S02E08 Transcript: Ben Hurst on Toxic Masculinity

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Gemma Styles [00:00:02] Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest will help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week we're talking about toxic masculinity, where we learn our ideas about gender roles, how patriarchal ideas harm people of all genders, and why actually maybe the term toxic masculinity isn't always the right one. So joining me this week is Ben Hurst, as an activist model podcast and public speaker. He's the head of facilitation and training for Beyond Equality, an organisation which works with men and boys to explore and interrogate their thinking around gender equality, masculinity and inclusive communities.

Ben Hurst [00:00:48] We don't present any alternatives of like how fast masculinity can be. I think all of the messages you get as you're growing up are very specific and very defined.

Gemma Styles [00:01:12] So if we take a bit of a kind of deeper dive into toxic masculinity today. It is a term, I'd say, which has suddenly become a lot more mainstream and kind of widely used in the way that we talk about. Behaviours in our society, would you be able to give us for somebody who maybe doesn't know a bit of an overview of what the term toxic masculinity actually refers to?

Ben Hurst [00:01:39] Oh, it's so sticky. Do you know why it's so sticky? I don't. OK, so the best place to start is that I work for an organisation that works in schools and universities and corporate student stuff around gender equality and particularly through the lens of masculinity. And we we really try hard in our work not to use the phrase toxic masculinity, because I think what I find is it just pisses people off immediately and people evar that. One of two reactions, EVA, people are like, oh yeah, 100 percent agree with that. Or people are 100 percent disagree with that. And there's not really any in between. It's quite a polarising term, but I guess when people are talking about toxic masculinity, my understanding of it is that people are talking about what happens when masculinity is, I guess, kind of pushed to the extreme. Or I think also people are also talking about all of the negative aspects of masculinity, all of the negative characteristics and traits and norms. And we label those things as toxic and therefore that is toxic masculinity. But. Yeah, it's an interesting question, because I often find, like when when I interrogate people as to what they mean when they use the phrase loads of people don't really know. I think there's like a general like idea in the zeitgeist of what it is, a shared understanding, like where my mind goes. It's like I hate toxic masculinity. I think automatically of men are trash and and that is like where that kind of lives for me in that kind of area. And I spend a lot of time talking to men, so I try not to tell them that they're trash too much. But I try to I try to help us reach our own conclusions in a healthy way. And so, yeah, I that sorry. That's blatantly not answered the question, which is really annoying, especially if you didn't have a podcast. But yes, it's a weird term, but I guess the general understanding of it is like all of the negative parts of masculinity that have negative impacts on men and everyone else. And then we call those things toxic masculinity.

Gemma Styles [00:03:50] So I feel like what we usually say when I hear the term and I sort of see people using it to talk about, it's usually to me behaviours of men which go to be damaging or negative either to men themselves or then to women and other people of the genders. So to me then, I usually think you hear a lot of conversations about clothing, for example, of, you know, like what are what can men where not where sort of judgements placed around that and men not being able to express their feelings, I feel like is another one that you would talk about quite a lot. Are there other kind of key outcomes of these behaviours or kind of other other negative things that you see a lot that come up from these kind of masculine traits that may be the most favourable?

Ben Hurst [00:04:44] Yeah, so this is why it's so interesting to me, because obviously I work in it. So I really enjoy the conversation. But one of the things that I come across a lot when I'm talking, especially to adult men, less so to like boys, but especially to adult men, is that men feel the potential exists for anything they do to be labelled as toxic. And so I think when you're defining masculinity or what what the behaviours or the characteristics are, what becomes really hard is there's not much of a difference between positive masculinity and toxic masculinity. So, like, if you take any one characteristic like dominance, for example, like dominance is is bad in some scenarios and dominance is good in some scenarios. If you're running a business, you've got to be able to make decisions. You've got to be able to like there's times when you have to be able to take control of a situation. Right. And I think it's measured, I guess measured more often by the impact. So whether that's like being a provider or being a protector or is being like courageous or just being strong or being athletic or whatever it is, all of those things that I guess society would say are traditionally masculine characteristics can be positive or negative. And I think almost that when we start when we have the conversation about masculinity feels to me like we start in the wrong place and we start with the symptoms. So we look at the behaviours and we like this thing. Is the problem with that? Oh, the fact that this man wants to be a provider or the fact that men feel like they have to pay for dinner when they go out on a date is problematic. And I'm not I'm not I don't know whether it's problematic or not. It depends on the scenario. But I think that the real issue there is actually the conversation around power and the power dynamics and the power imbalance that exists in society and the fact that we live in a society that prioritises men just for being men. And I think once you start to deconstruct that, it will be like one thing I often say is that what's hard about the conversation is if you if we decided today that masculinity was no longer the set of characteristics we have now and we completely whacked it and we changed it to a whole new set of characteristics, and now masculinity is being kind and gentle and caring and nurturing and patient because of that power imbalance exists. All of those things can also become corrupted. Do you not mean that all of them can also become toxic? Anything can become toxic, but I don't think the toxicity comes explicitly from the actual characteristics or the or the behaviours. I think it comes from that power piece. So I think we spend a lot of time trying to deconstruct that piece and helping guys to understand their position and their position and where they stand in society. And then what responsibility or what privilege comes along with that. And then what can you how do you. Leverage that to make fairer for other people. Yeah, it's like if somebody's sick and you're like, ah, you've got a cough and a sneeze and we need to treat the coffin, the sneeze. I feel like we as a society are now in this space where we're spending a lot of time treating the cough and we're spending a lot of time treating the sneeze as opposed to figuring out what the underlying condition is. And and I think the underlying condition is that piece about power and privilege. Really?

Gemma Styles [00:08:17] Yeah, totally. I think that makes a lot of sense how you say that as well, because it's like when you think about how we also now quite often talk about, like, toxic positivity rather phenomenon. So like being positive isn't inherently about things. Surely that's a good thing. Yeah, you can, you can you can somehow manage, manage to make it something bad. So it doesn't mean that positivity or masculinity are inherently bad things. That's kind of how they get used. So from your point of view of saying, you know, we quite often come into this conversation in the wrong place and kind of start looking at the wrong thing when you are with beyonder quality going in and doing these workshops and stuff, where do you tend to start that conversation? Like where do you think is a good place to start?

Ben Hurst [00:09:03] So so we do start what we generally tend to start with, like looking at evah gender stereotypes that exist in society. So what if I'm talking to kids I'm not or what are the things that you experience, what the pressures that you feel like you face? And obviously I wouldn't sit down a 12 year old and be like, what are the pressures you feel that you should be? But like, we'll run an activity that kind of surface, those surfaces, those kinds of ideas. And when we're talking to adults, I think it's a lot more trying to create spaces for people to reflect on their own experiences and maybe pulling things out of those experiences. So it might be like one of the questions we often ask at the beginning of workshops is like, when was the first time you became aware of your gender? Which is, I think, a really interesting question. And the response from women is often lack quite drastically different to the response from men. I find that women like can remember a time when they were like eight years old, when they were told that they weren't allowed to wear certain item of clothing, or a man looked at them in a weird way in the street, or they were told that they had to behave this way because it wasn't safe for them to do something else. Whereas men seem to like just kind of float through life without ever having to really grapple with the idea of gender as a construct. But I think that's what privilege does. It makes itself invisible. So you don't notice and you don't notice how it kind of operates. And I think in creating that kind of space is, I think, really important, because actually one thing that we have in common is that we've all got a shared experience of masculinity. No matter what gender we are, we've all grown up in the world or grown up in this world where there are rules and there are norms and there are experiences that we all have. And so trying to pull out those things for people and help them to get into a space, because I think this is a conversation. Actually, I, I feel like we kind of exist in this like little liberal bubble where we think everybody is having these conversations. But the reality of life of the world is that most people are not talking about gender at all. Most people are not thinking about those kinds of conversations, apart from if something controversial comes up in the news and about why trans people shouldn't be allowed to use toilets or this weird stuff that happens and everybody jumps onto it. But beyond that, I don't know how much people are really taking time to sit down and reflect. So we try to create that space where people get to think about it for themselves and reflect on that stuff. Like what did you learn from your same sex parent or carer about your gender? Like, what did what did you learn from your dad about masculinity? What did you learn from your mom about femininity, or what did you learn from your dad about femininity and your mom about masculinity? And how where do those things come from? Where do we pick them up? And I think once people start to do that kind of. Reflection on where these ideas in these constructs come from, then it allows you to kind of point out that it is a construct and I think that's a really good place to start the conversation, actually, because I think there's also still I find anyway in workshops that there's still a shared understanding that these things are biological. And I would argue that they're not, like, inherently biological. I think they're quite societal. But, yeah, I think that's that tends to be like a cool place to get to. And then I think once we get there, then it's interesting to define as a group what we're talking about when we're talking about masculinity. And because, again, I think we kind of walk into these conversations with the assumption that everybody thinks the way we think about things. And actually people don't like the amount of times we run workshops. And there's one person in the workshop that's like, oh, yeah, my dad was stoic and he didn't didn't talk. And then there's another person who's like my dad was a feminist and my mom was the breadwinner in our family. And for those two different people, they're talking about very different things when they're talking about masculinity. So I think it's important, whoever you're working with, to give them the space to kind of define stuff and take bits out. And actually, I think that's indicative of what the whole process is like, defining and then deconstructing and then redefining. And and I feel like that's the best way to have the kind of conversation around gender and especially around masculinity.

Gemma Styles [00:13:27] Yeah, I feel like that could probably apply to so many things that we come to all of these conversations expecting that everybody thinks exactly the same way that we do and it's just not true. So I feel like that's a good thing to remember in any of these conversations. And so you mentioned about talking to people, about where they learnt their kind of ideas about gender from their parents and those kind of examples. Would you say that tends to be the biggest influence or that of the places that these kind of ideas tend to come from? Like once kids go to school, for example, do they tend to then pick up a lot more from that? Because I know, like personally friends, you've got kids. And I think these days especially and like you say in the liberal bubble, I think parents are very aware of trying not to teach these things to their kids or trying to, you know, trying to teach their kids about emotions and, you know, bring them up in a way that means they're going to be, one, a pleasant member of society. And two, you're going to be happier in the long run. But, you know, then you send them to school or maybe a bunch of other people say, like, why would you say you got the most influence from on these kind of things, sort of like throughout your life?

Ben Hurst [00:14:43] Is that such a good question? And you know what? I don't know if there's I don't know if I can give an answer for it for other people, because I think it's really different for different people. I would say there's a there's a if I think about my own experience, I definitely learnt a lot from my dad about what men were supposed to be like. And then I had an extended family. So I had uncles, cousins, older cousins who also taught me all of these ideas about what men were supposed to be like. And then I went to school and I had like a couple of male teachers in primary school who I probably subconsciously was like, oh, that's what men do. And that's why I know that, like, I feel like I know I did that because I've got I've got six nieces and all of them, like around the age of four who are coming home from nursery boys are disgusting. They stink. And I was like, wow, where does that how do you kids stink? I mean, like, you smell like I don't know how you've managed it, but I think it's like the books that they read and the songs even on kids TV, these songs and ideas like that, you get about gender. Like I remember being a kid and watching Dennis the Menace and being like hope was like playing with worms. And I didn't like playing with worms. I mean, like I liked playing with my sister's hand-me-down Barbies and stuff. But I also like playing with my Asherman. So I think there were all of those kinds of ideas. And then as you get older, more of those kind of ideas that just kind of float around start to permeate a little bit. And I know for me it was like when I was like 11 and 12, I was at home like if I got home from school before my parents got home from work, I was like watching MTV base and listening to, like, 50 Cent singing Pimp. And just again, all of those kinds of ideas of like what masculinity is kind of start to get into. And kids that grow up like in football have a very specific image of like what men are like. And I think that happens to everyone. Like I remember watching James Bond with my you not I mean, I'm thinking, oh, yeah, when I'm older, I'm going to be like that. That's obviously I'm not. But like I remember watching it and being like, oh yeah, that's that's cool. And not it's not like formalised. Right. You're not like that's masculinity. And this is what, meniscal. Used to be like, you just see things and you're like, oh, that's what I want to do or that's how I want to be, or that's what I'm supposed to do. So I think it comes from Los Angles, man. It's black media from family. A lot of the stuff I picked up was from religion, from growing up in a church community. And again, like very rigid and set ideas about and not necessarily bad ideas, but just very set ideas of what men are supposed to do and who men are supposed to be and the roles that they play in that family and in community. But I think that's where the danger is, is when it becomes prescriptive. I think it becomes hard because there's always going to be people who don't fit into that. And and so for those guys, like, we don't present any alternatives of how fast masculinity can be, I think all of the messages you get as you're growing up are very specific and very defined. So I think I actually think it's really hard to like a part of me feels really sad for kids. And I think girls get about femininity as well. There's a reason the kids are born workstations or kitchens when women are like four years old, you know, I mean, for their first toys and that kind of stuff. And yeah, it's weird. You never really see little boys walking around with black babies, but you see little girls that pushing around pushchairs. And so all of those kind of ideas about what you're supposed to do start so early that you probably don't even know. It's like I don't think any of us are really like, oh, this is a strange social commentary on who I'm supposed to be as a person. You're just like, this is what me and all of my friends do. So I'm going to do it.

Gemma Styles [00:18:32] Yeah, definitely. This is one of those things that must just kind of like seep into everywhere. Right. But that is. What you're kind of trying to, like, change and tackle with the workshops that you run so beyond equality, as it's now called, used to be called the Good Lord initiative. Yeah, right.

Ben Hurst [00:18:49] And the great initiative before the great 1758.

Gemma Styles [00:18:55] So even setting aside some of the time changes, how did that kind of come to be? Have you been with this project since the beginning? Like where where did that come from?

Ben Hurst [00:19:05] Yeah. So I haven't I haven't been here since the beginning. I've been here for about six or seven years now. And when I started I started as a volunteer at the Great Initiative. So I think the I forget the Origin stories. I'm really bad at remembering things like this. The best of my understanding is that Grey started as there was like a group of what you call them, philanthropists, I don't know. But like rich people who were like, you want to do stuff around, you want to do stuff around gender equality. We think that that's a like a really noble cause. I think that that's important. And we're going to start a charity that does work around that area to tackle that kind of issue. And so they were doing loads of fundraising stuff and I think went down the traditional kind of of like we're going to go and do stuff with starving kids in Africa because that's where that's where the heart of the problem is. And essentially, they just hired the wrong staff members, like they hired some people to run the projects. And they were like, we're not doing that. This is this is a terrible idea. Like gender equality is an issue here. Yeah. And we need to tackle it here. So there was a bunch of I think the first team started a school project that was working with boys, and I think it was originally called Great Men Value Women. So that was the project. It was to teach boys about violence against women and girls and what role they played in that and in preventing that. And then it went through like loads of different iterations. And I joined as a volunteer on that project. So I was working at a different charity teaching sex ed. And part of my job role there was to make a project about being a boys, being good men. And I remember sitting down to start this project and I thought, oh, shit. Like, what do you say to boys to convince them that they should be good men? Like, why? Why should they do that? And so I was researching loads of other organisations in the UK and like elsewhere in the world, and loads of people were saying stuff like, you have to like take boys into the forest and teach them how to chop down trees and teach them how to lay bricks and build houses. And then they'll get in touch with their masculinity and they'll understand that responsibility and hard work and they'll be good men. Right. And it didn't resonate with me, but not for the right reasons. At that time. I wasn't like, this is intellectually stupid. I was just like, I have pretty hands and I don't want to I don't actually want to go into the forest and top down trees. That's not my vibe at all. I'm not that kind of dude. And and so I found the great initiative and I called them and I was like, can we have a meeting? And we had the meeting now. And if they could share the resources and they were like, you can have the resources if you come to the training. So I went to the training just to steal the stuff. And and it was super weird because it was like for me the first time I've been in a room full of men where it felt like people were actually talking about stuff. And at that point I had no framework of like, yeah, intersectional feminism. I didn't know that that was a thing. I had no understanding of how all of that stuff worked. I'd done my degree in theology and I planned on being a pastor. And that was what I was going to do. But I got kicked out Bible College because I had sex. So that was C it was really real. It's another conversation for another time. But yeah, I came out of union. I had no real idea of what I was going to do. And so when I started volunteering, I was like, wow, this is a it's a place where I can learn stuff and I can understand stuff. And I've really struggled up until that point with cognitive dissonance. I really struggled with, like, holding beliefs that didn't kind of match up. And I think the idea that I had grown up with a spirituality and didn't match who I was becoming in the world and it didn't hold space, even my experiences of like race and prejudice and all of that kind of stuff doesn't doesn't really work. And then I started to explore this new framework and I thought, oh, this completely makes sense. Like, it kind of explains everything. And so I started volunteering there and then we ran out of money while I was there. And so we merged with the Good Lord initiative and they were doing similar projects in universities. And so we kind of merged those two projects together and were doing schools and universities work and then started doing corporate stuff as well. And so we've been doing that for like the last couple of years. And it's yeah, it's good work. And I think it's one of the things. I like about it is that it gives you when I started there as a volunteer, it gave me a very direct route into that challenging an issue that I could see and I didn't really know what to do about it. And so I think for loads of guys that volunteer with us, they see like the world around them. And they are like I grew up in this stuff that all of my friends grew up in this stuff. Everybody I know at work thinks this way or believes this kind of stuff. And I don't know how to challenge me. But if you can go back, there's a thing where people say, if you can explain something to a child, you really understand it. And so I think giving people the tools, one, to be able to have those conversations with kids by two, to be able to do the exploration in in themselves and with their own communities is like a really valuable piece of work. And I always say that the volunteers are the primary beneficiaries of the project. I feel like this has done so much more for me and change in my life and my understanding of who I am as a person than it does in three hours for a boy in a workshop. But also, I think for those kids. And if I if if I was at 14 and I had someone come into school and be like, yo, you don't have to do all of this crap, you can be whatever you want to be and you can do whatever you want to do. And not like in terms of like you can be an astronaut, just like all of the pressures that you feel. You don't have to live up to those kinds of ideas. And I think that's really yeah. I think it's really cool work. So I think it gives loads of people an opportunity to feel like they're having an impact in the world around them, which is nice, definitely.

Gemma Styles [00:25:15] And I mean, you kind of kind of mentioned before about how it is it's different when you're going into like maybe a corporate workshop with a lot of men, for example, as opposed to going into a school. Do you find you get kind of a similar level of resistance, whether it's like younger people or older people? Is it is it just expressed in a different way? Or do you think like younger people these days are a bit more willing to kind of see these things? Have they not had as much time to soak it in? Is it good to get in early?

Ben Hurst [00:25:46] I would say that adults are big kids. And I think what is really interesting is when you give lacking in corporate sessions, when you give adults the chance to like, be to and like in a in a session where then they have a responsibility that there were only responsibilities to be there and to contribute, they kind of revert in their mind to let the 16 year old version of themselves. I think all of us do it. I feel like because it feels like you're in school, so you start to behave like you did when you were in school. And and I think there is resistance across the board, but I think there's there's not as many cases of, like, belligerence as you would imagine there would be. I don't think we often come across guys, whether it's in schools or in universities or in corporates who are like, I just fundamentally disagree with this idea. I think a lot of people are really open to having conversations, which is encouraging. But then it is also scary because there are loads of people accessing some really weird media and especially kids like I think that's the big difference right now. When I was a kid and I was in school, I had like a 10 year I mean, like a Nokia phone could just about go in. And now kids have got that everything at the touch of their fingers, like they can access anything. And it's really hard to regulate what they're accessing. So there's a lot of ways, I think you are accessing some kind of weird MRA like men's rights activists and in so kind of forums and those kinds of like YouTube videos and starting to like understand those ideas. And I think I guess that's why it's important, is because you've got a I don't I don't think it's about proving anything to anyone without changing anybody's mind. I think that the real work is about giving people the tools to critically analyse material and to quickly analyse their own ideas. And I think that's a big part of that. Probably the education system that's missing. I know for myself, I didn't learn how to do that until I was in university, in uni. That's the first time I sat down to write an essay. And I was like, oh, I'm I'm actually expected to, like, take seven different people's opinions. And for my own opinion about what all of these. But you don't learn that at 12. So, no, I think giving kids the ability to do that earlier is really important because they they can access everything now. So they're forming opinions and views with no real sense of like what's true. And then we've got, like, all of this fake news stuff and just madness in the world, the like. How how does anybody even know what to think or what to believe? And how can you expect a child who can access all of that to to come to good conclusions? So I think I guess the big difference between adults and kids is that adults have probably got more fixed opinions. They probably think that. They they know what they think as opposed to last year thinking what they think. If that makes sense. So it's like they they're like all the things that I believe are definitely true as opposed to kids who are like, oh, I think this today. But then I learnt something in science somewhere. So I don't think that anymore. And I think as you become adult, a lot of us stop learning that right. Like we stop our minds, stop expanding in the same way they do when you're young. Yeah. So, yeah, kids are much more malleable in terms of like forming and changing ideas and opinions. But I would say in terms of the opinions that they hold, they're pretty similar across across all age ranges.

Gemma Styles [00:29:18] Yeah. I mean, like you say, that is encouraging that because I would kind of imagine, you know, you go into a workplace, you would get a fair amount of resistance, I guess. But I think I mean, I think it's I just think it sounds like a great solution to what is obviously a very ingrained problem, like I even think of quite recently where there was. A big, big case in the news that was a case of violence against a woman. It started a lot of things in the U.K. and it was a friend of mine has he works for like quite a large corporate company. And his employer sent around an email that was basically saying that anyone and mainly the women, they would send them or pay for any kind of like personal attack alarms and anything like that, which is obviously is, you know, is a good thing to do. That's that's great. But then he had done replied to the email, which I which I was like, well done was OK. But is are we going to do anything about about the men, her like? Is there anything we can do because they haven't done anything and you're telling them to be extra safe. But you know what, like what are we going to do about it, which I just think is OK then when you hear about workshops like Leiker, what you do, I'm like, yeah, that's that's what you need to do. And that seems to be, you know, there are people who want to learn this stuff as well. I don't think it has to be a case of, like, forcing it on men. And it's also when you talk about like. Well, if we talk about masculinity, toxic masculinity, like the patriarchy as a whole of a system, I think when you hear. I think people think that feminists will talk about, you know, the patriarchy is and like we have to dismantle anything that puts a man in charge. But actually it's not it's about like these kind of ideas. Yes, they end up harming women, but they harm men as well. So these kind of workshops, it's like it's genuinely just harm reduction from all sides as far as I can see it.

Ben Hurst [00:31:13] Yeah, because that's a that's a really interesting point as well. Right. Like men, men are or statistically anyway, men perpetrate so many more acts of violence than women. It's not say women don't perpetrate acts of violence. Black men, that the statistics say that men do that a lot more. But then I think we often think our men are really violent towards women, men, also violent towards men, which is what perpetuates this kind of idea that men have to be violent, whether it's lack for power or for protection, for self-defence. And I think even that kind of idea, like giving a kid the space to understand that drastically changes their approach to violence. And I do think it is really, really important that we're having these conversations because, like you say, men or men are really suffering. And I think that like mental health statistics that obviously reflect that. And I think there's a lot of a lot of conversations about the ways that that shows up for men, the ways that they are harmed. But then I think also it disproportionately impacts women and non binary and people of other genders. And in a way where it's just that the world is really, really not a very safe place. But everybody's attention seems to be focussed on how do we ensure that the people who are unsafe can protect themselves as opposed to how do we stop it from being unsafe? Again, that same symptom thing where we're like, oh, if sexual harassment on the street is the problem, women should do self-defence classes so they can beat up guys. But surely the solution here is not everybody in everybody or everybody having. That's an interesting conversation that comes up actually. Like when we talk about violence, I think loads of the kids, like we ask questions like, would you rather live in a world where everybody could be everybody up or would you rather live in a world where there was no fighting? And it's really interesting to hear their opinions because a lot of them would actually rather live in a world where everybody could be everyone up, which is that to me, really weird. Yeah, well, I think also there's there's a specific lens that they're looking through that that means that they a lot of them I feel like they're in a battle of survival. I mean, I think it's hard to tell someone that they're not allowed to think a certain way. But I think that's why we try and do the work of being like, OK, so why do you think that and where does it come from? And is that if you could decide anything, would that be the best conclusion for you to decide on? And if not, then how do we get to the other place? Is there a path that we can kind of chart where you can move towards something that's maybe more positive or less harmful for other people? But, yes, it's interesting because I think you've got to suspend a lot of judgement. Like there's a lot of stuff that you hear where immediate you're like, oh, my gosh, this is really bad. And then then you have to, like, interrogate a lot. But when things are interrogated, generally, they fall apart, you know? I mean, if something doesn't make sense and you ask enough questions, you realise it doesn't make sense. So that's like a fun bit of fun of the work.

Gemma Styles [00:34:26] Yeah. Yeah. I think it's it's interesting, like you say, the way we look at things and I think that also goes to show you, like, how important it is to talk about stuff and like look at the language that we use, because kind of as you were saying, it's when we look at all the statistics and things and even the statistics you talk about, and this isn't something I've realised. This is something I've read. The other if you look at it, we talk about statistics on violence against women in such an abstract sense. We don't we don't talk about who's doing the violence. It's like it's all then still focussed on women. So then, yeah, I don't know. I think I think it's such a such a good way to go in and try and dismantle some of these things that then you get to the root cause. As you say,

Ben Hurst [00:35:09] there's a really good TED talk. I'm not sure if you've seen it by Jackson Katz where he speaks about that, the language that we use around perpetrators of violence and that that kind of point that you're saying about how we we still focus on women. And then and then I think when you speak about it in that way, it stands to reason that people would think of that as a women's issue rather than lack. That's something that men have to stop other men from doing or somebody's got to stop men from doing that thing. We kind of I think there's this view in society that, like, bad things are just inevitable. I mean, there's no way to stop people from being violent or wanting to be violent or abusing or harassing other people. So we've just. Teach people how to deal with it. I take quite like an optimistic stance on that preventative work, and I imagine it is tough, you know, because I imagine as I get older, like, it will change a little bit. And I know people who have worked in, like violence prevention and work for women's aid networks and lack solace and those kinds of places. And I like that kind of work. When you come in face to face with the reality of, like the pain that is caused, that is that's a really tough space, I think, to inhabit. And like my my view or my kind of role allows me to be really optimistic. But I would never I would never see that that has to be the stance that other people take. I think there's lots of different roles. And prevention isn't the only kind of work that can be done. I think there's also like a lot of work that has to be done around protecting people and around restorative work and like how you rehabilitate people who have who have done violence or have been violent. But often, like I grew up in church and there was a phrase that we grew up with which was that hurt people, hurt people. And I think that's so true. I think that a lot of the stuff that we see manifest in men or in older boys is because they have been victims of that kind of stuff when they were younger. I mean, when you grow up playing sports and your coaches are screaming at you, absolutely berating you and you're like eight years old and you're like, oh, my gosh. And obviously you develop ways of dealing with that or ways of shutting off emotions so that you don't have to face that kind of pain. And it's just it's just unhealthy. But I think we can undo a lot of that work. I think it just takes a lot of time to undo it. So there's a lot of work to do.

Gemma Styles [00:37:36] I think I was talking about about language leads us nicely into the Q&A section. And our first question today is from Kiera, who says, Ocean Vong spoke about words used to encourage boys in their achievements and how they relate to aggression, e.g., you're killing it, you're making a killing, etc.. I want to know how much societal norms and the way we address men play a role in encouraging toxic masculinity. And what can we do to shift the focus from

Ben Hurst [00:38:03] a good question? Yeah, I would add, you know, what I would say is I would say the role that that language plays is huge. And I think often in a lot of ways that we don't realise that that was a really good example of that. Oh, you're killing me and. And I think it does. I don't think that those things are explicit, I don't think it's OK because we say that now boys will be violent. But I think it adds to this kind of wider picture that we have in society of what the norms are and what things are, what types of behaviour expected from what types of people. And so I think I think we've got a lot of a lot of work to do. And that's not my area of expertise. Like, I'm not somebody who analyses the kind of language that we use and tries to deconstruct it. But I do think that's an important part of this process. And I guess. One thing that we can all do is be more aware of what type of language we use like earlier in the podcast. And this isn't about masculinity, this is about ableism. But like I said, that's lame. And as soon as I said it, I was like, oh, that's why did I say that? Like, why is that still a part of my vocabulary? And it's not necessarily like I have similar conversations with boys when they talk about things being gay. And it's not like a moment of like you're not allowed to say that, but it's just like what does that where does that come from and why do we see it? And what are we trying to communicate when we say that thing? What value are we attach into a certain identity or to a certain behaviour? So if we always attach value and success to the idea of Kaelyn, then we grow up in a world where, like Kaelyn, obviously people aren't walking down the road saying, yeah, let's all kill each other. But then when we do see things like when we when we play games and when we when we encourage people to enrol in the army and that kind of stuff, we have a common understanding of what happens there. And we kind of just excuse it as a society. And I think, again, like the across the board, not just in regards to masculinity, but I think all of us probably need to do a lot more work of understanding the things that we say and and understanding the impact that they have, whether we noticed that impact or not. So whether like people start crying because we use certain words around them or not, the impact of the word, even in just what it normalises in our own minds becomes really important. I think we've yeah, we've definitely analysed a lot more.

Gemma Styles [00:40:34] Yeah. So true. And it's even that example that you gave of people being like, oh, that's gay or something like that is something that like when I was a school, that was just something that you said. And if anyone ever mentioned like so

Ben Hurst [00:40:46] normal,

Gemma Styles [00:40:47] if anyone ever mentioned that as being weird, it was kind of. Yeah but that's not what I mean.

Ben Hurst [00:40:51] Yeah, I'm definitely not homophobic. Know.

Gemma Styles [00:40:55] Yeah, exactly. Yeah. But like is the way that things shift as a society is like it's wild really because like now you, you just don't say. And at the time if you thought about that you were like yeah but that's not what I meant. But now we know we have a lot more conversations now about, you know, how the impact is more important than your intention and that we just have to train out of these things. And I think is one of those things that you just have to actually catch yourself doing and practise not doing it. And it's like, yeah, I think yeah. Like carers question. It's like if you're more aware of this language and you can kind of challenge it when it comes up, then gradually, hopefully we can just sort of shift away from it.

Ben Hurst [00:41:34] But yeah, definitely.

Gemma Styles [00:41:37] Next question is from an anonymous listener who says, how do you think we could help educate children who've grown up around toxic masculinity and gender inequality in their families and who don't see a problem with it?

Ben Hurst [00:41:49] I would say ask a lot of questions. The reason I say ask questions is because I think I think one thing that we we tend to do as a society is so I'm speaking about it specifically and lack a UK context and lack being in the is are we in the Northern Hemisphere. Yeah. Like being the part of the global north. We have almost like this kind of like imperialistic colonial mindset because I think something I'm right and the other person is wrong and I it's my job to then educate the other person. And I think in some cases that's right. In a lot of cases it's really risky and quite dangerous. And I think one thing that is important is positioning yourself not as the expert on a topic, but as somebody who's interested in who wants to learn. And I think if you if you're talking to kids like kids are so interesting because they don't have filters, so they don't they don't think things through and then think, oh, I shouldn't say that thing. They just say what's on their mind. And if there's a kid who's grown up in a certain environment and they therefore think a bunch of things and you ask them why they think that or where that comes from or what they think the impact of that thing is, first of all, the likelihood is, like I said earlier, kids will just change their mind. They'll just be like, oh, yeah, no, I don't think that anymore. That that was stupid. I can't believe I thought that. But also, you might learn something, do you not? I mean, like you might be like, oh my gosh, I'd never considered that before. And now I have a much better understanding of like why kids who grow up in certain environments think in certain ways. And I think the other part of that question is like it has to become part of education. It has to become part of our syllabuses. Like these kind of conversations have to become much more commonplace in schools that loads of kids spend more time in school than they spend with their families. And I think there's there's a bigger role that society plays in educating kids and what we choose to educate kids about and how we choose to educate them, even that didactic methods of education and telling kids the right answers and they have to memorise them to pass an exam as opposed to like this is really interesting. What do you think about. But then I think the other part of that is that not all of us are teachers and all of us are educators. But I think you can be inquisitive and you can ask questions and you'll probably be really surprised by the responses or the kids will realise that what they think doesn't really make sense and then just change their mind.

Gemma Styles [00:44:11] That is good advice. Yeah, we definitely, definitely had a good few questions and from teachers, actually, which I think we've kind of Covid where you talk about, you know, like interventions when kids are young and like the way the the way that you can talk to them I think is. Yeah. I mean, I think that's really good advisors. If they can't if they can't kind of back up and realise, like, why something that they've heard on TV, they realise it doesn't make any sense. I guess then them coming to that conclusion by themselves is probably going to stick longer than it is just you telling them something. Right.

Ben Hurst [00:44:40] Right. And you know, and it's so funny as well, because when you flip it on kids, they hate it. Like, you know, kids always ask why, but why? Why, though, why? If you do that to a kid, they'll be like. I don't really know. I don't actually know why. I've just realised I don't know why, but I think that's a really, really fun space to be in with anyone. Like a space where both of us lot, we don't know the answer. And we can now create like a new way of understanding this thing. And I think if you can get into that space with kids like you once you have a lot of fun and to like, they will grow a lot in that space in terms of their understanding of a topic, but to how they learn to understand things in general, which is really nice.

Gemma Styles [00:45:22] Yeah, that is nice. Okay, last question is from Kelly, who says, Recently I've noticed more and more men or young boys embracing themselves and expressing themselves through their clothes. So I think meaning is less traditional, sort of masculine dressing, but still facing the backlash for doing so many sitting by. What do you feel is the best approach to show someone your support without feeling like you're being too much?

Ben Hurst [00:45:50] This is a really interesting question, and I think if I think about my own journey with this, with being part of black communities where there are individuals who choose to, like, really drastically deviate from the norms. Yeah. So kids who choose to or adults who choose to dress outside of their gender, for example, like, is a really good one. I think I went through a long period of time of being like any time somebody does something, I have to be the person who really supports them. And I like that's my role. I have to be like, yeah, yes, you say yes. But I think actually what is really valuable is just being yourself and just being honest, because sometimes, like I think especially with kids, there are times when kids wear things and they don't look good, they're learning how to style. And I think there's a lot of value in being real about whatever it is that people are choosing to do. I think you've got to do that piece of work first about your own prejudices and what biases you hold and all of that kind of stuff about like gender norms and what you think is OK and all of that kind of stuff. And once you've done that and you find yourself in a space where you're around people who are doing stuff, just keep it real with them, do you not? I mean, if you like something that they're wearing, but I really like that thing, and if you don't like it, you don't need to comment on it. But I think that helps people to feel like what they're doing is normal as opposed to what they're doing is radical. Yeah. And it's it's a hard it's a hard line to toe. Right. Because some people need that kind of radical encouragement and they need to feel like they are accepted and they are acknowledged. And what they're doing is like seen and recognise and other people, just as other people are not doing that to make a statement. They're just doing it to express themselves or they're just doing it because that's what they want to do. And so in those kinds of situations, it doesn't have to be that fake and and that over the top. But you can just you've got to make a judgement on what a person might need from you in a moment. And sometimes you get it wrong. And if you get it wrong, like you apologise, you show that you acknowledge what you did and give a real apology and commit to not doing that thing again while you're around that person and keep it moving. But I think, yeah, it doesn't it doesn't have to be always like bringing up the choir and clapping and singing songs for people that sometimes people just want to wear what they want to wear and go about their day. So the other day a good example was like I was wearing some polls. I just recently learnt to string pearls. And I'm not somebody who dresses outside of my gender norm too much. But like I grew up with my mom really liking jewellery. So I really like jewellery and my mom does like loads of little jewellery making courses. So I learn loads of stuff from my mom about how to like do stuff. And so I was wearing some polls that my mom was like, why are you wearing those? And you could just leave me alone if you don't like them. Like, I don't I don't know your opinion about anything else I do that you don't like. You have to comment on this is fine. But if you do like them, like some of my sisters, I've seen them. That's so nice. Can you make me one? Like, where did you get it from there? And that's like a nice little just a nice little line to toe I think is just be normal about it. And just like if you like something to tell someone you like it if you don't keep your mouth shut. And I think that's a cool way to go about it.

Gemma Styles [00:49:03] Good advice for life. Yeah. If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter at Covid. Influence G.S. and email me good influence pod at Gmail dot com. So before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest on the podcast, and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please recommend us something to read, something to listen to and something to watch

Ben Hurst [00:49:34] or so good. Yes, I can I can recommend you things to read and listen to. And what I think the first thing is, I'm not a big reader and that's really not how I take information in. And I do listen to the occasional audiobook and one that I've listened to the. Recently, that was really good was Laura Bates's men who hate women, which I think is like a really good exploration of the Insull culture, the manosphere, men's rights activism, but I think also gives like a really good basis and framework for understanding masculinity. So I'd say that's a really a really cool book to read. JJ Paula has a really good book called Mask Off, which is also is much smaller and that breaks down masculinity in lack culturally relevant ways, which is really cool. And then I'd say, listen to if you watch TED talks or listen to Ted talks, I listen to them sometimes like as kind of podcast because they like. Really sure. And I used to like listen to really long podcasts. But now because we don't go anywhere because of Covid, like, I just I just like to listen to a podcast that means. So there's there's a really good one by Tony Paracord accoutrement which is like a Yeah. One of the best podcasts I think, or one of the best TED talks I've ever heard. And then I mentioned one earlier as well by Jackson Katz, which is another really good short TED talk that you can listen to is about 10 minutes or 15 minutes long. And then for watching, I would say depends on who you are and what kind of like TV you enjoy watching. The thing that I struggle with is that I don't really like watching stuff about or reading stuff or listening to stuff about what I do for work, because I feel like then my whole life is consumed by work. So I try to avoid. But one film I've seen that's really good is called The Mosque You Live in, which I think I don't I'm not sure if you can get it on Netflix, but I've got it on iTunes and I know you can buy it on Amazon. And so that's a really good film that really, really breaks down. Masculinity, goes into loads of different areas and it just looks at that MOS that men put on and kind of live behind that that I guess they call masculinity, which is really cool. And there's a really good episode of The New Twilight Zone. So Jordan Peele. Have you seen this? The Twilight Zone. The new.

Gemma Styles [00:51:55] No, I haven't. I remember saying I thought it was coming out and I haven't watched it. Yeah. And you literally thought I was like, oh, my God, I never watched that.

Ben Hurst [00:52:03] Yeah, that is good watching. It's really, really good watching. But there's an episode called No Women in Season one I think is like episode eight or nine. And it's like a really good commentary on masculinity. If you if you're a woman who's listening and you want to have conversations about masculinity, you have guys in your life whether that's like brothers or partners or parents or whatever, and they just don't want to talk about. Watch that episode of The Twilight Zone with them, because it's like The Twilight Zone is really trippy anyway. But it's a really good social commentary on masculinity that opens up lots of really good conversations, but it's still really, really entertaining. So I'd say that's a good a good episode to watch of The Twilight Zone.

Gemma Styles [00:52:45] Thank you for listening and thank you again for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're currently listening. And if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating under review as well. Your views make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week.