need to, you know, we need to know the right language. We need to know the right resources. We need to be sharing. We need to be doing this and and being the best, showing up in the best way that we can and being, you know, probably good people online. And that's great. And I know that a lot of young people feel the pressure to do that with certain things, whether it be. And so, I mean, you talk about a lot like with the environment or whatever, but there's so you've kind of got this like really weird time where we're all we all want to do the best that we can, but we don't really know how to. And there is a shame in saying that, like for me personally, learning is one of my favourite things to do. I don't know is literally my favourite sentence in the whole world because I think we are expected to have the answers, particularly when you have a platform and you expected to have done the work and whatever all the time in it. And it's really hard to know everything. And you know, actually, I think sometimes just being like how she didn't know is incredibly powerful because, you know, you've got two kids and one mouth. And so saying I don't know is really powerful because you can sit and you can learn and that's really valuable. And I think we wanted to give space for learning with the podcast as well because it's okay not to know everything. It's okay not to know why diet culture has you in this vice like grip. You know, a lot of people, for example, would follow like, oh, maybe, or me and or the podcast. And I'd be like, God, I feel really guilty because I'm dieting and I don't know why, because I love what you're saying, but I can't quite I can't quite get there myself. And it's like, Yeah, that's good to know that you don't know because it's within that space that you grow and you learn and you form new opinions. And I like, I mean, I always teases me because I love a cliché and I want to start a fresh business one day. But if you can't change your mind, you won't. If you if you won't change your mind, you won't change the world. And I think, like, that's what we wanted to do with the podcast. Thank you. To be a great magnet. I'll send you one. I think you're so welcome. I think. Yeah, with that, it's like we have to give space to help people learn and not do it in a judgemental way. And yeah, we all just we're all just on that journey and we can't be ashamed of the stuff we don't know. Because you do what you do, what you do with the tools that you have. And, you know, if you didn't have the right tools, that's what you hope is just on to pick up better ones. So yeah, I kind of like a spot, like a toolbox.

Gemma Styles [00:41:19] Every week my guest and I will be answering your questions. On the first one comes in from Maria, who says, I'm 39 years old and live in Athens. I have quite a few questions about expectations, but let's stick to the getting married slash having children issue. Why do people think that this is the only way to happiness and a woman's only purpose in life? This idea is quite prevalent in my country, even on birthdays. It's the most common wish people give you. Along with the quote you're not getting any younger reminder. What if I don't want kids now or ever? People also tend to think, since I'm good with kids, then I should have my own. And then key question again. Why is it so hard to accept that each one of us has a different perception of what happiness is?

Alex Light [00:42:01] So I'm going to answer this, but actually using something that I said the other day, because we talk about this a lot, actually, we talked about it on the podcast and it's like we we humans find it very difficult to relate to one another in terms of like if we feel something strongly, we find it difficult to believe that the other person doesn't feel it at all. So people that have a really strong biological urge to have children cannot fathom that other people don't don't have that and don't want that. Hence the whole like, are you sure? Narrative or the whole. Like you'll change your mind or just your way, you know, until you hit 30 or 35, and then you'll want kids. And I just think I think it's I think it's a lack of understanding. And also, this is something that we have been taught. That's what we do. That's what women do. We, like, make ourselves pretty so that we get a man and then we get married and we reproduce. Like that's what we have been taught.

Gemma Styles [00:43:06] That was supposedly the most followed. Heteronormative prison of our lives.

Alex Light [00:43:11] Exactly. So when we go against the grain, that feels uncomfortable for people, probably for a multitude of different reasons, but it feels uncomfortable and people don't understand it. And so I get why people I get why there's a lot of questioning around, around and to people that who don't want children, I understand that. But as with everything else we've talked about, like it's their issue, not yours. But it's frustrating and annoying if you've made that choice. You don't want children. And that's not that's your choice. To have it constantly questioned and picked out is really frustrating. But yeah, like we said, going back to everything, like it's, it's totally about them and not about you and just yeah. Straight, you know what you want, which is great. And you've chosen a path which works for you, which is fantastic and stay strong to that.

Emily Clarkson [00:44:02] What she said.

Gemma Styles [00:44:03] Yeah. Love that. Great answer. I mean. Yeah, I just think, I mean, even. Even as someone who isn't particularly going against what society might expect of me. I mean, I'm 31 years old. I've been in my relationship for seven years. I get asked when I'm getting married, I've been at least once a week and that's in person. Like, it's just it's one of those things always swirling around. And I think it's also it's one of those things that. That expectation is kind of like sexism as an issue to me. What people think when we talk about sexism, we're only trying to fix it for women. But actually it harms men and other and marginalised genders as well. It just harms everyone. And this kind of idea, I think, whether or not you're planning on taking that kind of quote unquote traditional route in your life or you're not. The constant kind of questioning about it is just bad for you, whatever you're doing. Yeah. How we can't let go of is. Yeah.

Alex Light [00:45:09] And how people think that. And I the audacity of people to think that you don't really have made the right decision until they say to you, Are you sure? And then suddenly you've you've said, Are you sure? And actually, now I've changed my mind. It's like it's. But yeah, the pressure is intense. I mean, I'm nearly 34 and I only just. Well, I got married last year, but it's. It's constant. Like there's this pressure to have children and you really like. I feel it so much to the point where I feel like. Like I drink decaf tea, and I just. I just do for my anxiety. And I feel like I have to say I'm having decaf tea, but not because I'm pregnant. Yeah, because people.

Gemma Styles [00:45:48] Are just always ready to be like, oh.

Emily Clarkson [00:45:50] Always. The deliveries during the coffee shop that I go to every morning out a decaf decaf coffee than anyone. Oh, is that because I honestly, I was like, how fucking day. Sorry, I swore again, but how dare you? You, how dare you? I don't know why it annoyed me so much, but I just think it's the most. The more we learn about other people, the more we learn about people's issues and people's lives. And it's so irritating that we consistently and I only can say this because I know I've been one of these people that's thought that my way is the best way, that people still have to inflict their brain, like their thoughts on your life, on you. And I'm like you. This is do you want to raise the child? Do you want to shove it out of your vagina? Because then we'll chat. You know what I mean? Until that day, until you are going to carry it around and like sort of turn into like a cow, then, then we'll chat. But until then, you can.

Gemma Styles [00:46:48] I just I honestly think we just need to ban asking women if they're pregnant or not forever.

Emily Clarkson [00:46:54] Unless you're going to ask men at the same speed like which they just wouldn't. If alcohol's for decaf coffee, then is that because you're looking after your sperm? No, they wouldn't ask him. They just give him a decaf go because we all.

Gemma Styles [00:47:06] For the benefit of anyone who doesn't know this is I'm talking about your husband, not about Alex talking to.

Alex Light [00:47:12] Me.

Gemma Styles [00:47:12] I was the only one.

Emily Clarkson [00:47:14] That you know that unless is a lot of confusion, we have girl, island, boy. Oh, now.

Gemma Styles [00:47:19] It's all good. Okay, let's move on. Because otherwise we could do another whole episode on literally that one question. Okay, so this is kind of an amalgamated question because a couple of people that are similar things and it's kind of on the theme of how do we deal with our own expectations of our lives when our plans or, you know, what maybe we thought might happen is interrupted. So for example, there was a question that came in from Farai who said that she felt like she was off track of what she and everyone else kind of expected of her because she had spent she spent a block of years studying for exams and feels like other things have kind of fallen by the wayside. And there's also a question from Tamara, who said she felt like she missed out on a chunk of her early twenties while she was in eating disorder recovery and now kind of struggles to. To look at her own expectations of herself and her own life and kind of feel like she's off track. I'm going to have to kind of then roll that up into an actual question because I've just talked about you, but how do we how do we kind of aside from other people's expectations of us, how do we try and let go of our own expectations of those when those things get? Waylaid.

Alex Light [00:48:38] You know what? I just. Sorry. I was answering from my experience with actually two things either. When I was I mean, I very much had expectations for what my life was going to look like if I was going to get married and then and then have children. And I was with my ex-boyfriend from when we were 18 until I was almost 30. And we broke up when I just before I was 30. And it felt like my world had completely turned upside down. And all these expectations for what my life was going to look like were just had been literally flipped on their head. And it actually, I feel initially I really tried to fight it and be like, no, I've got to you know, I've got to do something quick. I've got to get my life back on track. And actually, it was only when I and it was my mum that really helped me with that. She was just like and I do have to say, if anyone listening like that was so young, but it just didn't feel at the time, like for what I was expecting and the path that my friends were on, it felt very suddenly like I was really like my life was completely different to everyone else around me. And as someone who very much likes to follow the crowd, that was terrifying. And and my mum was like, hang on, take a deep breath. Like, you're absolutely fine. And like, this is your reality now, and that's okay. And let's see what happens from there. And that was the best thing. That was the best thing that anyone like said to me because I was like, Oh, hang on, I'm absolutely fine. I'm totally fine. And once you lean into that and like and I think like and was saying before, like one of the best things we can ask ourselves is why. And then like the second best thing we can ask ourselves is like, why not? You know, like, why not this path now? Like, okay, so now I'm single, I like I can't be single now at 30 and then like but why not? Why not? Like, what's wrong with that? Like, it's okay. And if you can lean into that and explore that and like fight that a little bit, I think just your expectations like, oh, you can never like life is so unplanned. And I think the more plans and expectations you have, the more you're just going to be disappointed because it's, you know, because life is unlikely to live up to those. So I think, yeah, it's I think it's really powerful when you can let go of that and be like, okay, I'm going to go wherever this takes me.

Emily Clarkson [00:51:10] I also think like you get you get a choice. And I again, because I always had very high expectations for myself and for everybody around me, it was it's very easy then to feel resentment when things go the wrong way. And it often leads to unhappiness is a very direct route to unhappiness, really about resentment because you resent those two things. I actually said it in the podcast recording that we got we did yesterday together that I get very angry with myself and I'm much more likely to get angry with myself than I am with anybody else because I do hold myself to this really high standard. And if things aren't going the way that I want them to, which they literally never do, then I get I get irrationally angry, you know, I get I get really, really, really angry. And I hate the feelings inside me. I hate how I am making myself feel. And something that I've learnt through coaching is that you do get a choice. If someone said it's a really powerful thing, it's like, you know, when you moan about the traffic you have to realise that if you're stuck in traffic you all the traffic and it's like.

Gemma Styles [00:52:15] Oh my God.

Alex Light [00:52:16] Say that again.

Emily Clarkson [00:52:17] If you're, if you're stuck in the traffic than you are the traffic, right? Oh yeah. So it's really easy just to be so ego led and to feel like a victim. I feel like all this bad stuff is happening to you and feel annoyed and feel resentment. Everything I felt stemmed in this resentment that I wasn't pretty like other people and in my own head. I really struggled with my parents for a long time and I didn't think I was pretty like everybody else and I didn't think I was organised like anybody else. And as I got older I found all these other things to, you know, berate myself for and, and actually it's only as I'm getting older that I'm like, Oh my God, I don't have to feel like this. I don't have to feel like this. I don't have to resent myself. I can just accept sometimes that this is the way it is. And I haven't got to be angry about it. I haven't got to shout at the car in front of me that I'm stuck in a traffic jam, because when I do that, I'm not angry with him because he's going to work. I'm angry with me that I got in the car, that I didn't leave. As always, I didn't leave earlier. But I get so angry and I project it straight onto him and I'm just using traffic as an analogy, but I'll do it all the time. I used to hate other women because I thought they were. I would put them against myself though they're pretty than me, so I wouldn't like them because I pursue them and it works kind of the same thing, right? But I think I always project my own anger onto other people or onto other things because I'm angry and my. Sells for whatever it is, because I've help myself to an expectation of my fault and show. And all I feel is anger. And I hate feeling anger like I am such a odd emotion, which is exactly who I want to be and with who I am as a person. I am optimistic and I love the outdoors and I just love life. So what I feel all of this anger, it makes me it's a vicious cycle because it makes me even angrier with everything else. And then that makes me even angry with myself that I'm ruining my own life and my own day by just being a dick when I don't need to be. And so just choosing is I'm actually just going to put this down right now, like we all where we are and I am who I am. And that's just going to have to be okay today because there's loads of other cool shit in the world and look how stunning this is and like, let's go Mallomars and look at a butterfly. And I know that sounds bonkers, but it's like it is an active choice that I make now when things annoy me and it's like something comes into my head and it's like I press and I'm going to show an age here. But, you know, it's like you press the eject button on the cassette. I'm going to flip it. I'm not having this. I'm going to I'm listening to side B because A is just not what I need for my insides right now. And that's been really fun for me to like choose different thoughts which elicit different feelings. That's cool. If that asks.

Gemma Styles [00:54:51] If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter at Good Influence US. Or you can email the podcast at Good Influence Pod at gmail.com. Before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest, and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please recommend those? Something to read, something to listen to and something to watch.

Emily Clarkson [00:55:17] I to read. I would say anything by Caitlin Moran, particularly her early books. They completely changed my life and made me realise, well, that my life is a lie and that things could get better. Right. Let's listen to this. A song by an artist called Orla Gartland, and it's called You're Not Special, Babe. And I listen to it every single time. I need reminding that I'm not the only person in the world and that everybody feels like I feel and I'm not alone.

Gemma Styles [00:55:42] That sounds.

Emily Clarkson [00:55:43] So good. And then to watch, I would go onto Instagram and follow the life coach Jacqueline Hearst and I would watch every single video she ever makes because it would blow the top of your head off every single day and make you in.

Gemma Styles [00:55:57] A good.

Emily Clarkson [00:55:57] Infinitely happier person.

Gemma Styles [00:55:58] Excellent recommendations. Thank you.

Alex Light [00:56:01] Love. Okay, so for me to watch, I am a bit of a Brené Brown fan. I just love her. And she did a talk called Why Your Critics Aren't the Ones Who Count. And it's essentially it's a twist on what you were saying. I'm about don't take criticism from someone you wouldn't take advice from. And she says basically that the only opinions that should matter to you are from the people in the arena with you, and not the people looking on from the side are not getting their hands dirty. And I really love that book. Why Has Nobody Told Me This Before by Judy Smith, which is recently I think it's a fairly recent one, but it's absolutely.

Gemma Styles [00:56:41] Previous guest on the podcast. Dr. Julie We love her.

Alex Light [00:56:44] Love that, love that. And she it's amazing helping to understand our minds better, but it has a really good chapter on a lot, you know, tying up a lot of what we've been talking about on self doubt and dealing with criticism. That really gets to the root of why it affects us so much and how we can manage it and acknowledges, which I think is important, that we you know, we can't just say to ourselves like don't go so don't care because you do care. But it gives it teaches, teaches us tools of how to manage it. And so I would say to listen, I'm going to echo I'm here to listen to anything that Jacqueline Hurst, who is a life coach, she Jacqueline actually came on our podcast twice. We got her in twice because so much. And she basically we had two live therapy sessions with her. And what she says is it's just magic. And I wish I could bottle up her mindset because it's amazing and it'll really teach you to give less Efficaces That's all right. It was because we've already we've already seen too much. And I also love anyone who's interested in all of this stuff, because all of this stuff as well is is rooted in psychology. And anyone who loves psychology will love the podcast Hidden Brain. And it also helps you understand your brain so much more. And it's fascinating. That's me done.

Gemma Styles [00:58:04] Thank you for listening. And thanks again, Alex and Em for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using and if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating on the review as well. You can also head over next week to the Should I delete that podcast? Why the guest and host roles are reversed on I'm interviewed by Alex and I'll see you over there or see you next week.