S01E06 Transcript: Deborah Frances-White
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intro
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Gemma Styles: Hello, I’m Gemma and welcome to Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest, who’ll help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answer some of your questions. This week we’re talking about feminism. Intersectional feminism, the importance of the media we consume, as well as the refugee crisis and how to use your skills for good. Joining me this week is Deborah Frances-White. Deborah is a comedian, author, screenwriter and podcaster. She co-created award winning podcast The Guilty Feminist in 2015, which has since since amassed over 50 million downloads worldwide and successfully expanded into live recordings and tours. Deborah uses this platform to help multiple causes, particularly related to refugees and human rights in her role as an ambassador for Amnesty International. The Guilty Feminist famously begins with guests sharing their bad feminist confessions with the now widely recognisable phrase “I’m a feminist, but…”
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Deborah Frances-White: I'm a feminist, but I would be prepared to cause the first scandal of the Biden-Harris White House by running off with Kamala Harris if she would make me her first lady.
Gemma Styles: That would be quite the scandal. I don't even know whether it would manage to trump - ha - the other scandals that we've been plagued by recently but, it would be a good one.
Deborah Frances-White: It'd probably be the only scandal of the Biden-Harris White House. What's your ‘I'm a feminist, but’ Gemma?
Gemma Styles: I'm a feminist, but I do quite like it when my boyfriend reaches things off high shelves for me that I can't reach. It makes me feel small and cute.
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discussion
Gemma Styles: I'll say off the bat like this is a very intimidating recording for me because you are a very successful podcaster and I am an extremely new podcaster.
Deborah Frances-White: Stop it, Gemma.
Gemma Styles: And two because doing an episode of a podcast about feminism instantly breaks me out in a cold sweat where I think Oh God, I don't know enough to do a whole episode about this. I'm gonna say something wrong.
Deborah Frances-White: No, firstly, you're talking to the guilty feminist here. So my whole ethos is there's loads of things we don't know, at whatever stage of feminism we're at, whatever stage of life we're at. There's always more things to know. And also, I think the thing about feminism is, it's always changing. So you're- the idea that you can know it all is a- I don't think feminists should ever feel satisfied and like they know it all, because the world is changing. So what feminism needs now Biden and Harris have won is different than what it needed when Trump and Pence were in, although they still are in until January and are making all sorts of trouble. But feminism needs to respond to that. And as said, feminism, as mainstream feminism has, by necessity, become more intersectional and still needs to become a lot more intersectional which means to take into account in case any of the listeners haven't heard that word before. Because again, you know, you don't know today what you didn't you don't know today, what you what you will know tomorrow.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Deborah Frances-White: So the intersections of marginalisation or privilege need to be taken into account by which we mean, gender is one thing that can exclude you from rooms of influence. But also, race is something that can exclude you from rooms of influence and disability is and gender expression is and sexual orientation is. And gender identity is. So if you combine those, so if you say, Well, most rooms of influence, contain or have historically contained only white men, who at least seemed to be straight, and have masculine gender expression, and are not disabled, then the more of those identities that you share, the more that you've won one of life's lotteries, because those men have made the world work for them. And so if you happen to also be white, well, they've made the world easier for white people, if you also happen not to be in a wheelchair, they've made the world easier for people who are not in wheelchairs, and so on and so on. So, so we can't just think about feminism as, as women and men, harder for women easier for men, because that's just not always the case. Because go and look in, you know, in in at the figures for who's in jail, and I’m telling you there’s a lot more black men in jail than white women. So, like we start there, and we're- so as the awareness of, of, I suppose, just women who call themselves feminists who are not academics, has become more focused on intersectionality, feminism has changed. So you saying Oh well I don't really know enough about feminism not sure if I know enough to get through a whole podcast… Neither do I! It depends who I'm talking to whether, you know what? And also I learn from everyone I meet. Absolutely, that's the whole idea of the [Guilty Feminist] podcast is I'm learning in public, and I'm learning with you. So I think the most powerful thing you could do Gemma on this podcast is learn with your audience.
Gemma Styles: I mean, that is exactly what I wanted to do with this podcast. So I'm very happy to hear that. And I think- I did kind of want to say this to you, because and I think it's, like you were saying is there's always more things to do. And feminism is changing. And I know there are a lot of people who identify as feminists and have done for a long time who want to know, you know, I kind of feel like my household is quite feminist now. But what do I do next? But however, there are also a lot of people… And when, you know, people have sent in questions for this episode. And there are people from all around the world, lots of lovely people who've sent in questions and comments and thoughts. And a lot of those people don't live in the UK or don't live in the US and it's still the case that a lot of these young women are saying, you know, are still scared to call themselves feminists in public, because there's still not an accepted reception of that. Like, I think it's easy for us to forget that not everyone is in the same position as us.
Deborah Frances-White: Oh, yeah, we are living in a lovely bubble. I mean, I don't know why more people don't want to live in this bubble, actually, who have access to it. It's a lovely bubble. It's really kind and generous and warm, and makes people feel welcome. So I, I love this bubble. But I'm also aware lots of people don't have the privilege to live in that bubble. And you're right there are- I had, I met a woman who came to mind my cats last Christmas, and she saw that I had a feminist book and she was from France, and she said, I'm a feminist. But she said, but most people in France won't say they're a feminist because they might believe in equality for all genders, but they don't say that because that- they won’t, they won’t use the word feminist because it's tarnished. And or that’s just, not how they identify, but I love the word feminist. I know I want more people. I'd much rather someone be a feminist, and say they're not one. Than say they are one, and not be one. I know that's true.
Gemma Styles: Oh, I love that as a soundbite.
Deborah Frances-White: But I'd much rather they say they were one and be one because the word is important. Because it says in the word, fem, it says we are asking for equality for women. And as our awareness grows more intersectionally I would say for women and people of minority genders. And I think that we need not to apologise and say, Oh, we just mean equality for everybody. Because that's, that's that's verging into all lives matter territory. Yeah, all lives matter. But the reason people are saying Black Lives Matter is that is not evident, by the way that Black people are treated. Yeah, so that's, that's what that's why you're saying Black Lives Matter. And the same is, is- the same issue is there with feminism, It’s no good calling it equalism, or it you know, it just, isn't it great when a human, I'm just a humanist. Oh, please, come on. Look at the history of the world. Look at the representation in Parliament, look at the representation on television. And ask yourself if, if, if, if it is a- if equality is just a sort of vague problem, and doesn't have these very specific issues to it?
Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's all well and good being, you know, equalist, like you said or equal for everyone. But that is the whole point of feminism in the first place. That's kind of wilfully changing what it means.
Deborah Frances-White: Yeah, it's, it's, we need the fem in feminism, we need it. We need to say that women don't get equal treatment. And and mostly, that's just because there's not enough women in rooms of power. Sandi Toksvig told me yesterday, she came on my podcast, it's not like I'm just constantly texting Sandi Toksvig. Just to be very clear. It sounds very glamorous when I say that. She was on my podcast yesterday.
Gemma Styles: You sound like close personal friends, I’m jealous.
Deborah Frances-White: I just learned a lot from her yesterday. No, she's really lovely Sandi Toksvig. She told me there's something called COP26, which is a climate summit happening in Glasgow. Let me just have a look. And there is not one woman going to COP26!
Gemma Styles: Pardon?!
Deborah Frances-White: Yeah, that's what she told me and she said nobody's talking about it. '“UK plan to use all male team to host the UN Climate Summit.” Genuinely a thing. All the politicians who will host the COP26 talks for the UK in Glasgow are men. And you just have to question that because climate change disproportionately affects women. And yet no women are being consulted, having a voice, having influence. And this is why the suffragettes fought for the vote so much, I think we forget, we just think it was almost like, yeah, of course they wanted to vote. It's not about wanting to vote. It's about this. Politicians do not make policy for people who cannot vote, or for people who don't have representation. So children cannot vote, but parents can vote. Therefore, they need to make some policy that includes children, right? When women could not vote, women did not have rights. This is where they wanted to vote. A man could just say ‘my wife's insane’, because he wanted to, he was sick of her, or be with someone else. And she would be committed to an institution, for life, on his say so. That happened all the time! Happened to T.S. Eliot's wife. There's a statue for him, I'm sure, in this city. You know, like, you just- women could have their children taken away, just like nope, she's not a fit mother, they just take them away. We had no rights. As soon as we could vote, they had to start asking the question, What is going to make them vote for us? So then women could say, we're not voting for your party, unless we have some rights as workers not just to be fired or sexually harassed, or we'd want rights over our own children. We don't think our husband should just be able to take our children away, because they've decided we're not fit mothers. We think we think we need a say in that and the court needs to decide that if there's a dispute. That's how we got every right we've got. It was a few decades, there are women I know who remember they couldn't get a credit card without their husband or their father signing for it. Seriously, they couldn't get a mortgage, they couldn’t get a credit card, couldn’t get anything. This is, we're talking like I think that was around like the 70s that changed. This is not long ago.
Gemma Styles: Ugh. It is, it's crazy, isn't it? Because I feel like this comes up all the time. And I think you're right is so easy to think like, Oh, but, that was so long ago, like, Oh, it was hundreds of years ago, and it wasn't hundreds of years ago.
Deborah Frances-White: No! No, it was very recent that these things, how things will be in 50 years, people will look back and go- Do you realise what women were putting up with in 2020? There was nobody at the climate summit, who was a woman- like it would seem laughable to people in 50 years. [faux cries] I hope! If we're still here, if the climate summit works.
Gemma Styles: This is the thing that brings me hope to be honest, when I look at these things, I look back and think how it wasn't long ago at all that things were so much worse. And I think like, Oh, well isn’t better now- still a bit shit, though. But, could- imagine how much better it could be in that much time again.
Deborah Frances-White: And that's the thing, is that the suffragettes and the women in the second wave of feminism in the 70s. And, you know, and all the women in between and before, who fought in such- in ways that were actually brutal for their own bodies and souls, they allowed the system to brutalise them, for us, because they knew that their lives would be terrible. But it was never going to change for future generations of girls and women, unless they did that. That's why they did it. So we are the living hopes of the suffragettes and the women who came before us. We are walking around living their dreams. Every time we take out a credit card inadvisedly, and run it up and then can't pay it off. [both laugh] We are living their actual dreams. When we get to university, we apply and think Oh, yeah, I might go to uni. Oh, yeah. So what shall I study? Should I yeah, I'm gonna I mean, I've always wanted to be a doctor… When we just flippantly go Ooh I might go and study English Literature at Oxford. Women, oh, my God, they suffered for that so that we could complain that we've got an essay crisis. And not do our, not hand in our essays on time. And stay up all night drinking Wicked. Is that still a thing? WKD?
Gemma Styles: Oh, I mean, it definitely was when I was at uni.
Deborah Frances-White: What did you study at uni?
Gemma Styles: I studied Medical Genetics for a year, and then didn't do that any more because I was horribly depressed and miserable. So then I went and did the teaching degree that I originally wanted to do.
Deborah Frances-White: That sounds good. But actually, I would think a year of Medical Genetics would be a brilliant thing to have in your, in your toolkit. Because you'll always-
Gemma Styles: I mean it was- there was so much of it that was so interesting. And now actually, I feel like it's, it's one of those things with you know, like, it's almost the opposite of the benefit of hindsight, that- and I find this a lot about depressive episodes anyway, I kind of look back and I'm like, What was so bad about that right then? And actually, maybe it wasn't that there was anything so bad with that, but I was just not happy and I think there doesn't have to be anything wrong with anything for you not to be happy with it anyway. I guess this is just, you know, me… and the benefit of, of the modern-ish society that I lived in, I was able to not only go and do the degree that I wanted to do but change my mind and go and do a different one.
Deborah Frances-White: Yes, I think a lot of people suffer from depression when they're at university. And particularly now in the pandemic, actually, it must be really awful. Because- Could you imagine your university experience except you can't hang out in the bar or hug your friend or-
Gemma Styles: I cannot imagine.
Deborah Frances-White: -have your mate come over and get into bed with you and eat ice cream in the middle of the night. It must be awful. But yeah, you're- I mean, you're completely not alone, to have switched your degree or felt miserable and sad at that age, and in that space, as you know, but the fact that women can live that sort of experience and suffer from the human condition of having a miserable time at university, is its own privilege. Because men have always suffered from the human condition. I think my personal definition of the human condition is thinking things should be a little bit different from how they are, even when the circumstances are the ones you chose. You always think something could be better, or you Why, why? Why have I got what I want, and now I feel miserable. Like what? You know, I'm still yearning for something. That's the human condition. And before, women had basic rights, they didn't have the privilege to suffer from the human condition, because it was so clear that things needed to be vastly different from how they were, before they could even get into that place of ennui at University going, I'm probably studying the wrong subject. You know, d’you know what I mean? [Gemma laughs] Like, that's a human thing. I'll write a poem about it. I'll write terrible song about it and do it at an open mic night, you know, like that. That feeling of lying in the grass and wondering what it's all for, only comes to people who are privileged enough to have the time and space to feel a bit miserable about things being as good as they can be.
Gemma Styles: That's very true, I think. And it's kind of- it makes me think of something that my GP said to me when we were talking about depression. And she said, that you don't see people around the world in poverty who are depressed, because it's kind of like there's just too much more going on.
Deborah Frances-White: It's, it's something to do with Maslow's hierarchy of needs. If you are in a state of trauma, and you do not have, currently have food and shelter, and you are not safe. Your brain does not have time to deal with depression. So I live with a man, my husband and I met a man three years ago on a podcast, called Steve Ali, who I've talked about a lot on The Guilty Feminist. And he's been on The Guilty Feminist a number of times, and he's from Syria, and he had to flee during the war. He was in the middle of his degree, his architecture degree, which he was enjoying. Haha. He was, he wanted to do it. He was loving it. And Steve had to flee. And he ended up five years displaced. And then I met him three months into him living in London, he came to mind our cats, he has never left. He's lived with us for three years. I mean, we want that, that just sounded like he's never left, when will he? We don't want him to leave. We love, love Steve he is our- Steve as as much family to Tom and me as anyone in the world. He is 100% our family, and always will be. And he is- he speaks very, very intelligently, with a combination of lived experience and comprehensive close reading on this. And he says when you're in trauma, your brain does not have time to process it. It’s no use to you if you're, as he was, a refugee on the run, to sit on the bank of the of, you know, a beach in Greece and cry because you nearly just died in a dinghy and things went, well, you know, were terrifying. And, you know, you faced your mortality- because you've got to climb up a mountain, which is going to take all day to get to a refugee, you know, reception slash detention centre before you were allowed to go on the next leg of your journey. So it's not, it's not a good time to sit and process that. So he read a lot about it on the, when he was on the move. And he said, what your brain does is it shelves it, puts it on a shelf, so that you can take it down later and process it when you are not running for your life. And our break- we are, human beings are ridiculously adaptable. But Steve wrote this brilliant article that everyone should read in GQ Magazine, British GQ at the beginning of the pandemic, saying- just when we've gone into lockdown- and it's called we're all refugees now, and he says in the article, that's a hyperbole. You know, we're not really all refugees, but he said what I'm trying to say to you is, this is what refugees have to do. Something has blindsided them. They didn't want it, didn't ask for it. But it's here now. And you've got to adapt to it, you've got to adapt to it. And he says in the article, you are adapting to it, you're doing things differently this week than you were last week, you didn't know how to use zoom. Now, it's all you know how to do. You, you didn't know how you would cope without seeing your friends and family, you know, and, you know, cooking for yourself all the time, and you, when you used to eat out three nights a week after work or whatever, now you do, you didn't know how to homeschool your children, you're working it out, you're figuring it out. And that's- he draws the parallel between that and the refugee experience. And it's very, very brilliant. Because it sort of make it when you read it, you think, Oh my god, refugees are so experienced at this, for refugees lockdown, it's just like, it's just another thing that you adapt to. But for us, it was like the first big thing that had happened to us as a society. Not not, we've all had individual trauma. And many people have had terrible individual trauma and, you know, desperate circumstances, but as a society, just a big old thing happening to us it was it was a bit of a shock if you you know, if you lived in a wealthy western country. So exactly what your GP was saying. You're not going to experience a lot of depression, when you're in the midst of a trauma because your brain is so clever. It says, No, we've got to survive now. You can be depressed later. And a lot of the trauma that refugees experience is only able to come out once they are safe. And that is why if you have refugees in your community, and you probably do, it would be really nice to find a way to reach out and create a social or listening space where some of the refugees’ needs are met beyond food and shelter. And that's something that feminism could be doing brilliantly in 2021. Because, you know, a lot of refugees are women, and the refugees that are men have had a worse time than you. So it's something that activists and feminists can be actively doing in their own communities if they want to.
Gemma Styles: Work and awareness around refugees and the refugee crisis is something that you're now very involved in both personally and with The Guilty Feminist platform, if I’m right in saying that, I guess could you kind of expand more on why that is, and kind of how, how feminism and the issue of refugees and the refugee crisis are so linked to you kind of if people haven't made that connection before, can we sort of expand a bit on it?
Deborah Frances-White: Yes. So I became involved with refugees. Because friends of mine, were going to the Calais jungle. And I just saw there was a need, I connected with a few people on Facebook, I connected with a refugee family, from Iraq, who were living in Austria near friends of mine. I dunno something just drew me to it. And I think a lot of people got drawn to it around the same time, when a little boy was washed up on the beach in Greece, and he had died. And it was around 2015. And it was just a really arresting image. And that's when a lot of people started going to Calais to volunteer. And I knew that I had this podcast, and this was a good platform. And I took some friends who are much more active and involved in that world than I was. And I thought what can I bring? And I think this is a really good thing to think of Gemma. Sometimes we think, Oh, I couldn't do what they're doing. I can't go over to Greece and volunteer, so therefore I can't do anything. And a good question to ask is What are you good at? So if you- if you're a teacher, what are you teaching your sixth form students? And what could you be putting into the curriculum that you are currently not? That could make them think differently? If you're a mother of two children? How, how are you raising those two children? And what opportunities do you have to to influence them and their friends to think critically, and they could be four or five or six, you know, but at that level, is there something you could be doing down at the school as a volunteer, you know, book programme or, you know, if you've got brilliant skills as a graphic designer, who could you offer those skills to? So it's not always thinking, oh, I've got to be donating this much money and I've got no money at the moment or I've got to be you know, taking a month off to volunteer, and I can't do that. And I find that intimidating. It could be you are brilliant at editing videos. So you could contact Amnesty International and say, I could do, you know, five hours a month editing videos for you. That's what I'd like to, that's what I'd like to offer. Or you could find like a little startup initiative that, you know, you could join as a collective. And you might think, well, I don't have any skills like that at all. And in which case, I'm going to suggest to you that you can make post little videos on an Instagram that give other people suggestions of things they could do, and that will probably become quite popular. So what is it that you like doing? And can you bring that? So in this case, I thought, Well, what I have is an influential podcast.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Deborah Frances-White: So what I can bring is broadcasting. And so I asked some other podcasters if they would have some refugees on their podcast, Adam Buxton did it, we did it on Global Pillage. And to have refugees not talking about being refugees really just talk about themselves as human beings and show other sides of themselves, because displacement is only one part of any refugee story, they, they don't identify mostly as a refugee. That's something that's happened to them. You know, I went to Greece with Josie Norton, who runs Choose Love. And, you know, the kids I met in the school out there were just unbelievable, you know, and that their love of, you know, everything from hip hop to poetry to photography, to you know, they're just human beings who've had to leave their home at short notice. They're just you and me. I don't know. I don't know what kind of music you like, or what kind of TV you like. What's your favourite TV show?
Gemma Styles: I like a lot of cartoons. I find them soothing.
Deborah Frances-White: Do you! Like what?
Gemma Styles: Yeah. Um, my favourite is Bob's Burgers.
Deborah Frances-White: So you know, something like, if you are suddenly if you and I are suddenly in a boat, suddenly, climate change, war, something happens in London. And we have to get down to Dover and get in a boat and get off the coast or we’re going to die? You loving Bob's Burgers is not going to change.
Gemma Styles: [decisive] No, it won't.
Deborah Frances-White: [laughs] If you end up somewhere else in a- in another country where you don't speak the language. And the only place you're allowed to live is a camp. And you're given a tent by a volunteer. And you've got no way of getting out or getting back to your home country, you are going to be trying to find a little bit of 4G to watch some comforting Bob's Burgers.
Gemma Styles: Exactly that. I think it's such a, it's such a good point that you make. And it's kind of it's one of the things that I think is definitely missing from these conversations. And something that I guess- I don't know if it's difficult to find, or if I just haven't looked for it enough. But it is that kind of, you know, human element to things because there's still such a, oh, I don't know, such a horrible narrative where you know, people hear the word refugee, or, to a certain extent, immigrants, even in general, I think, and it's kind of, you know, Why have they come here? And you know, that, Oh, well, what, like, what are they getting out of it? And I don't think it's a- it's not a question of what are they getting out of it? It's a question of, like, put yourself in their shoes, like people don't go through this kind of thing, because they fancy getting 37 pounds a week from the UK Government. Like, that's not why people leave their homes and countries and put themselves- not put themselves even, you know, and go through such dangerous and difficult and awful, unimaginable peril and situations. Like, you just have to ask yourself, you know, why? Why would they do that? And when you actually ask yourself that question, you have to come to the answer that their lives were in danger.
Deborah Frances-White: It's really not plausible that people would risk drowning to come to Britain, with its dodgy weather and, you know, it's, frankly, you know, not brilliant reception of people coming from other countries, you have to be in danger, you have to be terrified. But if you took any thousand people out of the UK and put them in boats off the coast of Dover, that's who refugees are. In that, in that random 1000 people, in those boats there'd be the CEO of a bank in Canary Wharf and someone who cleans the floor of the bank. There'd be a librarian suffering from unrequited love. There'd be a software developer who reckons their app’s just about to break through. That's who refugees are. They’re people who’ve had to leave home at short notice and they’re are all sorts of people, and I thought that my podcast or and, and a variety of podcasts would be a great way to start to change the narrative around refugees. And that's how we ended up involved and I've met some amazing people- ooh we've got an episode coming out Gemma that you're gonna love, was a refugee that Amnesty International brought us called Kawther, from Syria, to it's talking about families being reunited because she's very young and she can't get her her family over here. Because the government won't allow it. And she just talked a lot about wanting to be an interior designer, she's an amazing designer. And, you know, she just she seemed like anyone's sister or cousin or you know, and it's, it's that- she ended up talking to Steve in Arabic because he popped in and he lives here and I was saying, oh, Steve, she could help you interior design your room because there's a lot of stuff in it. And Steve has a joke that the apparently the biggest hoarder in Britain died. And so he thinks there's an opening. [laughing] And this is cuz Steve has a lot of stuff. His rooms actually rather beautiful. It's like an Instagram’s paradise. Really. It's very beautifully curated. But he has a lot of stuff from his displacement. That's very important to him, you know, understandably, but there's a lot of stuff in a room. That's that's not a terribly small room, but-
Gemma Styles: He's a maximalist!
Deborah Frances-White: He is a maximalist. So I was like, oh, maybe Kawther could help you with your room and he was joking and going No, I don't, nothing sparks j- don't come in with your sparking joy, you know, and I loved that, making that podcast because it, the more that we can stop othering people, and this is what feminism needs to do, in my opinion. The more that- because if you're right wing, you look at refugees and boats and think scary. And if you're liberal, you think look at refugees and boats and think sad, needs my white saviour help, and, or, you know, Western help if you're not white. But in reality, the more we can stop othering people and going, Ooh, your displacement makes you so different from me, and realise that a lot of people in those boats have a favourite episode of Friends. That's true. That's an actual thing. Like, like, just- No, it's just you in a boat. It's just you in a boat. And it's also the, I think one of the biggest challenges for feminism in the next year or two is for white people to stop othering Black people and I believe all white people do it. And maybe there are some white people who don't, but I- to not look at Black people and go Mostly you are your Blackness, and to not look at trans, for cis people not to look at trans people and go mostly you are your transness because that's not true. It's not true. That's not to say that your race or your your, your gender identity doesn't inform who you are, of course it does.
Gemma Styles: Yeah
Deborah Frances-White: But it isn't the sum of who you are, and isn't even necessarily and probably isn't the most important thing about who you are. And the more we can- and I really think feminism needs to do this because I think white feminists have a terrible problem of othering and straight cisgendered feminists have it too. And if you're not disabled, you look at someone in a wheelchair and then, that's the biggest thing about them to you. That they're in a wheelchair. And and honestly the only thing that will get us past this is knowing more people and and and any time that you get to, get it- we all know this is true. You you start working with someone in a wheelchair and then them being in a wheelchair is not even in the top 10 most interesting things about them. But if you don't know anyone in a wheelchair, that's not true. And human beings are brilliant at exceptionalising. There's a lot of racist people who go well my neighbours different might because you know, Sanjeev is different. He's a good guy. Mostly we don't want them over here. But Sanjeev is different. When my wife was sick, you know, he was in here every day, you know, helping her out and blah, blah, blah when I was away. Yes, Sanjeev is a good guy. But we don't want any more- that, that is a thing human beings can do. We can exceptionalise and still other everybody else. So my ‘I've got Black friends’ is that is the classic line- you might do and you could still be very, very racist. So the more we can stop othering people and start humanising people. And it tends to be people to the dominant group that do it, because obviously if you've been raised on lots and lots and lots and lots of white television, and lots and lots, lots of male heroes, you do see white men as you know, as human beings because all your life growing up that you've had to filter your experiences through white male, straight, non disabled cisgendered heroes. So of course, of course- it's very easy for me to see James Bond as a human being. Do you see what I mean?
Gemma Styles: Yes. I do, yeah.
Deborah Frances-White: So it's mostly, it's mostly an experience that if you're not of the dominant group, the more you're not of the dominant group, the more you humanise everybody.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Deborah Frances-White: And you individualise everybody, because of your life experience. The more you are of the dominant group, the more you only humanise the people in the dominant group.
Gemma Styles: I mean for me then, I guess the next question would be- speaking as a cis, white, able bodied woman? How- are there any sort of tips that you give to me or anybody else who might fall under that? Like, how do you… what are kind of actionable points of how you can start to try and work against your own tendency to other people? Where do you, where do you look for these conversations. Are there any pointers that you could give?
Deborah Frances-White: Well, firstly, you're you are what you consume to a certain extent. If you predominantly consume media created by white people, for white people, that will always be your norm. And the one documentary you watch made by Black women, by a team of Black creative seems exceptional to you. So I think it was a couple of Christmases ago, I was watching It's a Wonderful Life with Susie Wokoma, who's a very close friend of mine. And Steve, from Syria. Susie's a Black woman, and we were all crying, watching It's a Wonderful Life. And I thought God isn’t it interesting, that Susie's there feeling for- if you don't know the movie, because you're terribly young, and you're listening- it's a James Stewart movie. It was made, I think it was made in the war? Second World War? But it’s a cla- it's a classic Christmas movie. It's black and white kids, strap in. But it's about a man who thinks There's no point to me living anymore. And then an angel shows him what what life would have been like for other people if he'd never lived and how many people he's touched and affected. It's very moving. It's lovely. And it's very weepy. It's a real weepy. But I was watching Steve and Susie cry for James Stewart. And I was like, when does a white man ever sit at Christmas and look through the eyes of a Black woman, or look through the eyes of someone from Syria who’s displaced and cry? Like that would be an exceptional thing. They would be watching something other, they'd be congratulating themselves because they've watched something on Netflix that's about a Black woman because- and that would be the something, one or two things they might watch like that a year. And that is why they will still be othering, the Black woman in the movie at the end of the movie and not crying for her in the same way that Susie can easily feel the pain of Jimmy Stewart because she has spent her whole life crying for men like Jimmy Stewart, because that has, that's the- that's what's available as she was growing up. There's much more available now because of Netflix. And yeah, but that was what was available. Do you see what I mean? So we- we’re not practiced.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, totally.
Deborah Frances-White: So when I started reading Toni Morrison, more Toni Morrison, and this is a- Song of Solomon is a book I really recommend to readers that when I, when I, when I started reading, changing my diet, really. Changing what I watched, changing what I listened to, changing what I read. It dawned on me, far too late, that my experience was in no way, general, or mainstream. It was niche. The experience of the white woman is a nice experience, the experience of the white man is a niche experience. There are more people in the world who are not white than there are white. But we have been presented with a media diet, a story diet for so long, that makes us think that our experience is mainstream. It isn't, it isn't. So the more you can consume stories about people who are human beings, living a life, having lived suffering from the human condition, you know, whatever it is, but they don't share your identity in some fundamental ways. The more you will go, Oh I'm not the fucking centre of the universe. Oh, whiteness is nothing special. It's nothing mainstream. It's nothing normal. So when you see people go, Why does that Stormtrooper have to be Black? And they get very angry that Star Wars has a Black character in it. They are suffering from the idea that whiteness is the norm. And it just isn't. It just isn't. It's, it's- and your human experience, your individual experience is as individual as anybody else's. So it is just as normal, to be a Black woman in a wheelchair as it is to be a white man who is not in a wheelchair who doesn't have to think about access to buildings. It's just as- it's just it's just a human experience that that's all it is. But we've got to change our diet or we will never realise it inside. Not deep at our core. And I don't I mean, I have some- I'm not a special white person. I'm still like, I'm- white people are rubbish at, this rubbish at this. So I'm not saying I'm better than any other white person. I have changed my diet somewhat. And I have an epiphany of how crap I am really, that's all it is. I'm not I'm not better. I just, I just have made some progress and not enough progress. Men are terrible at this. Men are terrible at this. But actually, if you're a woman, you know, men are terrible at this in general, you know that in your heart, usually, you kind of can tell by the way that men think the female experience is other, it isn't! There's more women than men.
Q&A
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Gemma Styles: Every week I’ll be asking my guest some of your questions, and the first comes in from Laiba:
Do you think sharing information on social media about feminism and women's rights is impactful?
Deborah Frances-White: Yeahhhh. Yeah! Imagine the women's, the Women's March, without social media. There’d have been six people there. I don't think we know what it was like before. Now, I can't really remember. I mean, but I know that when I was trying to find other feminists when I was, when I went to uni, it was hard. Because there wasn't a special magic box where you could put in ‘feminists, where are you?’ and they'd pop up, you'd have to ask people, that's awkward. But also, you know, if you want to get behind something, Amnesty [Amnesty International] are always pointing you to what you can sign and what you can share. It really does work. They get people who are in jail as political prisoners out of jail all the time. And they embarrass governments into- by shining a light on what they're doing- into shifting really bad human rights practices, into good ones. So if you think, I don't know, it's just I'm just a drop in the ocean here. Well, find Amnesty, or another group, that you you know, are confident are actually making a change, more than one, and add your drop to all those other drops, because lots of drops make a wave, in the ocean. So if you're feeling like What's all this doing, really, I'm just retweeting stuff, find an action you can get other people to do- and also you can WhatsApp people you can go, oh, would you mind signing this mum or you know, Katie, I think it's really important, explain to them why it's important to you. Because I think sometimes it's easier to shift the individuals in our life because they care about us. And if you explain why it's important to you, people will and then they'll start to notice that, look into it. And then they'll find things they're passionate about, and they'll ask other people. So that's what I would say, if you're feeling What's the point? Target individual people you think, whose minds you can change and then ask them to ask some people in their circle. If your mum's got a book group say, Would you mind doing a some kind of book group event where you all put in a fiver for Choose Love because I'm trying to raise some money to get some children some coats in refugee camps at the end of the year? Use your inner circle, it doesn't always have to be blasting it out to the to the whole world and feeling like no one's really listening.
Gemma Styles: Very good answer. Thank you very much. Next question is from Eduarda, and you kind of touched on this earlier, but she says:
Feminism is something that I've been trying to be more involved with and I have a two year old son. I would love to know how to introduce that topic kindly in his routine?
Deborah Frances-White: So again, I would say representation is key. If he is raised to think all colours are boys colours and all colours are girls colours, all stories need male and female heroes and even, you know, now gender, this generation Z, which your two year old is part of is so much more gender fluid as well, that whole generation they're not they're not having, the that, that generation- by the time they're done I reckon they'll have done away with gravity. [Gemma laughs] They're, they're incredible. So my friend, Samantha Baines has a story. She's, she's partially deaf and has a hearing aid and she has a story that has a deaf hero with a non binary friend. And so you can even introduce those ideas through books. But if you have a white child, and all the books in their nursery that you read to them in their bedroom are about white people do not be surprised when they think when they're older, that Black people and brown people are somehow different and other. If all their books have male heroes, if all the books are- and this is a real problem- books with boys on the cover are for girls and boys. Harry Potter is for everyone. Worst Witch? Girls. I was talking to Nikesh Shukla who wrote a book called Brown Baby which is coming out soon which is brilliant. It's about being a father to two little daughters who are brown girls in a white world, and he talks about how he goes out of his way to find books with brown female heroes, because he doesn't want his daughters thinking they're only a best friend on an adventure. So that's what I would say is- where, what stories are you telling them? And what stories are you making up for them? And, you know, what are you showing them? What are you taking them to? What are you, you know, all of that, all of that all of that, and, and questioning your own attitudes as well, learning with them. That's what I would say.
Gemma Styles: I think that is very good advice for sure. Next question is from Abby, who asks,
How can we counter online misogyny and trolling without giving the perpetrators attention?
Deborah Frances-White: Oof. I mean, it would be nice if the people that ran these platforms were as quick to close that down as they are to close down the sight of a female nipple.
Gemma Styles: Amen.
Deborah Frances-White: I mean, that'd be nice.
Gemma Styles: It would be, so nice.
Deborah Frances-White: Um, I tend to ignore? I say that, once or twice a year I take someone on, I always regret it. But I- that, when I don't regret it is when I'm funny, when I can out-funny them. So I tend to out- I like, I tend to be funny and then block. Because I think that emasculates them a bit and sort of makes them go, oh, that didn't make me feel good. And if it didn't make them feel good, they might stop doing it for a while. Maybe that, that's the best I've got. Honestly, they're probably not worth our time. Because generally, it's coming from a feeling, it must come from a feeling of lack of power. And this is a way I can exert power, because if you felt you had control and power over your own life and your own set, you would never need to do that. So I would say do anything you can not to give them the power that they're hoping for.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I quite agree.
Deborah Frances-White: Don’t let them change you. That's the thing. If they change your emotion- Oh this is good, this is actually good, Gemma. I- this is a technique I used to use in the street. It's less relevant now during lockdown, no one approaches me. But I remember once I was in a red dress, that may or may not have had a plunging neckline and I was sitting al fresco in Camden out the front of, beautiful summer day, waiting for a friend. And I was on the phone. And a man came up and went… And he started saying very lascivious things to me, to try and provoke me. I don't mean, he obviously didn't think I was going to- he was going to get me into bed because that's never worked. He was just wanting to change me. He was wanting either me to get angry with him…
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Deborah Frances-White: Or to get coy. And Ooh! But he wanted to change me.
Gemma Styles: Wanted to cause you some discomfort in some way.
Deborah Frances-White: Yes. Because that makes him feel powerful over a woman who at that point he saw as attractive. So he wasn't trying to sleep with me. He was trying to change me and have to take some control over a situation where maybe he'd seen me and he'd felt changed. So now he wants to take the control back by making me feel changed. Otherwise, it's an incomplete transaction in his mind otherwise. I've changed him. And he's now got nothing. He's walked away changed. So he wants to change me.
Gemma Styles: This is so interesting. I've never heard it put like that before.
Deborah Frances-White: I don't think I've ever put it that way before. So what I said was, I just said- Oh I’m just on the phone. And he was like, Yeah, yeah, but and he started saying all these lascivious things. And so I just stopped and went, [uninterested tone] ‘That's a terribly kind offer. And I'll keep it in mind...’ And I could see him crumble. And I use that quite a lot. Because it's like they've offered you Tupperware or Amway. And you [Gemma laughs] it's a it's a it's, it's it's a response to a cold caller. You've not changed me, I'm being polite to you. But it's really crushing. Because it's- I'm in the same state as when you met me, mate. And what a terribly kind offer you've just made me, by, in a very vulgar, lascivious way explaining graphic things that you want to do to me. How ‘bout I keep that in mind and get back to you, if I ever want to take you up on that offer? In heavy implication, I never will. [Gemma laughs] Because if it doesn't say Now you've upset me or now you’ve made me angry or now you've made me blush. It just goes I'm in exactly the same state, breezy. It's like a busy, it's I get very businesslike with them. And it and that that's the best thing you can do. Like you're just like, You haven't changed me at all mate. You haven't changed me at all. And it's crushing. And I do I do believe he he would have, I'm sure he's done it since, but he wouldn't have done it again that day.
Gemma Styles: Love that. That's good advice I think. Last question from Valentina, who says:
Here in Latin America we’re very strong about, quote, men can't be feminist, unquote. Because this is a women's only movement. I wanted to ask what you think about this. Is it different in the UK? Do you include men in feminism?
Deborah Frances-White: So I did a show with Nikesh Shukla the other day, who wrote, who compiled The Good Immigrant, created it. And he's a very brilliant man. And he said something like, I can't really be a feminist, I can only be an ally. So I know some people do feel like that, in the same way that, you know, can I be an activist for Black people? No, I can- that's it, it is, it is not my place. It's my place to make the changes that movement is asking of me, rightly. However, if men want to be feminists, I don't want to say to them, they're excluded. Because I don't know that it's that helpful. I think it depends what they're doing. Saying you're a feminist isn't very useful if you're a man, but if you are actually shifting the landscape… So if a man says, there’s only men men going to COP26, from the UK, I would like to give up my place and have a woman go. I'd say that's an act of feminism. Because he's shifting something. Or if he said, we need to include more people in this group that you know, well if we can only take seven people, three or four of them should be women. Sorry, but we've gotta, we've gotta shift it, then, then I would say that's an act of feminism, because it's shifting something. I've no real interest in men just putting feminist on their Hinge [a dating app] profile, if I'm completely honest. [Gemma laughs]
Gemma Styles: Ugh, no. I don't know. It's a difficult one. And I, personally, for me, I would find this a difficult one to answer because I think if you take what I would consider to be, you know, the base definition of feminism in that, you know, essentially someone- Who is a feminist? Somebody who believes in equality for people of different genders.
Deborah Frances-White: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Then, if you're, you know, a man who believes in equality, then yes, you are a feminist, but I think you're quite right, it depends on what arena you're in. Yeah, I mean, I would say yes, men can be feminists, but just because you are a feminist, that doesn't mean you're necessarily, I don't know, an active feminist person.
Deborah Frances-White: I would say you have, I would say, you have to be active to be a feminist.
Gemma Styles: Yes, that makes much more sense.
Deborah Frances-White: And I would say, and I’d go further, and say, a woman or a person of minority gender doesn't have to be because they may be so boxed in by the power structures, that they do not have room for movement safely. If you cannot safely fight, it is not your responsibility- it could be your choice to put yourself in danger, as many women have, have done in history and continue to do so. But I don't think it is your responsibility to make yourself vulnerable to violence, either structure or physical. To make a change, honestly, I don't. I think some people can and will. And I am admiring of that, and grateful for that. But I think there are many women and girls and people of minority genders in the world who cannot safely do that. And they are feminists inside because they are desperate for this change. And they do what they can when they can, and they do not do- and some people cannot do anything because they're in such terrible situations, and they're just trying to survive. That doesn't make them not feminists. If you have power, or influence, even over your tiny patch, because it in, in the place that you're in, you, a man might not have power over more powerful men and women but he might have power over a less powerful woman, and he does not seek to close that power gap, then I would say he is not a feminist. So I would say a man cannot be a feminist unless he does what he can when he can. And that's, you know, I'm not asking men to be perfect feminists, you know, they'll always be times when human beings will be selfish. But I would say he should be actively looking to make changes. And I think if we say to men, you're not allowed in our club, secret club, get out. They may not be motivated to work with us to make the changes. Bridget Christie always says it's not women's job to solve sexism. And I would go further and say it's not Black people or brown people's job to to fix racism. Like ultimately, all you can do is make a, make a demand but it's not, you're not the problem. So you can't change the behaviour of the people whose problem it is. They need to do that. So I would suggest that we need men on our team and if they want to call themselves feminists then I don't think we can afford at this point to say they're not allowed in our clubhouse.
recommendations
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Gemma Styles: Before you go I have three things I ask of every guest and that’s if listeners want to learn more about what we’ve talked about today, can you give us something to read, something to listen to, and something to watch please?
Deborah Frances-White: Yes, so firstly, I already mentioned Toni Morrison. Read all and any Toni Morrison. Song of Solomon is a brilliant, brilliant novel. Consume more fiction. I think we're always going, Oh, please let us tell a woman or a Black person or someone tell us how to think and what to do. So we're always buying like manuals, you know, like when Black, the Black Lives Matter came to a boiling point and white people were like ‘I'm doing the reading!’ And it is of course important to read those books and definitely read Why I'm No Longer Talking to White People About Race by Reni Eddo-Lodge, definitely do read that. But also just think about the fiction that you're reading. And if you're not a reader? That's okay. You book, audiobooks are brilliant, you don't have to sit and read you can be you know, popping the washing on and listening to an audiobook. It's the same. So can everyone listening to this download, if they're not a reader, Toni Morrison Song of Solomon. You'll really- because she reads it herself on the audiobook. She's a- she's aaaamazing. So read more fiction, from the point of view of people who do not share identities with, all of their identities with, you. Also Sandi Toksvig’s almanac, Toksvig’s Almanac: An Eclectic Meander Through the Historical Year. This is my new jam, because as of next year, you know, when you- what do you do the first thing when you wake up, what do you reach for?
Gemma Styles: My phone?
Deborah Frances-White: Yes! And we all start scrolling and it’s so bad for your brain. So next year, you are going to, I'm going to send you one of these, you are going to reach for instead of your phone Toksvig’s Almanac. And you open it to the date, and it will tell you an amazing thing. Now it says it's eclectic, but on the inside, all of the things are about women. Because normally when things are eclectic, they're all about men. And we're doing a project with Sandy next year, that what we have to do is try and make Wikipedia more representative because at the moment, it's like crazy, it's 80% male or something like that.
Gemma Styles: Is it really?
Deborah Frances-White: Yeah, yeah. So we're going to do a project with her where we expand Wikipedia. And if you've got women you'd like to be in Sandy's next almanac. You're going to hashtag #sandicandi. S-A-N-D-I, C-A-N-D-I, because candi’s for candidate, candidate for Sandi's almanac, #sandicandi.
Gemma Styles: Understood.
Deborah Frances-White: And you are going to suggest women for her next almanac and women or people of minority genders for her next almanac. So that's a fun thing to read if you're thinking I'm not someone who's going to sit down and read an enormous novel or a book or I've got so many books I've already bought sitting by my bed I haven't read. This is a really lovely, quick one quick, lovely little thing every day.
Gemma Styles: Love that one. I'm going to be looking for some Sandi Candi now.
Deborah Frances-White: The Sandy Candi!
Gemma Styles: Umm, and then I mean, we've just mentioned audiobooks, but is there's something other than that you would recommend us to listen to?
Deborah Frances-White: Ah, yes. Baratunde Thurston: How to Citizen is a podcast, which is about shifting our narrative around, or our understanding around how things have changed to how things are done and how you can get involved. I had, I was lucky enough to have Baratunde on the podcast. He is a genius, that man, he's a comedian. He's a performer and he is just a thinker and an activist and he is somebody who's just you absolutely need to hear what he's saying at the moment. Podcast. Baratunde Thurston. How to Citizen.
Gemma Styles: Perfect. And then lastly, what have we not done? Lastly, something to watch, please?
Deborah Frances-White: In my never ending quest to get people to rethink the fiction they consume. Insecure, is a brilliant, half hour comedy, it’s a bit Sex and the City feel. But an all Black cast, African-American cast, Issa Rae, who's a brilliant comedian, wrote and stars in it. And Unorthodox on Netflix is something that will challenge your ideas around patriarchal spaces that are designed to control- they’re designed to be controlled entirely by men, but how men and women both end up being controlled by them, but how women suffer more and it was written by someone who had actually experienced this. So I would recommend you watch both of those.
outro
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Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening to Good Influence and thank you to Deborah for joining me. If you’ve enjoyed the episode please take a minute to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player or wherever you’re listening, and if you’re feeling generous rate and review too. It’s really appreciated and helps others find the podcast. See you next week!