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Gemma Styles [00:00:02] Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where I welcome our guests to discuss their experiences, answer your questions and teach us something new. This week we're talking about gender and activism, experiencing the world outside of binary norms, how much society needs to understand about gender and how to have kind of productive conversations about identity. So joining me this week is Rain Dove. Rain is a model actor and activist known for subverting expectations of gender and clothing. Rain has modelled alternately as male and female in shoots, while personally choosing to use no particular pronouns. At the beginning of the war in Ukraine, Rain founded grassroots organisation Safe Vote, which worked to help more than 20 trans and queer people who were stuck in the country safely across the border.

Rain Dove [00:00:55] Turns out when you upset people, it's quite fashionable.

Gemma Styles [00:01:01] So first up, would you like to just tell us a bit about yourself and how you came to activism around gender sort of issues?

Rain Dove [00:01:09] Sure. Well, first of all, my name is Rain Dove. Rain ike from the sky Dove like the bird. And I think that. Activism has always been a part of my existence, and I think actually activism is a part of everyone's existence, you know, because our existence is resistance. It's resisting the vast void of non-life in the universe. And we are here like breathing and our hearts are beating. I don't think I've ever really defined myself as an activist until moderately recent. And I think that the word activism is a really loaded word because it can be quite capitalistic in some senses and quite definitive in activism as a spectrum. But for me, coming into the identity of of adding that as a way that I would introduce myself is I would say maybe a couple of years ago I realised that when you don't feel good, you have to do good. And the choosing of the doing, the privilege of the choosing, of the doing that and that that's when I realised like I am an activist because I am actively choosing to show up outside of the realm of my own self, my own space, and I am actively choosing to be in spaces where people's intentions are to expand the equalities and the accessibility of other beings and individuals on the on the planet and gender specifically. I mean, yeah, there's I can't call myself a gender activist, I don't think because I am just existing. I don't really like the idea that my existence is a complicated issue, but it is, you know, so I would say if you had to call existence resistance activism, as we had talked about earlier, that I would say I've probably been a gender activist since the minute I punched my way out of the box.

Gemma Styles [00:03:08] You know.

Rain Dove [00:03:10] So I had to fight to get out of there. You know, my parent is very small and I'm very big, so I couldn't wait to get out.

Gemma Styles [00:03:21] So, I mean, obviously, thank you for kind of sharing how you feel about activism as a sort of label, both for yourself and for the people. In terms of modelling, I feel like that's why maybe some people may have first heard of you or might not know that that's kind of something else that you do. How was your modelling experience kind of become such a talking point? Kind of give us a give us a bit of your sort of history of how you're different as a model.

Rain Dove [00:03:50] All right. I never really thought I had ever become a model. In fact, I used to make fun of them growing up. I grew up in a very rural environment and we made fun of people who would spend money on, you know, $3,000 on a Chanel purse when we knew that could pay someone's rent for a year at the time. But I was homeless in San Francisco. I had made friends with an individual who happened to be a model at Deakin Y and we were watching a football game and I just made the wrong choice of what team was going to win. And as a result of losing, she sent me to what she thought would be the ultimate punishment. A casting call for a Calvin Klein charity show. Wow. And when I went there, they said, You're here on the wrong day. And I looked around and I'm like, They must have my hair colour because everyone here is like redhead or blonde. And I was the only dark haired person in the room. Make sense. You know, the hair colour did clash with the clothing. And it turned out actually that when I came back on the day they secondly assigned me. It turns out that they thought I was man, which has happened throughout my life, and it didn't really bother me at all. So I did the casting. I got cast and on the day of the show they handed me a pair of underwear and they said, Go put on your outfit, and then we're just going to get right into it. And I'm like, Where do I get my outfit? And I said, That's it. And I realised I was in a Calvin Klein men's underwear show. Now I have double these and sometimes they're at the top of the month. And I knew I had two choices in that moment. One choice, I could say, Thank you very much for the opportunity. Please take back your fine garments because I have some things on my body that may not align with the particular marketing scheme you have in mind for the show. Or I can make my friend just as embarrassed as I was to be there. And so I went for the second one and I burst out of the dressing room, went right down the runway before anyone could stop me fully topless, dressed in my underwear and upset just enough people that people remembered. And they reached out and they started asking me to do other work for them. Because it turns out when you upset people, it's quite fashionable. I originally hopped on the Yes train for modelling because of the fact that I knew if people could afford those Chanel purses, they could afford to make a difference in people's lives because socioeconomic division is the biggest. I think oppression on the planet is the biggest shared oppression. And if I could reallocate monetary resources, I would. I never thought that gender would be an issue because on television they always showed that fashion was quite queer. You know, all the designers are gay and all the models are strange, right? And I thought I would fit right in. But it turns out that. It was very still very controversial, still very taboo. And also, I was the first model to be signed to both a men's and women's agency who did not have a gender identity at the time and the first model to ever be on the cover of a men's and women's magazine at the same time that didn't have a gender identity. And at first, I didn't really feel that it was so important to talk about gender and things because they have just been faxed to me in a certain way. I've always felt kind of like an alien, and I never really expected people to understand. So I really haven't had to fight for anyone's understanding. I feel like I just flow through the world like water, and I just exist around people hoping for the best of intentions rather than the best of understanding or pronoun. But when a BuzzFeed article took off and my social media literally blew up overnight, people from around the world started writing and talking about how lonely they felt and how they felt. They feel like people think that there's something wrong with them because they want to exist outside the realms of what has always been to be something that they know that they are, which is maybe not definable by language and. A lot of people asked me to be a little bit louder, to work with other people to help communally elevate each other's voices. And that's kind of where the idea of like activism around gender kind of popped out. So instead of just modelling, I was coming up with very specific campaigns. How can we address, you know, the narrative? How can we talk to some of the most oppressive or the most limiting power entities in the world? For instance, Victoria's Secret. They say they have the most beautiful women in the world on their runway. How can we talk to them about that? So my career had stopped being waiting for people to choose me to put in their campaigns and starting to choose myself, starting to choose this community, coming up with carefully constructed, basically outwards, fashion out first.

Gemma Styles [00:08:18] Yeah.

Rain Dove [00:08:19] And that's and that's kind of like what's brought me to here, because people think they have a hard time looking away from something that's a little explosive.

Gemma Styles [00:08:27] Sure. I mean, how do you try and balance that? Because, I mean, what I am kind of hearing you say is that you're not really you were never really looking to to make yourself political another not that you felt that you had to either. So how do you kind of balance that now that it seems like people probably have more of an expectation of what you're going to be doing? How do you balance that with just taking care of you and existing as a person and not kind of. You know, not. Not people taking too much for me. Hmm.

Rain Dove [00:09:03] Actually, my most recent post on Instagram was about this because it's quite difficult, right? There is this thing that occurs, especially within people who have experience, marginalisation or oppression, where we can oftentimes feel obligated to continually give, give, give to the people around us in almost a performative way, not to assuage our own guilt, but because we don't feel good, feeling good, we're not okay being okay because we understand what it's like to not be okay. And so it's hard to sit still when things are going well. For me, I tried so many different things every single like, you know, mental health retreat or or you know, of course therapy is is very useful in its various forms. Try positive music. I've tried making it so that I have specific days where I work and other days where I don't. But what I've actually realised has been the best thing is. I accept the fact that the work that is being done is worthy and wonderful in that it also comes in waves and that will align itself with depression. It will align itself with expression, wanting to be creative. And I've learned to just ride the wave and to not see joy as the goal. Joy is not my goal. Happiness is not my goal. It's not because happiness isn't wonderful. It's because happiness is not the only valuable emotion. I found a way to love my depression, to love when I'm not feeling great, to figure out like how to be really present when things are going well, and to kind of just trust that everything I am doing and everything that I am not doing is all a part of the purpose of this existence. And I feel like when I let go, I stopped panicking because I feel like we always try to climb this mountain to reach something of a summit. But I don't think we have to panic about going up or down. You know, we just have to be.

Gemma Styles [00:11:01] I can relate to that on a certain level. I definitely don't think I would have got to the stage where I would love my depression, but I can definitely relate to the kind of, yeah, like leaning in and kind of letting it happen. The thing of, you know, not not fighting against it all the time. I think it's, yeah, something I would probably feel quite similar. Okay. So you mentioned kind of social media and how you were sort of communicating even recently about the way you were feeling. I think. A lot of maybe what people would have seen like this side of your maybe activism that people would have seen is maybe on social media. I'm quite I'm really interested in the kind of videos that you make, and I think you've probably have got something of a unique perspective in terms of because you have had that background, like even just in the modelling sense of kind of, you know, just get men's clothes dressing in women's clothes, like being kind of very accepted in both of those genres, if you like. It seems like you're quite comfortable kind of leaning into both of those, and that makes for some really interesting kind of experiment kind of content that you've done. I'm thinking particularly of like videos that you've done. Which I thought were really interesting from a mental health perspective as well as that there was one video that you did about crying on a train. Yeah. Talk. Talk us through that a little bit because I thought that was really interesting.

Rain Dove [00:12:28] So one of the interesting things is that I do get to be perceived as any and all genders. People think that I am a this woman, this man, trans woman, trans man. And some people think I just they're not. They don't know where I'm going, but they don't think I've arrived there quite yet, which is perfect, is beautiful. As a result, I get to sit in the quite literal locker rooms of of every gender identity, and I can hear exclusive conversations and see quite unique perspectives and brainwashing that the other group has not yet quite demystified. I've also been rejected from all these groups and it's quite dangerous when people don't believe I belong in a space because a lot of people do think I am trans and as a as a result that I can, you know, trans trans people, especially trans women, are one of the most targeted groups on the planet for violence. As a result, I started doing these gender experiments because a lot of people don't understand how one person's life can be radically different just by being perceived as a different gender identity or expression. And the train one was really fun. It's really simple. I was I had a I had gotten broken up with and I was having a hard time one time. And I remember crying on the train and I was in societally masculine clothing by your. But y'all's definitions not my own. But so and I was I felt so alone. And when I took off my jacket because it got warm, I was wearing a tank top. And just not that breasts make a woman or a female identity. But this is how society will sometimes just pinpoint. And suddenly I had people coming to sit with me and check in with me and make sure that I'm okay. So I decided to do a video on the train. We got a bunch of really great volunteers to quietly record secretly all over the the train car and just in societally masculine and societally feminine aesthetic and attire, which, by the way, I do not believe in. But this is how society sees things. I just cried on the train for we did several train rides and just tried to see what people's reactions were when it came to the societally masculine aesthetic. When people often thought I was male, they thought I was mentally ill. These are really common things that they thought I had a mental health obstacle and people didn't want to approach me because it was scary. It was scary to them, and the people who did approach me were almost always people who identified as mothers, which I thought was quite interesting. Neither are societal men or, you know, suicidal single women approached me, but mothers said they would reach out across with their baby prams and things and make sure I was okay when they thought I was a man. But when people thought I was a woman. And I think a lot of people probably thought I was a trans woman, even there was a lot more engagement. I don't think I could go even half a stop without someone handing me a tissue or checking in to see how I'm doing. And almost every you know, this happened in London and, you know, the percentage of the white population is quite high in the UK in general, even though the city of London is quite multiracial. But the reason I bring that up is because when you watch the videos back, you'll notice that about nine out of ten of the people who reached out were bipoc actually individuals to check in if I were okay. And I thought that was quite interesting because almost all of those people thought it was a trans woman and that was really, really beautiful. Now, this is not an accurate depiction of what people is. Experience would be all around the world. And I'm not trying to tell everyone that this is the male experience and this is the female experience. Yeah, I'm trying to tell people that there's a whole part of our life that we're missing out on by assessing the world in a way that limits people to labels and the ideologies and expectations and expectations that have to come with those labels. For me personally, my life is radically different and I just want to live the best life that I can live. Which is why for me, I just identify as I and I present myself in a way where when I'm opening up my dresser, it's like opening up a toolbox and I'm trying to figure out what problems I want to solve in the world. How do I want to be a person who is having a lot of conversations that are controversial today? Do I want to just be invisible and bland? Do I want to tap into the bias of advantages that come to masculinity? And then do I want the biases and advantageous advantages that go to women? I wake up every morning in a world that says that my identity is not possible, and yet I know that my whole purpose is to find the possibilities most people will never experience. And I'm really grateful for it.

Gemma Styles [00:17:07] It's so interesting hearing you talk about it, and obviously because the way that you are, you know, just going about your business and, you know, trying to trying to do the best that you can in various areas it is so much about. What other people understand and not even about, you know, things that you're necessarily trying to learn, but it's kind of trying to pass on this information or kind of breaking down those barriers for a lot of other people. And I mean, it's the kind of thing like I mean, I don't mind saying it's an area of conversation that makes me slightly more nervous, but only because I don't want to say the wrong thing.

Rain Dove [00:17:44] You can ever say the wrong thing to me.

Gemma Styles [00:17:47] But I think that's that's you know, like I think that's how a lot of people feel and. You were talking about, you know, people's understanding. And I think the way that I think about it is that. No, I. I don't probably understand. You know, how. People who express gender differently. To me, I don't understand how they feel, but I also don't expect to understand. And I feel like that's maybe. Something I see a lot of difference in, as in you see a lot of people and it's kind of the well, I don't understand my experience. Therefore it makes me angry. What do you think people need to understand? Like what kind of level do we need to understand? What? What about gender? Do we need to understand in order to kind of let go of it a little bit?

Rain Dove [00:18:42] Well, let me let me do this real quick. I'm going to do a really short exercise with you is all right.

Gemma Styles [00:18:48] Okay.

Rain Dove [00:18:48] So all right. So what I want you to do is close your eyes for a second.

Gemma Styles [00:18:53] Mm hmm.

Rain Dove [00:18:54] And I want you to picture the colour blue. You see it?

Gemma Styles [00:18:58] Yeah.

Rain Dove [00:18:59] Okay. Open your eyes. So the colour blue that you were thinking of. Mm hmm. Was it blue like this?

Gemma Styles [00:19:07] Yeah. Not a cut. Yeah, kind of. I'd call it like I was thinking of maybe a sky blue, if that helps. For the sake of the tape that.

Rain Dove [00:19:14] There is a gorgeous sky blue outside. But what kind of sky? Stormy sky blue right before the sunset. Sky blue. The twilight of the midnight. Kind of like, you know, blue or a bright sunny day. No clouds in the sky. I'm going to.

Gemma Styles [00:19:28] Say like sunny blue.

Rain Dove [00:19:29] Hmm. Here's the thing. At the end of the day, we speak in ideas and we're not so individualistic about it. And we all think that we're speaking the same language because it's English or it's French or it's something that we've defined. But the thing is, we don't speak specifically, and therefore we don't connect specifically. When somebody says something like, I love the colour blue. They're not really saying anything. Because you don't really know what blue they're talking about. You can't get specific. Somebody just out of the blue, it doesn't really mean anything. It doesn't mean anything. Often times when you speak in these broad terms, I am a woman. Mm hmm. Okay, now what? What does that look like? You know, because if you say that a woman is someone with particular genitals and then you put a bunch of people who have those genitals in a room, are all those genitals the same? Do they all look the same? Do they all need to be treated the same? Do they all, like, smell the same taste the same, feel the same like. No. The thing is that we try to understand the world as simply as possible because there's so much and it's overwhelming. And the truth is, if we want to get to understand each other, we need to speak in more individualistic and specific terms. And we need to stop treating each other as ideas and start treating each other as individuals. When you talk about, you're worried about saying the wrong thing. Well, that could definitely happen if one is speaking as an and as an idea. But instead of seeing someone as an idea, get to know them as an individual. And if you don't know, you know, it's about finding out who that person is by how that person is. I really believe that. Who and how have the same letters or the same for a good reason. Because who we are is is how we are, not necessarily what we are or when we are or where we are. It's the how. You know, how we how we breathe and perceive the world. And when it comes to gender, for me, I am How? And I want to be treated based on the how I am, and that's what I wish more people would understand.

Gemma Styles [00:21:35] Every week my guest and I will be answering your questions on the first one comes in from an anonymous listener who says, I'd love to hear about what your take is on gender reveal parties or events for babies during pregnancy. It gets more and more popular, but to me it feels so contradictory to the efforts for giving less weight or importance to birth assigned gender or biological sex. Hmm.

Rain Dove [00:21:58] Well, I mean, I think that it's really difficult because gender is something gender and sex are things that are quite ingrained into people's religions and their cultures. And there can be so many things that people feel are parts of that child's destiny that they really want to support. However, for me personally, I feel that trying to define what something is by celebrating that thing before you even know that assumption, it's not that it's cruel or wrong, but it seems to me a whole waste of time. The thing is, is like when a child is brought into this world and they have a clean slate, the moment, the moment that you start trying to tell that person who they are, it's the moment they stop being who they are. They stop existing as a free individual or entity. So in my opinion, I believe that if if we could end gender reveal parties for the sake of pigeons everywhere, because there's always exposes and then in the sake of the environment, because we know a couple of places have been burned down over gender reveal parties. But I believe that we should. We should if we can, I would seize it. Otherwise, it's not fair.

Gemma Styles [00:23:23] Mm hmm.

Rain Dove [00:23:24] What do you really want out of? It? Seems selfish to me, but that's my opinion.

Gemma Styles [00:23:28] And I think it's a very far opinion. This question was from Fifi, who says, I would like to know why Raine rejects the term woman. Women who are gender non-conforming arestill women identifying as non-binary because one is gender non-conforming actually just reinforces gender norms. Mm hmm. Now.

Rain Dove [00:23:54] It's a great question. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:23:55] I mean, it's one of the things where I obviously don't I don't want to put something forward to you that's going to be offensive. I hope nobody is upset by about listening to it, because it's obviously coming from quite a quiet black and white place to begin with.

Rain Dove [00:24:07] I can send 1,000%.

Gemma Styles [00:24:10] But I think I felt it was a question that could be. Useful to talk over. And now I will actually let you answer the questions instead of for the rest of it.

Rain Dove [00:24:21] So first of all, I think it's quite wonderful that if you've reached out, because that means that if you didn't want to have a conversation, if you could continue to go and live their life and never open up the door at all, you know. But the fact that they came to the table and they're willing to put something forward. I just want to say thank you so much for taking the time to do that. When people have a difficult time accepting the shifting of language, especially language like woman or man. Right. Because these languages have they're not these words are not just labels. Words are ingrained in laws and limitations and things that have generationally disempowered or empowered people undeservedly based off from just the idea of what that individual is because of their genitals or because of their hormones. Right? Mm hmm. So I can understand that it's hard. There's an abandonment complex. Whenever anyone leaves, the team of someone that is is in a group of especially vulnerable people. Mm hmm. I personally and I'm not going to speak for all people. I'm not going to speak for all people who identify in an open way. But I think one of the most empowering things is that I took the word woman away because, first of all, the word woman was not invented by women. The word woman has historically been steeped in the disenfranchisement of anyone affiliated with that entity. And the word woman was not my own. I didn't choose it. I didn't get to make it. I didn't get to have it. I stopped being the idea of woman and I stopped being the I started being the idea of individual. For me, this is the ultimate freedom to say, I am I and I want you to hold me accountable for the I that I am. And I do not see any value for me personally. And having the word woman or man affiliated with me, I do not see any reason to hold on to a history of people who I have never been to make that a part of the future that I will live in the now that I currently exist in. Mm hmm. I also feel quite deeply in my own spiritual portion of my existence that I am more than the existence of my flesh or my mind. I believe that I am a multi-tiered existence, that we all have a lot of different ways in which we are both real and not real. And as a result, to try to reduce it down to the simplicity of my flesh or hormones just doesn't really seem practical for me personally. However, if you're not leaving, I will not abandon you or the fight that you have as a person who wants to protect anyone who has been disenfranchised or elevated based on the word woman, I will always show up for people who identify with that term to make sure that they are treated with love and respect should they choose that label to be a part of their life. And while I don't personally use that word for me, if you're in a place where you're like, I will always see you as a woman, whether you like it or not, you can't control that portion of my perception. It's okay. V You can see me how you want to see me because your perception is your reality. But your perception will never change the truth of how I know myself. Just like I can never change the truth of how you know yourself. And it's okay if we don't quite understand each other.

Gemma Styles [00:27:43] Pablo's lovely. Thank you so much. So my thought on reading that question is the. What Fifi was actually talking about were two different things and kind of forcing them together. So the idea that, you know, one of the sentences in that question was women who are gender nonconforming are still women. Mm hmm. And my thought that was, well, some of them will be. Yeah, sure. Yeah. But also that doesn't I mean, from from the sound of that question, it's a kind of thinking that anyone who is, you know, pro people, being able to determine everything about themselves and their own identities is kind of. Pushing for the fact that you don't say you are a woman who prefers. Typically masculine clothing or hobbies or any of these things that people like to gender. But everyone's now kind of looking at you going, Oh, well, you're not a woman then, and why don't you just come over here and why don't you advertise this and why don't you do something different? I'm not I don't I don't really see that happening a lot either. I feel like it's kind of this raging war that's being fought against something that isn't happening.

Rain Dove [00:28:59] Yeah. I mean, here's here's the deal. The idea that anything is gendered at all is so silly to me. Right. The it's very antiquated. The idea that, you know, you like to have your hair short, that's masking the idea that you like to wear a dress that's feminine. Makeup is feminine, in my opinion. I think that there are a lot of people who exist outside the realms of expectation. That doesn't necessarily mean that their label has to as well, or that the way that they identify has to. It's just because other people don't identify them within that realm, you know, and there are a lot of people who identify as women who are also gender non-conforming by societal standards. But in my opinion, I do not think that there is a way to not conform or to conform to gender. I think that everything is flowing. If anything, humans are not animal conforming because we're doing all this stuff to create a world that is quite unnatural and and make it a part of our natural existence, you know, our clothing is just fake fur and feathers and, and hides that that aren't real, you know? And I don't I don't really believe in gendering the material, in my opinion, you know. But I can understand how they're trying to make the space. And what I also hear from this is there's often a fear that there's a fear of pigeonholing people who identify with the word women into the 1950s expectation of women, long hair, lipstick, dresses like there's a fear of the hypersexualization of women through societal hyper femininity, by the way that we've defined it. And people are quite afraid of that. They want people to know that, like if you have if you use the word woman, that women can look like anything, that beauty comes in all forms, that that true equal expression means without expectations, that just because someone likes to wear a suit and tie, they should still be able to identify as a woman and and be seen as a woman. And that to be seen as part of a feminine, you know, kind of fun and expression. And I agree. I just I agree. Like I said, I would like to get rid of the ideas of expectation and really just handle people as individuals. I think that it's so silly that we look at someone and think this person is feminine or masculine. I in general, I just think we should just look at people and say, This person is this person. Mm hmm. Now, are there good? Which are bad? Which are they gonna be safe for me to be around or not? That's really the most important question.

Gemma Styles [00:31:34] Mm hmm. Totally. Okay. Now, last question. I thought it was quite, quite a fun question. I I'm already kind of assuming your your answer would be everything, but let's let's say maybe the things you would do first. Okay, So this last question from Jamie. Who says if a genie gave you three wishes to do gender anything for everyone, what would they be?

Rain Dove [00:31:58] Three wishes to d gender, anything for anyone?

Gemma Styles [00:32:01] Yes, indeed. Gender specific things across the board, I think was kind of the question. So I mean, yeah, I reckon you would go go for everything. But let's maybe pick like the three things you think we should try to get rid of the soonest.

Rain Dove [00:32:15] Okay. All right. All right. Language. Hmm? I'd be like, Jeannie, can you just reset language so there's no gender? There has never been laws around those genders. There has never been expectations around those genders. There has never been anything about genders in general. Everyone can forget and just start from a clean slate. Go, you know, disenfranchisement fixed overnight. Okay. Oh, so there's there's gender, I would say employment. I think if I could do gender employment, I would I think that the idea of having to work for money is toxic in general. I don't really like that. The whole concept of of capitalism that we have disenfranchising people. But while we do have employment, I think it should be the gendered 100% the hiring process, the expectation process, the whole jam and for a personal item that I think should be gendered, you know, there's this aspirin and it's called feminine X, and it's aspirin with a little bit of caffeine and it's like.

Gemma Styles [00:33:20] Okay.

Rain Dove [00:33:21] And they call it feminised because it's supposed to be the fastest working aspirin to help you with your, like, menstrual cramps. But it's really just like paracetamol with with caffeine. Anyone can have it, any person. And in fact is the fastest working, most effective. They should hire me. Where's my where's my paycheque is it?

Gemma Styles [00:33:39] Response is not sponsored by folks, but it should be.

Rain Dove [00:33:42] Yeah. I've always been I whenever I see this, you know I don't I don't use paracetamol as often. Very often. But whenever I do I use this one thing and I'm like, this is so silly that it's gendered. It really it's so unnecessary. Oh, and last but not least, if we could do gender stores, I think you should be able to walk into a store and buy things based on your measurements, your individual understanding of the measurements of your body, and you should just be able to buy based on the type of garment, I think that would get rid of a lot of colonialism, a lot of the gender bias, and also that there's a lot of fatphobia and things like that that occur. I wish that we could embrace having more accessible shopping experiences. Obviously.

Gemma Styles [00:34:27] If you want to hear about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter at Good Influence s or you can email the podcast Good Influence Pod at gmail.com. Before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest, and so could you please recommend us something to read, something to listen to and something to watch.

Rain Dove [00:34:49] For, Something to read. I would say read yourself. And what I mean by this is whenever you have a moment where you realise that life is different than it was at some other point, maybe it's improved a little bit or that things have changed. You should write that down. I really encourage journaling and I really encourage being able to go back and read your journal. It's important to know that our life is shifting because often we spiral into spaces that are really dark or we feel that we're stuck, but actually we're constantly stuck in unstuck. And the best way you can know how to navigate through that is to see that you've once been stuck in unstuck before so it can happen again. So journal and read your own words.

Gemma Styles [00:35:27] And something to listen to.

Rain Dove [00:35:29] While they obsesses Remi Wolf At the moment, I think Remi Wolff is just the coolest, you know, and I really love their music. I really love the space that they take up. And I really encourage anyone who just needs a moment of positivity. I know there's so much negativity right now in the world, difficult things going on to just sit and listen to some very well. Perfect.

Gemma Styles [00:35:51] Thank you. And finally, something to watch.

Rain Dove [00:35:54] Something to watch. There is a YouTube video called People Are Awesome. It's the Workers edition. And you see people who are doing their jobs as cashiers or their street sweeper, street sweeping or, you know, they're putting shampoo into bottles. But these people are absolutely excellent at what they do. And I think that it's really fun to watch because it reminds you that sometimes we have this idea, this aspirational idea that the thing we have to be really good at is like really, really big. But actually there's always something that we can master execute in our own lives. And it's so inspiring to see people getting so much joy out of the way that they've mastered. They're like a corner or space in their life that other people may overlook. And it just makes me so happy to see that, you know, and know that that sometimes we can find joy and purpose in places that we're not told or. Ball.

Gemma Styles [00:36:52] Thank you for listening and thank you for joining me. I'll finish by saying Rain and I are two individual people. We have discussed some opinions about gender here, and that's just what they are, opinions. I'm not trying to tell you exactly what you should think or feel about your gender or other people's. But I do believe that being more open to hearing and understanding other people and having these conversations is beneficial to all of us. If you enjoyed the episode, I would love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using, and if you're feeling generous, you can leave a rating under review as well. See you next week.