S01E02 Transcript: Michelle Elman on Boundaries

Please note: Good Influence is produced for audio and designed to be heard. If you are able to, please listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human proofing, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. You can find links to audio versions of all episodes here.

intro

[music]

Gemma Styles: Hello, I’m Gemma and welcome to Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest, who will help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answer some of your questions. This week we're talking about boundaries: what they are, how they can help us and how social media has helped us spotlight our need for them. Joining me this week is Michelle Elman. Michelle is a Board Certified life coach, author and podcaster. You may know her better by her online handle @scarrednotscared. She's spoken extensively online about body positivity and representation as well as in her first book, Am I Ugly?, in which she explores her own journey from childhood illnesses and surgeries to a place of body confidence and acceptance. Her second book, The Joy of Being Selfish, is out in 2021, and tackles the subject of boundaries, something she often gives advice about in her weekly Instagram Q&As.

[music continues under conversation]

Michelle Elman: Really exciting, you've got a new podcast!

Gemma Styles: I'm really excited about it. But I get so nervous doing new things. But then I keep seeing things online about it over and over again, posts keep popping up about like, nobody's really good at something when they start doing it. You just need to do it. And then you get better.

Michelle Elman: Honestly, watch my first YouTube videos or my TikToks. And like, even all my friends were laughing at me, they were like, you're so cringe. And I was like, just give me a year, I'll be fine.

[music ends]

discussion

Gemma Styles: So before we get into talking about specifics, can you explain to us a bit about what life coaching is? And how did you get into coaching?

Michelle Elman: Yeah, definitely. So when I got into it five years ago, no one really understood what the word coach meant and they actually thought it was like a sports coach rather than an area of personal development. And the best way to describe it is that life coaches are generally more holistic, whereas everything like a psychologist or psychotherapist, that's very traditional psychology. And as much as I started in that field, well, that was my intention. And that was my path. I did a BSc in Psychology and was planning to become a psychologist, I just found that there were certain limitations in the way that they practice where they're very governed. And so they have a practising body called the BPS, and there are only certain ways you can do it. And it was things like, for example, that the whole principle in a psychologist session is- there are jokes about it, how a psychologist’s face is not meant to react. And I always found that really strange, because I was like, that's so disconcerting when you're talking. And the person in front of you is not reacting at all. And I understand that’s so that you don't like, gasp out of shock when they say that they've had depression or something like that. But it's also not human. And so there were a few things while I was studying, especially in my third year of my psychology degree, where I just didn't agree with the way they were like the, what we call the model of the world, or the point of view that they were teaching from. And so I walked into my degree, absolutely loving psychology and walked out being like, I don't agree with this, like, I don't agree with how this has been taught, there must be another way to help people. And that wasn't as close minded. And I'm going to say that with a caveat, because traditional psychology helps so many people. But I also believe that there should be options for different kinds of people, all humans are so varied. And if it helps you, that's wonderful. If talking therapy is your thing, great. If CBT is your thing, go ahead. But then life coaching is this beautiful other option for people who prefer to be more future focused. So that's one other difference, is that you don't necessarily go to a life coach because you have a problem or your life is broken, although I don't think anyone goes because they're broken, I don't believe people can break. And so with psychologists, they tend to go to your past a lot more. Whereas a life coach will ask How do you want your life to be and that's what we're going to work towards. And so the only problems that come up in your life are things that are obstructing the future that you want, rather than going into your past and figuring it out that way, if that makes sense.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, if you think you've already got things that you want to fix, then maybe more traditional therapy, whereas if things are kind of okay, but you just want help moving forwards, then maybe life coaching might be the one.

Michelle Elman: Yeah, and it's also not so clear cut, and it's why it's hard to describe because a lot of traditional psychologists will get training in the things I'm trained in. So it's called neuro linguistic programming. I'm trained in a few other things like timeline therapy, which are more holistic approaches, but traditional psychologists are now really open to those models and life coaches sometimes have a background in traditional psychology as well. So it's not that clear cut, but I think the shift for me personally and why I chose to be a life coach was in third year, I actually ended up going to a therapist for the first time, a psychologist for the first time. And it was really helpful for four months, and I couldn't have got to the place I was without those four months. But after four months, I felt like it was limited in their approach. So I had PTSD, post traumatic stress disorder. And I remember saying to the psychologist, okay, so what do we do now? Like, how do I move on? Like, I can't, I can't live like this every day. And she was like, you don't move on, you just learn how to manage it. And I'm just, I'm not that kind of person. And I was like, I was happy three months ago, how do I go back to happy? Now with five years of experience? I'm like, happy doesn't exist, happy is a temporary emotion. Back then I was like, No, I was normal three months ago, I must be able to go back to normal. But that all comes up in any personal development journey. I think there's always the questioning of like, what's normal? I want to go back to me, but what is me? And Will I lose me if I start working on myself? And all of those fears are in whichever approach you take.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, for sure. I mean, it's definitely if you're, if you're starting to speak to anyone really about how your brains working, I feel like it can always be a bit of a hurdle. And so you were saying that psychologists or therapists or registered with a particular body? Is there anything similar for life coaches? So if there's someone listening who thinks, I feel like I might like to give this life coaching thing a try… Is there some qualification they should be looking for? Or what would you kind of advise they look for?

Michelle Elman: So I'm accredited by five boards, but the difference between life coaches and psychologists is that you don't have to be and so that's also a danger within that, it comes with a pro comes with a con. So the pro is that you have more freedom in the way that you practice. And the con is that people aren't monitored, people aren't monitored at all. And so it's a lot riskier. The qualifications that, or the mindset that I work from, is called neuro linguistic programming. And so that's what I'm trained in. I'm trained as a master practitioner of neuro linguistic programming. I'm also a master timeline therapist. So that's a different model as well. And then I'm also a master hypnotherapist. So those are the qualifications I have. And I also have a few other ones like provocative therapy and NLP coaching. But that's how I got into it was, I got trained in those models and life coaches, essentially the umbrella term you use in using all of that, but people get trained in those things for like sales and marketing. So it's not necessarily the programme I did was very therapy based. But those techniques can be used in any area of any area of your life.

Gemma Styles: So I guess just ask some questions before you maybe put too much stock in someone? If you ask someone, you know, what are your qualifications, they should at least be able to discuss it with you. Rather than you end up with a Jeremy from Peep Show situation [laughing] who calls himself a life coach, with no qualifications at all!

Michelle Elman: I feel like the main thing is you first of all, check that they've had training, like that's the main thing. So even if they're not accredited by anything, if they've done courses- and they should be always keeping on top of their courses. So it's not like you do it when you start and then you stop learning. And then the other thing is rapport. So being able to get on with the person because ultimately, there are a billion people in the world, from a human to human level, you're not necessarily going to get on with that person, whether it's a life coach or psychologist. And so therefore, if, if that's not gelling, straightaway, don't go like oh, life coaching is rubbish, or psychology is rubbish. Or, like psychiatry is rubbish. It might be that one person. And so it is that case of like shopping around, essentially. And it's frustrating, because you don't want to have to keep regurgitating your life story. But it's so worth it to find the right match. And if that means you have to do a first session three or four times and have to repeat that, in the long run. It's worth it. I mean, I'm with my life coach for what, it's been six years I've been with my life coach, whereas I tried maybe four or five before her, and I just couldn't, like we'd get to the third session. And I was like, you're limiting my goals, like, how is it working that way. And so then I would find a new life coach, but eventually, once I found the right person, you just stick with them, and then it's worth it.

Gemma Styles: So your new book is called The Joy of Being Selfish: why you need boundaries and how to set them. I'm not going to ask you to give it all away, because it's not out yet. But what kind of things do you discuss in the book?

Michelle Elman: So I fell in love with boundaries. Essentially, when I first started going to my life coach, that was probably the main thing she was teaching me and of everything she's taught me that last six years, boundaries was the thing that changed my life. And at first it was like learning a whole new language like I remember I would go there with a situation whether it's a friend or someone I was dating and being like, how do I say this? Can I say this? And she would have to genuinely construct the text for me. So this whole book is about how to set boundaries. And as a simple explanation, what a boundary is, is that it's the difference between me and you. It's the line between us, it's the separation between us. And it's how you can treat me and how I can treat you. And it's what we allow, in terms of treatment of each other. And so when you don't have a boundary, you become what's called enmeshed where you don't know the difference between each other. So an example of that is like those, those couples who have the same Facebook page, or the couple who you tell your best friend about something really personal to you. And then two minutes later, you found out their boyfriend knows. And it's like, I didn't tell your boyfriend, I told you, that's a boundary being crossed. But they see themselves as the same person because there are no boundaries between them. And it sounds, I think, some people, there are so many misconceptions around boundaries, because it's in, especially in the last year, it's a word being used so often, but there's not a lot of understanding and education around it. So then people say, so for example, if I use that example of the couple I just mentioned, they'll be like, but I want to be close to my boyfriend, I want to be close to my girlfriend. Like if we have a boundary between us, then then that's like putting a wall up. And I'm like, no walls and boundaries are different, walls are forcing people out. That's like slamming the door in someone's face. And a boundary is you safely being able to be intimate with each other while still maintaining your individualism and maintaining your separation, because you're still two separate humans. And that's the important part. And so that's mainly what the books about. So it's how to set boundaries, literally giving you the language, which is the lexicon around how to stand up for yourself, is not really out there. And also, why you deserve to set boundaries, which, especially with women, I find is the hardest part because they either feel guilty after they set a boundary, or they don't set it in the first place because they have a fear of being disliked.

Gemma Styles: I think that's the interesting thing I thought about the title of the book, which is The Joy of Being Selfish. When I hear the word selfish, you think selfishness is obviously seen as quite a negative trait. But in this kind of situation where people do need help, you know, not necessarily help standing up for themselves, but you know, need to be able to set those boundaries. Do you think selfishness needs to almost be reframed as a good thing? Or can be a good thing?

Michelle Elman: Yeah. So one of the things I talked about in the book is the fact that, like the idea of selfish, so it's, it's a few things, it's twofold. I guess, there are certain responses anytime someone sets a boundary, and it's You’re mean, you're a bully, you're selfish or unforgiving. Those are such common words being used. So it's almost like reclaiming a word that is used against people who set boundaries. But then the second side of it is that we all talk about self care. And we talk about self love. But then, because of the patriarchal society we live in, women are taught to be givers, to put everyone else first, to be selfless. So how are you meant to self care and self love when you have no time for yourself? And one of the things I end up saying in the book is, like, if by the time you've done everything for everyone else, when is there time for you? So yes, we can hypothetically get on board with the idea of self love. But actually, in order to create the time for it, you need boundaries. So I see boundaries as the practical side of self love. Whereas, like, when it's, I guess self love has such a wishy washy concept to it, that people can agree with it. And it's really easy. It's when it's okay, but you need to set boundaries in order to get self love. They're like, Oh, wait, no, that's too much. And I'm like, yeah, cuz that's the hard part. I'm sorry, but you don't grow in any area of life without going through the hard part. And so that's why there's that pushback where people are called selfish, but also, selfish is also the method in how to set boundaries. So it's a seven step process, the words that the acronym is that the word like happens to spell selfish, so called the selfish method, and it's embracing the fact that you do need to put yourself first, you have to put yourself on the top of your priority list. And if you're not okay with the word selfish, that's fine. But you do have to put yourself higher on your priority list and prioritise the self more so in order to be able to set boundaries.

Gemma Styles: I think it's interesting the way you describe it in terms of you know, we're so happy now with the term self care, yeah, but not happy with the term selfish. I think, you know, so much of the self care conversation now is turned into bubble baths, you know, and face masks without any of the kind of thought behind it. So that makes a lot of sense to me in terms of, you know, selfishness being a little bit of self kindness, just making the time for you and putting yourself first.

Michelle Elman: Also, if you flip it the opposite of selfish is selfless, right, and selfless people in our society are really praised. Because it's like, Oh, you're so giving, you're so wonderful. If you actually know someone who is that selfless, you know that it's not coming from a place of confidence or being good or being a good human, a lot of the time, it's coming from a place of insecurity. And because they don't feel good enough in themselves, that they feel like if they pour out every part of themselves, and offer that to the world, then maybe they'll be loved in return. So as much as they're doing it from a place, they're not really doing it from a selfless place, they're actually doing it for them, even though they aren't aware of it. And it's that thing of, you'll hear a lot of people where, when they first get into jobs, they're like, I just want to help the world. And I'm always like, no help yourself first. And if you help yourself, you are helping the world. Because if you take care of yourself, you take you off of your friends and families list you as something they need to take care of, because you're doing the job yourself.

Gemma Styles: So kind of like an extended version of the you know, put your own seatbelt on before you help someone else kind of thing.

Michelle Elman: Right, exactly.

Gemma Styles: So communicating these kind of messages through a whole book, and doing it in snippets on social media, which is which you do a lot of right, must be quite a different experience. How do you find it using Instagram to give coaching advice?

Michelle Elman: So I think I started giving advice even before boundaries became my main conversation, I guess. And I found that there was a limitation in life coaching in that I just felt like I wasn't reaching enough people, and that there were these conversations I wanted to have. And so that's why I started giving out coaching advice, because I also got frustrated that life coaching isn't accessible. And nor is therapy. Like financially, it's not accessible. And people want to change their lives, they just don't have the money to do so. And it shouldn't be money that's the obstacle. So I really wanted to start making my own life coaching more accessible. But then I had this guilt that I had paying clients, and then I was giving up the information for free. And so that's kind of what I leaned into the being an influencer for lack of a better word, and was like, why don't I just fully do this, I have this opportunity that most life coaches don't have. And I can then make all my content available. And I don't have to be like, Oh, sorry, I can't say that. Because like otherwise, that my paying clients are going to get annoyed because I do that in a session with them. And now I'm doing it for free online. And so that's, that's what made the difference. I think there are huge differences in terms of the practicality of life coaching. So I try to say that what I'm doing online is not really life coaching, it's more advice than life coaching. Because it's a different process. When you're sitting one on one with a person, we are like deep diving into your life, we're talking to your inner child, they have their eyes closed majority of the time, because it's like going into your body and me being there with them and guiding them through talking to themselves more compassionately and things like that. And obviously I can tailor make the the content, I'm providing an accession to the actual specific context. Whereas I think, especially on social media, I have to be a bit more black and white. An example I use is like when it comes to getting back with an ex, I will tend to err on the side of saying, if it's on social media, I will be like, no bad idea. Don't do it. If it's in a life coaching session, Okay, let's take your actual context, and see whether this is the right situation.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I guess it must be quite different is it? Do you still find it as rewarding kind of being able to give advice, even when you have to sort of condense it down into an Instagram story, for example?

Michelle Elman: I think it's rewarding in different ways. I think the life coaching was more emotionally draining. And I don't have to take onboard as much from the people who are receiving the coaching when I'm doing it via social media. The what, like I don't get as much feedback. That's another thing that whereas in the session, I get feedback, not just from what the client says, but also from their body language. Like I know if I'm on the right track was, especially unlike my Q&A Mondays, I'm throwing it out there off my gut and my instinct. I don't know if that other person is reading and thinking, That makes no sense. And to be fair, it could do, because I don't know you and I don't know your specific situation. So I'm giving the best advice I can based on the information you've given me, but I don't know the full story.

Gemma Styles: Do you get messages back from people, though, when you've kind of answered their questions in your Q&A? And do you manage to kind of still have those connections with people like can they get back to you and say, Oh, that really helped. Thanks. Or Well, actually that wasn't quite right.

Michelle Elman: Yeah. And the main thing that I get now is, Oh, there was one thing you wrote in a caption like a week ago, and then I went and set a boundary on it, and this is how it went. I'll get a long paragraph about it, which is always really nice. And at the moment, I just started a new podcast and in the podcast, they can send voice notes in and I've started getting voice notes back there. Like I told my friend everything that you said, this is how it worked out, which has been so nice because it's such a difference getting it over voice note for some reason, like when someone replies like telling you three minutes, that seems more personal than even if you've written like five paragraphs, in an email or in a DM.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think sometimes being able to- I mean, talking like this, rather than, you know, not that this is an interview per se, but kind of doing a written interview, here you just get a bit more back and forth. The way people talk is so much more flowy.

Michelle Elman: But I also feel like it's a real human, like, I don't know, do you ever find that when you look at your page, you're like, I understand I have so many followers, but they don't feel real until you bump into someone in the street, or you get like a voice note or you talk to someone like in person? It's why I used to love doing events, before the pandemic. It's like, oh, there are actually people. Like that's not just the number that's a real human.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, totally. I do. I think that on Instagram and stuff all the time, actually. And sometimes even about myself, because I feel like, you know, there'll be people who I follow. And sometimes it kind of pops into your head and you're like, looking at their page and thinking, I wonder like, what they're really like as a person. And I wonder if their page is like an actual representation of them? Like, would I be surprised if I met them? And then I think, I wonder if people would be surprised at me like, do I come across like I actually am or not?

Michelle Elman: You're quite close to how you come across on your page. Like, I feel like there's always gonna be a slight difference. Because even with me, I'm like, I try to come across as accurately as possible. But you can't, like, it's always going to be like 60, 70%.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, of course. I mean, social media, as much as it does connect you to people. It also I guess, a kind of technological boundary. But it is yeah, a space in between two people, you're never going to be you know, fully fully immersed.

Michelle Elman: Oh, yeah. Online is what probably taught me boundaries the most, but also was why I needed boundaries the most. Because if you don't have boundaries, and you can come in as an influencer, which is why I sound like such an old person- but I'm always really wary when an influencer is so young. And because you don't naturally have boundaries growing up. Well, some people do. But if you weren't taught it in childhood, which the majority of us weren't, then you're especially around like 18, 19. If I think about how many boundaries I had when I was 18, no, and then you're going into an online space, which has the potential of being dangerous. And even if that's just, I don't know whether you get this in your DMs, but like emotional dumps, where people are like, they don't have anyone to talk to, and they've just put their whole life story. If you didn't have boundaries, and you responded to that, as much as it seems really kind, you are actually not helping that person because that person is in a really vulnerable place, and then they're going to start leaning on you. And if you don't have the capabilities to actually support them. But also no one can over DMs, like you unless you're in the same place, unless you're in the same country in the same city, and actually are qualified to, then even if you just reply with a like, Oh, I'm so sorry, what you're going through. That's like an online boundary, which I feel like creates a lot of unsafe situations and unsafe conversations, especially if the person's young that they're talking to. And so I think definitely online, it's not even just the boundaries around how you talk to someone on social media, but it's also the time you spend on social media. That's something I've been working on. For the last year, every time you get to a good place, I find you slip back because it is just you're working against the natural addictiveness of the device and the platform.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. I mean, you said before that boundaries are something that's talked about more often now. And I feel like I've definitely heard the term used a lot more like in the past, I don't know, year to 18 months or so maybe. Do you think part of that is because of social media and how sort of dependent we've become on it, and everyone is so accessible to each other now? And I think I do see a lot of people talking about how they get the sort of feeling of being quite burnt out with social media, because, you know, people could be messaging you 24 hours a day. If you feel like you have to be replying to them 24 hours a day, or if you, I see people and you know, they didn't post Instagram Stories yesterday, and they come back online saying I'm so sorry I didn't post any stories yesterday. To me, I always think like, Why? Why are you sorry? You could be doing whatever you want with your day.

Michelle Elman: [laughing] I think Who cares? Like it's this almost slightly- I always think you're the most conscious person of yourself. And so you're really concerned about like, losing your audience or that your audience is going to hate you if you don't show up enough. But again, if you return to yourself and ask yourself how you feel, how does it make you feel? Being off social media for a day, and prioritising your needs, that you need to break over your followers needing content, which again, I guess could be called selfish, then that's more important, but I think it's technology in general. So it's not just social media. It's the fact that- so one of the chapters in the book is about access, because we all have so much access to each other in a way that we never had before. And I think the reason why there was this resurgence of the word boundaries, because it definitely existed before is, well, it's twofold. One is the fact that all psychology terms have been started to use very like colloquially like gaslighting, everyone using that term, do you really know what it means? Maybe. Like everyone's using that, or red flags, or toxic date, everyone's toxic at the moment. And I'm like, you don't know what it means. And also, because I really don't agree with toxic people, I agree with toxic dynamics, because I believe that I could be toxic with one person and not toxic with another. But that doesn't make me a toxic human. That means that we like, together our interaction or dynamic is not healthy. And all of those words are starting to be thrown around. And the second thing is the fact that there's so much access in terms of looking at the workplace, for example, when you left, when my dad left the office, no one contacted him, when I was younger. Whereas now when I leave the office, I mean, do I leave the office ever? Like if I get a text at 10 o'clock at night, there were points in my career where I was replying to it. Or if someone sent me a, I mean, I've had producers call me on a Saturday and have no issue, no apology around it. But then at the same time, I'm like, I could sit there and get annoyed and be like, why are they calling me on a Saturday? I say, Why did I pick up? And so that's my boundary. So if I have not picked up the phone, then it wouldn't have bothered me. But I picked up the phone. And so I need to create better work boundaries around when you have access to me, when my boss has access to me, when my colleagues have access to me. But also in terms of events, for every No that you say, you are saying Yes to something else. But people don't think of it that way. And so we don't dictate our calendars anymore. We look at our diaries, and we go, do we have a free evening, okay, yes, I'm free. But you never go, do I want to go? And so it's setting boundaries around your calendar, it's setting boundaries in the workplace. It's setting boundaries around exes, because they're also- if I go back to my teenage years, when I ended a relationship, there was no way to contact each other anymore. Like other than odd phone number, but now you have each other on social media, you have each other, there are so many ways to keep tabs on someone who used to be in a relationship with. So again, that's access, like I don't believe my ex deserves access to me. And and so it's every element of life.

Gemma Styles: Have you found that’s something that's come up a lot more of this year? I mean, 2020 obviously, we all know I’m talking about it, the pandemic here, a lot more people have been working from home. Do you think that's had a knock on effect, have people been having more problems? Because I know that definitely even friends of mine who've been working from home, have ended up working much longer hours. Because it's not just a question of being able to leave the office. It's almost kind of, I don't know, in some cases, sort of having to try and prove to people at work that you're still working by being available all the time.

Michelle Elman: But we have the same culture, there’s a phrase- I don't know it because I don't work in an office. But there's a phrase my office friends use, where like you sit at your desk for the sake of it like to prove that you're busy. So it's the same in office culture. Yeah, only difference is, there's no physical boundary between where you work and where you sleep. And then there's also no, there's the thing of if someone didn't reply to a text before, you'd think they're out. Whereas there now you're like, Well, I know you're not out. I know you're sitting at home. So yeah. It's that thing of I know, you're free, therefore, I should be able to contact you. And I think the other thing, because I've been working from home for five years, the first few years was so hard and as soon as they said lockdown I was like, the world is going to really struggle with this, because they don't realise how much time they waste in an office. They don't realise the amount of time they waste chatting to their colleagues at the watercooler or like kitchen out of it. I've never worked at the office, but something like that or like, going out to smoke or whatnot. All of that lunch hour, all of that. When you're at home, you don't have that and so you actually work way more productively. What you get done in our home is usually almost double what you get done in an office. And so therefore, that's why you're burning out because you're actually doing so much work than before. But also you're not finishing at that, like at a time, as you said, you're not working at the office. And, and so that's- both of those things are impacting people because there's no switch off point. And because we have our phones, people can call us at any time, people can contact us at any time. So you need to be able to say, like, I'll get back to you on Monday, which can be really scary in, especially in this climate where people are losing their jobs all the time. And you're worried that if you said no, that means you could lose your job. But yes, the alternative is you're going to burn out, and I burnt out towards the end of 2019. That's why I prioritise online boundaries so much more this year. And when you burn out, you are flat out for like, for me, it was like two weeks, three weeks, and you literally cannot do anything. And I just kept thinking, why did I wait until I had a breakdown to take a break? Like, I just needed to push myself to that point. And it's not a loving thing to do. And it's not a selfless thing to do that, it's just bad boundaries.

[music]

Q&A

Gemma Styles: Every week, I'll be asking my guest some of your questions. And the first one comes in from Amy…

What are the best ways to maintain work life balance, or try to relax from work, when you're working and living in the same small space?

Michelle Elman: So I think there are things you can do on technology that I've started using. So I started to use airplane mode a lot. So I've been turning it actually like, off, you cannot reach me and and also do not disturb. I've been removing notifications so that when these work intrusions come in, they're not automatic, I'm not seeing them first of all as quickly, and then I'm not acting on them. But also having that conversation with those people in your workplace where, like I even said it to my own agent at the beginning of the year, I was like, I'm working on my online boundaries. I realised nothing I do in my career is important or urgent. No matter how important or urgent they think they are, we are not doing brain surgery, everything will be fine. We do not need to be replying this quickly. It is absolutely fine. Everyone will survive. And I said that because it's like, I'm letting you know, you're not going to be getting an instant reply anymore. And things like that, where you have to have that conversation and I get it. It's awkward. It's hard. It's difficult. You don't want to be- what I think the main thing is, women are perceived as being difficult or offputting or too demanding. It's not, it's self preservation, it's taking care of yourself. And so that's the one the main way you get work life balance, but also realising that every time you pick up your phone to do a work email, or every time you pick up a work call out of hours, you are actually taking something away from whatever you are doing in that moment. It is an active transition. It's not like, and I think sometimes we think oh, well, I'm just watching TV, I might as well pick it up. No, watching TV is actually a valid use of time. Just because it isn't productive, like productive in the conventional sense, doesn't mean it's not important. And I think we need to stop this hierarchy of being busy or being productive is more important use of our time than relaxation time. Because it's part of this over glorification of being busy that this society thrives on. And we need to realise that alone time, relaxation, time, downtime, whatever you want to call it, is- sleep is, just as important as your productive hours. And just because you want to use it in a more chilled fashion doesn't mean it's it's a waste of time or it's not necessary or it can be transferred it can be replaced by whatever urgent demand someone else has.

Gemma Styles: Absolutely. Leading on from that, our next question is from Krystal and she asks…

How do you be the protagonist of your own life?

Gemma Styles: … which to sort of to explain a little bit more, kind of, how to be centering your own happiness.

Michelle Elman: There's a TikTok trend at the moment which is like, you need to romanticise your life. And I think it's by becoming more selfish. I don't know how I feel about being the protagonist in your own life, because I think it's actually really important to realise that you are also the villain in someone else's story half the time and No One No One No One is that perfect person and, and so yes, your life should revolve around you in that sense. But like, are you going to be the good character in everyone else's life? Probably not. And so, in your life, how you centre things more on you is by asking yourself about like- it's really cliche and a really simple answer but you ask yourself how you feel, which I know sounds really simple. But if you think about it from the perspective of let's say someone's cancelling, you don't want to go, your friend invites you to the pub, you don't want to go- maybe this is more so out of pandemic times, but that your your friend invites you out, and you don't want to go. But you feel like you should. And you've said no, already, but you're getting this feeling inside of you, which is saying, but are they going to hate me? Maybe they'll never invite me. All of those thoughts are about them. Now ask yourself how you feel? Did you feel relieved? When you said no? Did you feel proud of yourself? When you said no? Because every time we have a thought about another person, it's, it's always going to be about another person. It's Yeah, do they hate me? Are they never going to invite me again? Or they're annoyed that I cancelled, like, it's always about them? So if you actually stop yourself and go, Wait, no, those are all them thoughts? What are my thoughts? And what do I think right now? And what do I feel right now and check in with your body because I don't think we, as a society place enough emphasis that our body tells us a lot. And inside our body, we can feel whether we feel good about a decision or not. But we ignore that because of all the chatter in our heads. And we can get distracted by the noise in our heads. When actually, if you just sat, took a deep breath and go, No, I actually feel relieved. I don't have to leave the house. Like that's why I said no. Remind yourself of why you made that decision. And that there was a reason you said that. So stick to what you said. Because you were prioritising, prioritising yourself, even if the resulting consequence is this guilt or whatever those emotions are, it isn’t that you made the wrong decision.

Gemma Styles: I think that's really good advice. Okay, so next question is from Sabine, who asks…

How do you strike the balance between being a good, supportive sibling or friend or partner, without being constantly available, or ready to save someone else?

Michelle Elman: I think this is controversial. But I think you're good supportive person… when you let people do it themselves. Like you- we spend so much time caretaking other people around us. And what's implicit in that is you don't believe they're capable of doing it themselves. So yes, if you have the energy, sit there and listen, support them. But don't make decisions for them, don't feel like you have to. A lot of the time when someone's angry, for example, you'll get angry for them. No, you can sit there in your calmness and in your peace, and support them in their anger, you don't need to feel it for them. So, the way I believe I'm a good friend, or I'm a great partner is I take care of my own emotions, I won't rely on you to do that for me, I can cry by myself, I can process something by myself. And all of those skills took time and it took years and it's not a quick fix. But bit by bit by getting okay with my own company and getting okay with like, dealing with situations myself and realising the difference between support and emotionally dumping on someone was a huge thing in my life. So I was the worst culprit of this. I used to like, if I was angry- And weirdly, like, this is such a silly situation. But the first idea, the first situation that came in my head was, someone stole my content on social media, it really annoyed me. And I was like- I know, this is silly, and I know it's stupid, but it really annoyed me- and I got instantly angry. And you know, when like, you're just like, it, the emotion comes into your body, like so quickly. And it's come out of nowhere. And it was because it was a really like, personal caption that I'd written about rejection. And then I feel like, I felt rejected that someone else had taken it. But what I did is I went and like fired off three texts to people. I didn't even wait for one person to reply, I just like fired off texts. And, and then, oh, this is what's brought it up- I tell the story in the book. But one of my friends then went commented on that post, and was like, This caption looks familiar. And I was like, Oh, why did you do that… So I just wanted to vent. But then I like, I think because that happened, it made me take a step back. And I was like, Oh, that was not that was not support. Like that wasn't going to my friends for support. That was emotionally dumping. Because I didn't even take a breath between me feeling that anger and me then like, essentially projecting it to someone else. And it's that space between it where it was like, I couldn't even sit with it for a second because the anger was so big and instant, no matter what it was about, like I know, I'm talking about social media, which is quite trivial. But like this could be anything. And whether it's your mum body shaming you or whatnot. And it was so instant that like, if I was honest with myself, I didn't want to sit in that discomfort. So what did I do? I took that anger to pass it off to someone else. It wasn’t like yeah, if you reply, I'll actually have a conversation with you. But I'm not actually going to wait for one person to reply. And and it's those interactions I think is the best way to know the difference is, you have to know when you're supporting someone, and when you're being on the receiving end of an emotional dump. And it's okay to say, I don't have the emotional capacity for this right now. Or, like, what I tend to do is, I tend to reply with what I call a low investment reply. Well just be like, Oh, that sucks. But like, if you actually send me a text being like, hey, do you have a moment? Can you talk to me about something? Then I'll be like Yeah, sure, because I agreed to this conversation- I haven't agreed to you then dumping everything. But what happened? That situation was because I was so instantly angry, and because I had bad boundaries around it. And then my friend who commented on that post had bad boundaries around it. It now was like, I was dealing with all of that situation. And all that meant was I never dealt with the anger around it. I mean, I did later because I recognised what had happened. But it's, that's where I think in order to be a good friend, sister, employee, whatnot, and being able to take ownership of your own emotions, and knowing when you need to sit with something. And that's not to say, like, if I sat with it and was like, okay, some of this is coming up from childhood, because, like, I feel rejected. And that was a really personal thing. Some of it, I'm actually still annoyed about it, but it wouldn’t be at that intensity. So there's the saying, it's, if it's hysterical, then it's historical, which- I know there's quite a sexist history to the word hysterical. But it comes from that saying, and essentially, if you overreact to something, which I don't like to use the word overreact, because it's always used towards women. But like, if you have a big reaction, and you're like, I'm not really sure why, it's usually coming from the past, because if someone stole my content, I wouldn't normally, like react that in that bigger way. Yeah. Well, I wouldn't care that much, to be honest. But in that moment, I did. Because it was specifically about something. And it reminded me about a feeling. And so it was about so much more than that. And if I'd been able to sit with it, I would recognise that rather than be like, I mean, I could spend the next week talking about that. But all of that would be a distraction, and meaning that I don't focus on the actual problem at hand.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. I mean, all our questions are leading in together so nicely. So, last one, is from Jess. So on the subject of you know, dealing with your own emotions and kind of listening to what you're doing within yourself, Jess’s question is…

Any tips for how to coach yourself through difficult or challenging moments or decisions? Like key questions you should ask yourself out loud to help you get the most rational outcome?

Michelle Elman: So you need to look at your values when it comes to that. So if it's a decision in your career, you need to look at what's important to you, and asking yourself what's important to me in my career, and if the words like accomplishment come up, or money comes up, or appreciation- so my top values are probably appreciation, accomplishment, and creativity. And so then if I make a decision about whether I should move from one job to another, then I can go Okay, so does it fulfil my main three criteria in my career? Do I get creativity from it, okay, I get more creativity. But I get less appreciation, maybe because I don't have a superior who's going to be able to give feedback. And being able to look at your values will give you a better way of knowing whether it fulfils essentially your values show you how, what what fulfils you in that area of your life. So, in a romantic relationship, your values could be love, it could be sex, it could be fun, it could be enjoyment- and your values change. So like, I tend to do, I actually sit down and do all my values and my different areas of life. And I try to do it once a year. And I tend to do it on New Year's, I'm quite a cliche. But it's really important because when, when it comes to big decisions, I'm like, Oh, okay. And it's also quite interesting, because then you can see how, what I wanted in my love life four years ago is so different to what I want in my love life now. Like I used to have excitement as one of my main values- I do not want excitement now. I want security. I like, do not want any intensity or any of that. So like it's it's interesting to see how you change but then it makes and it's basically figuring out what makes you happy in each area of your life. And so you can look at this list and go, Oh, that makes sense why I hated that job. Or Oh, that makes sense why that relationship never worked because he never appreciated when I cooked him dinner because like, appreciation is really important to me. Or in the same thing where I could be like, Oh, I really need appreciation. My partner is not giving that to me right now. And I can say, Hey, one of my top values in a relationship is appreciation. So I know it's not a big thing, but when I cook dinner like, a thank you would be really nice and, and be able to communicate that because you actually know what the problem is, rather than all you feel is like resentment and you don't know why. Now you can look at your values and be like, Oh, it's because I'm not being appreciated.

[music]

recommendations

Gemma Styles: Remember, if you want to get in touch with us, or have any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.

Before you go, I have three things I asked every guest. And that's if listeners want to learn more, find out more about what we've been talking about. Can you give us something to read, something to listen to, and something to watch?

Michelle Elman: Yes. So I've actually, really frustratingly, I read this book after I finished writing my own book, and I read every book on boundaries, couldn't find anything that I wanted to include. And then the moment I finish it, the moment I handed it in, and it was like, nope, you can't change anything, I found a really good book by Pia Mellody, called The Intimacy Factor. And she talks about boundaries in a very different way to me, she's quite- I'm quite macro about boundaries. So I separate boundaries into like, material boundaries, physical boundaries, intellectual boundaries, emotional boundaries, where she talks about like, talking and listening boundaries, which I would put talking and listening boundaries under conversational boundaries, which I would put under intellectual boundaries. But like going down to that like micro level and being like, how do you listen with good boundaries? How do you talk with good boundaries? And I found that really interesting. And I really agree with how she talks about boundaries. I think everyone slightly disagrees at the moment because it's such a new area. But that was one book I loved. And I generally love Pia Mellody, she has another book called Facing Love Addiction. And she and her model around love life where she talks about love addicts, and love avoidance really revolutionised the way I thought about my own love life and actually is now the way I coach around love life, because I think it's just, I've never seen anything like it. And I'm just a fan of Pia.

Gemma Styles: Amazing, and if you could recommend us something to listen to please?

Michelle Elman: There's an amazing podcast by Esther Perel called Where Shall We Begin, and I'm quite a psychology geek. And I love the fact that it's essentially a whole podcast where she's doing therapy with a couple, and you're literally a fly on the wall in these couples therapy sessions. And it's so interesting, because, like, I'm not married, and most of these couples are married, but just how they interact with each other. And being a third person observer in that situation, you could be like, Oh, that's how communication goes wrong. And you see it so clearly when you're not part of the situation. But it's probably the most interesting podcast in terms of the format, that I've listened to, but also in terms of understanding boundaries, and how you communicate within a romantic relationship. It's a really great lesson.

Gemma Styles: That sounds like a really good one, I'm definitely gonna check that one out. And finally, if you have a recommendation for something for us to watch, please?

Michelle Elman: I just watched The Social Dilemma. So I would encourage you to watch it. I didn't think it was actually the best documentary, but it is a very good documentary to motivate you to create online boundaries and realise what's- how it's a very slippery slope to let yourself just go with naturally how much you want to be on social media, like you have to very actively want to change your relationship with your phone and change your relationship with social media. And I feel like Social Dilemma gave me all the motivation I needed to make the changes that I've been trying to make since January. But it's, it's one of those, it's not a linear progress chart. It's like, yeah, they could improve it. And then you slip back down, and you get a bit lax with it and your phone's in your bedroom again, and then you're like, nope, phones out of the bedroom laptop out of the bedroom. And you start all over again. But it's a good motivation. And I think the best part for me was when they said that all these tech people don't let their children use social media. I was like, You created something and you don't even let your own children use it.

Gemma Styles: I have heard that actually. So- I still haven't watched this, I keep meaning to watch it. I almost don't want to know, it's kind of blissful ignorance. I don't need to watch that as well.

Michelle Elman: I was like, if I watch this, I could quit my job. So I didn't watch it for like a month and I was like, I'm not watching it because then I'm going to, it's gonna make my job more difficult. And um… it didn't make me want to quit my job, but it did make me very conscious about how much time I'm spending on it.

Gemma Styles: Boundaries, boundaries, boundaries.

Michelle Elman: Exactly.

outro

Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening to Good Influence and thank you to Michelle for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, please take a moment to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player, or wherever you're listening. And if you're feeling generous, rate and review too. It's really appreciated and helps others find the podcast. See you next week!