S01E12 Transcript: Zoe Sugg on Anxiety and Life Online
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intro
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Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who will help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about anxiety and life online; how social media has changed in the last decade, the pros and cons of speaking openly about mental health, and how we're all at least a little bit nosy when it comes to other people's lives.
So joining me this week is Zoe Sugg. Zoe is a vlogger, influencer, author, and businesswoman, and you might know her better as Zoella. Zoe was one of the original YouTubers, and has been making and sharing content online for the past 12 years, she's amassed over 25 million followers and subscribers across YouTube and social media platforms. Zoe's spoken openly about her own experience of anxiety and panic attacks online for years now, including as an ambassador for the charity Mind, and more recently helped to establish the Digital Detox Day event, encouraging people to evaluate their relationship with social media and it’s effects on mental health.
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Zoe Sugg: I'm really worried that Nala is going to be snoring through this whole thing. I keep nudging her to be like, stop snoring! So if you hear it, please let me know. And I'll just give her a little nudge.
Gemma Styles: I mean, I feel like having a few dog snores on is fine by me. [Zoe laughs]
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discussion
Gemma Styles: I think you were talking about anxiety and mental health online before the conversation had kind of become slightly more mainstream as it is now. Can you remember, like, how long have you been talking about anxiety online?
Zoe Sugg: So I think briefly I think I wrote a blog post before I did a video because that felt so much more safe. And I'd been kind of writing how I'd felt and how those anxious feelings were for me for quite a while because I didn't- like you say there weren't really that many people talking about it that I could find. So it felt like something that was only happening to me. And for a really long time, I just thought I was an anomaly and that I was the odd one out. So then I went to my doctor and I discovered more about it. And I found information on websites, such as Mind and things like that. And I found that so helpful, because all of a sudden, I was like, it's not just me, this is an actual thing that many people experience. And immediately once my audience had started growing, I felt like it was important for me to share that information for other people who might have felt similar to me where it was a bit like… What do I do? How do I navigate this? Is it just me that feels like this? And because it was hard for me to find those people. I thought maybe even if I just helped one person by talking about this, then great, I feel like I've done my job, you know. So I think I started with a blog post. And then in 2013, I did a video about it. Because it's very easy online and on social media to paint your life in a certain way. We're all very good at showing the highlight reel and the best bits and especially when my career online started growing, and I started getting all these amazing opportunities. It just looked like I had the best life ever. And so many of my comments were like, Oh my God, you're so lucky, like you're living the most perfect life, I would do anything to have your life. And of course, I was extremely lucky. And I was so privileged to be in the position that I was in and enjoying this new, exciting career. But what a lot of people didn't realise is, you know, standing up on that stage in front of 1000s of people, there was about three panic attacks before it, and at least two after it, and I would spend the rest of the day in bed because of my mental health. And I felt like it was really important for me to share that aspect of my life because I didn't want people to, to watch my videos and think like, Oh, she has it all or there's absolutely nothing that kind of is worrying her or troubling her in any sense. So I think for me, I wanted to help others feel less alone. And I also wanted people to recognise that with all the amazing things. There were also things that I was struggling with as well. So yeah, that was really scary doing that at the time.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I bet. I feel like with the amount of time that you've been online, and also, it's- because you've had such a big audience for a long time, I think it's kind of like, it's easy to forget that when you started talking about these things, you know it, it wasn't as done. And also I feel like in that amount of time, things have changed quite a lot. And the things people are looking for from online figures in terms of like, authenticity now, like, people being authentic online is now sort of, you know, people's number one priority. But again, like when you would have started doing this and kind of saying, you know, I'm gonna show you these parts of my life that aren't as glossy as you think they might be. People just weren't doing that very much. And I think it's like, I think it's really great that you did. But I also think it's, it's really hard now, I wonder if you agree, because you still get kind of caught in the middle of that conversation.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: And you'll either get people who, you know, if you don't show enough grit in anything that you do online, then you get people who were like, Oh, it's so inauthentic. She's pretending everything's perfect. Like, that can't be true. But if you do say anything is wrong, then people like, Oh, well, it's not brain surgery, is it, your job? Like, there's really no way to win.
Zoe Sugg: It's so hard to juggle, like, so hard. And it was certainly a lot easier years ago. I think now social media is so- it's such a key part of how people socialise. Whereas, years and years ago, when I first started this, it was just an alternative way of socialising, like everything else was still very human to human. And, you know, you had your friends, and you did everything, mostly in real life. And what you posted online, was kind of like, Oh, well, that's just what she's posting online. But now I feel like it's sort of flipped a bit where we probably share equal parts of our lives online, as we do with our friends and our family in real life, especially in the last year, because it's been so hard to have those real life interactions. And I think the way in which people use social media has changed, because for years, people have been able to kind of have their own opinions and have their own voices and post what they want. And over time, that has become a little bit more glossy, and people have been slightly more curated, or they'll use their Instagram, for fashion. So they don't necessarily show personal aspects of their lives. But then someone else could come along and say, Well, this isn't, you're not being real, you're not being yourself.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Zoe Sugg: And it's so hard, because then you could, you could share something that's really real and raw, and really vulnerable. And that's just opening yourself up to the most amount of criticism. And you have no idea what someone's gonna say back to you. And that's the stuff that's so much harder to move past. Like, sometimes it's easier to just deal with those moments in your real life than to share it with millions of people. And you have no idea what kind of reaction you'll get. Which is so scary.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. Because I can imagine, like the criticism of people saying like, Oh, you know, she makes everything look like it's so perfect. I can imagine that kind of criticism is a lot easier to deal with than people criticising you for talking about something really personal, which then is going to put people off.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, 100%. 100%. Because you almost feel like, you know, with with social media, now, it's good to set boundaries, you know, what it is that you're happy to share what it is that you're not happy to share? Like, I still don't really ever see. Can you imagine like just going on your Instagram stories and seeing a couple having like a blazing row stories? Like you just don't see it?
Gemma Styles: I mean, no, but then also, like, Can you imagine being the couple who is having a blazing row and putting it on Instagram? I feel like that's almost worse, like, it is. You're totally right. Like, there are things that we're never gonna see on Instagram. I mean, maybe some people do, I don't know but, like, I just would never because you're kind of it is that thing where that's real life, and also nobody else's business.
Zoe Sugg: It's so true. It's so true. And also, I feel like in moments like that, that are very real or that are very personal to people. The last thing you think about doing is sharing something to show your authenticity, like you're not, you're not going to be having a really, really awful day where all you're doing is crying in bed, and naturally think to reach for your phone. And like share that with people. It's it's very, very different to something that you're excited about and that you're happy about sharing.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I've thought this before actually because I know- and I don't know whether it is just people being different on you know, quite a standard level like everyone is different in the way they react to things. But like, I see, like a lot of people who, to be fair, some people will kind of make videos and will purposely, like capture things for the purpose of like, you know, educating people or having a bit of camaraderie with people. But like, I feel like when people are able to go back through their camera roll and find a bunch of examples of like pictures of them crying. And then you're like, they've got, you know, there's just so much like, raw reality for them to share and I'm just not that kind of person. Like, I've never been in floods of tears and thought, let me just take a picture of my face. [Zoe laughs] I don't recall ever thinking to do that, you know?
Zoe Sugg: I think the only time I've ever done that is when I sent it to like my friend who was like, how are you? And I was like, Well, I'm currently just crying. [Gemma laughs] So here's that.
Gemma Styles: Current snapshot for you, tells you all you need to know.
Zoe Sugg: [laughs] Exactly, exactly.
Gemma Styles: I wonder if I’ve ever done that.
Zoe Sugg: I think some people are very, like, I definitely think everyone will have their own individual boundaries. And I do respect a lot of people, like a lot of people I follow who would come on stories and be that vulnerable and share something that's really getting them down. And I have so much respect for them. Because I just, I can only imagine how terrifying that is. And also, by doing that you you are in some ways, helping others. It's really, it's such a catch 22. Because you, you just you know that what they're doing is, is basically either for them to feel better to get that community response, and to share something that's really getting them down, which is always such a great thing to do. And I think for a lot of people as well, social media is that space where they feel like they can share. So I totally get that aspect of it as well. And I do just think like you are so brave whenever I see someone doing that, because because I know I just could never. I did it once I cried in a YouTube video. In 2014. I think I was just having a day where everything was just getting a bit much. And I was like, I'm gonna vlog this because I think I was daily vlogging at the time, and I just thought, well, this is my day. Like, there's no point me trying to gloss over it. There's no point me missing a day. This just is what it is. And I remember at the time, the response was so positive, largely, and it was so lovely getting that feedback and feeling like, yeah, this community, they've got my back, they know me so well. This is so nice. It's like, it's like sharing a problem. But with like 1000s of friends, and you just feel so much better for it. But then, on the other hand, you have that 5% of people that are like, ooh, let's knock her while she's down. Like, why are you sharing this? So since then, I think I think I left up for like a week. And then I was like, No, I don't feel comfortable with that being there anymore. And I removed it. And since then I've never, I've never done anything similar to that.
Gemma Styles: It's hard, isn't it though? Because then, and I mean, and this is something people know. It is, you know, you could have 1000 positive comments and three negative ones. And it's the three negative ones that you're going to read over and over and remember.
Zoe Sugg: Oh, yeah, yeah, someone once described it to me, like when you paint your wall, and there's just one little chip right in the middle. And when you look at the wall, even though the rest of the wall looks amazing, you just zone in on that tiny bit. That just doesn't look quite right. And I'm like that is just the best analogy.
Gemma Styles: That is really good. I kind of love that actually. Because I feel like that's something that I have said to myself before it like during actual projects and decorating things. [Zoe laughs] And kind of like look at the whole wall and you're like all I can see is that tiny rough bit and then I say to myself all the time I'm like, but it's fine, because you'll live with it for a few weeks, and you'll stop noticing it. And I feel like that's actually quite a good way to approach the online stuff.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, it's so true. Like it really goes in there for a bit and then slowly you start to forget it and then slowly it doesn't matter. And then you're like, I don't even remember what what that comment was now.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, like that's just part of the wall now, that’s my house!
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Do you think that part of how we've gotten to a place where people expect so much, so much information from people has maybe come from something like you were saying about kind of daily vlogging? Because I feel like social media has gone from a place of, if I think back to the earlier days of Instagram, you would you would kind of share like very one off pictures of like, something nice you'd eaten or like a nice sunset or something that you’d seen. Not that we don't ever share these things now, but it was very kind of like, Oh, you know, here's something that stood out from my week. And now the way that a lot of people use Instagram, which is something that I just can't do, because I find it too stressful is as kind of like a daily diary. Do you think that kind of use of social media is maybe something that evolved from the kind of daily vlog where we've gotten very used to seeing the day to day like ins and outs of people's lives?
Zoe Sugg: Definitely, I think specifically for me as well, because it was something that I started so long ago and turned into a career, I felt that I needed to continue to do that. I have people that are invested in not just what it is I'm talking about, but where I shop, or who I'm friends with, or, you know, so many different little personal aspects of my life, which I didn't set out for that to happen. But that's just naturally what happened over the years. But also, I think, with things like Keeping Up With The Kardashians, and there was just a phase where reality TV was just the most watched type of content, because it was something that we'd never really had before being able to watch people living out their lives, whether they were super extravagant, or whether it was, you know, a vlogger, with 1000 subscribers on YouTube was just, it was such like a kind of fly on the wall. And it was so new and exciting, and something so different, and it felt so… I guess for me, when I would watch daily vloggers it felt quite comforting to watch somebody else just living out their life and their kind of daily routines and things because I dunno, I just I really just am quite a naturally nosy person. And I really like watching things like that. And I get really obsessive over like, Oh my god, what's this person doing today? And where do they shop and, like, oh what mac and cheese is that that they've bought? That looks delicious, like I’ll have to add that to my basket next time I go out. And I think also it enabled people to have those kind of different connections with actors, actresses, and celebrities that otherwise might have only ever been talked about in magazines or in tabloids. And now all of a sudden, you can follow them. And you can see parts of their lives that you've never seen before. And you can see interactions they have with each other and so many parts about it that just draw you in and make you want to keep, keep following, keep refreshing, keep you know, scrolling through. And also, I think a large part of it is that there's now so many places to post. So me and Alfie were literally talking about this the other day that Instagram we just used to post like you say, a photo, like once a week, and it would be of like a cupcake that I ate or like you said a sunset or something that wasn't, you know, it was like an extension, it wasn't the sole place you'd post and now you've got things like stories and you've got reels, and you've got IGTV, and you've got TikTok and you've got all these places where I should imagine quite a lot of people, especially, you know, in a more kind of influencer space, where you are creating content, and that's part of your job probably feel like they need to be ticking all those boxes and be across all of those platforms. So without even realising it. You're sharing so much more of your life because you have so many places to put it.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. I feel like that's, that's certainly something I've felt before. And it is sometimes when new things comes out. But even just in general, I feel like every so often you kind of take stock and think, you know, what, what am I doing? Am I doing a good job at this whole, like, online thing? And like, Am I doing enough? Am I being you know, consistent with things like should I be posting more stuff, and every so often I go through this and I'm like, I need I just need to post more and I need to you know, be more strict with it and have more of a plan and stick to more of a schedule. And I'm just rubbish at doing that because I don't… I am not good at ou know, the sharing the little details of my life in and out. And every so often I might jump on the stories and like put something on like that. But it, I find it quite unnatural in- it would be really unnatural for me to do that. So even when, you know I kind of think about things like am I not being authentic enough? Because I'm not sharing enough like should I be sharing more? But then actually that really doesn't fit my personality to be someone who every day tells you I've had for lunch, you know what I mean?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, can you imagine just every day you're posting like 20 stories like Hey guys! Good morning!
Gemma Styles: Can you imagine me doing that? I can’t at all!
Zoe Sugg: [laughing] No! But I think honestly, with social media, it's about what you feel comfortable with. And so often, when you look at like a follower number, like Do you ever feel like a responsibility? Because you look at how many people are following you? And I kind of, I almost feel like people are waiting, which is what kind of makes me overthink what I'm posting.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, yeah, I definitely. Definitely agree with that.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: And like it's, yeah, it's I mean, it's hard to imagine anyway, when you look at like, a big number of people. But yeah, just knowing how many eyes are going to be on every single word that you've said, or like, every pixel of a picture you've posted? It does. It does feel a bit like jumping off a cliff sometimes.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, it really does. Especially if you haven't done it for a while. I always find if I have a little bit of a digital detox. And I'm like, Oh, I should probably, you know, like reemerge now. I'm like, how do I do this? Why do I feel so weird about this every time? I've literally been doing this for 12 years! And whenever I take a break, I still panic about coming back or What am I going to say? Or do I still have interesting things to say 12 years on like, I just feel like I've run out of content. I've been doing it for so long. And every time I say that, thankfully, I have a really lovely loyal audience of people, some that have been there the whole time, and some that are fairly new. And they're like, just keep talking about anything we don't we didn't really don't mind. But I think sometimes I just get so in my own head. And I start overthinking everything. And that's when it becomes much, much harder.
Gemma Styles: For sure. And I think I mean, from my point of view, I think then you're totally right. And I do the same thing. Like if you've had a couple of weeks off, you know, posting on your Instagram grid or whatever, or- I've definitely gone longer than a couple of weeks before. You do you think about when you come back, and it's suddenly like that first post back or like, the next thing you post, is you kind of- or I’ve felt like you need to, like, redefine who you are on that platform. And like that post has to be quite like representative of you.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Like, if people haven’t heard from you for a while. It's like okay, well, what am I going to- What am I going to walk back into this room and say? Like, I haven't seen these people in ages, and I'm going to come back, they're going to expect some kind of story. And like, I haven't really got one to tell them… it’s a weird kind of pressure.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, it's so true. It's almost like you feel like you have to have something really poignant to say. And sometimes I just don't sometimes I just want to be like, Hi. [laughing]
Gemma Styles: I mean, we’re just people, though! Yeah.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, I know. It's so true. So true.
Gemma Styles: I mean, you just mentioned having a bit of a digital detox every now and then. Which leads me to ask you about Digital Detox Day, which is an event that you have organised in the past or co-organised, I should say.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Could you tell me a bit about how that came about?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah. So I’d started meetings with Lush and a company called I Am Whole who do a lot of campaigning for mental health. And the three of us all got together, because we're all very passionate about mental health, we're very passionate about how it's growing and changing, and how so many people now feel so much more open to discussing how they feel, and you know, the struggles that they're going through, which is incredible. Because, you know, back in 2013, when I did my video, there was a lot of people sort of saying, Oh, well, do you not just think loads of people are saying they're anxious? Because it's like a trend? And I was like, No, I think they're just saying it because they feel like they can. I feel I feel like more and more people are talking about it, because they feel like they can talk about it not because they're all just pretending they've got it because they think it's fashionable. So we were having a lot of conversations about how we could help, how we could raise money and how we can kind of put some awareness out there. And one of the things that we always kept coming back to was how social media has an effect on mental health and specific areas of that. So things like comparison, body image, anxiety, depression, sleeplessness, loneliness, human connection, like there's so many different aspects of our mental health that can link in with social media. And I've noticed specifically, over the years, how much more of an effect that it is having on people, so whether that's my friends, my colleagues, or people in my DMs, even, or other people that I follow. It's just so apparent that as time has gone on, and social media has become so much bigger, you can see where it's having more of a negative impact on people's mental health. And so we decided to focus on that. So we created a day called Digital Detox Day, which was the fifth of September last year, where we basically just tried to encourage everybody to take 24 hours off social media. And although I've definitely done digital detoxes in my time, I'm still a bit of a like silent scroller. So I just find that my thumb goes to the app, I open it, I scroll through, I flick through a couple of people's stories, and then I'll click off it. So even though I've done digital detoxes, where I might not have posted something myself, I very rarely just put my phone down, and don't look at it. So even for me, I thought, Oh, this is gonna be so easy. Like, I can't wait, bring it on. My thumb, I had to remove the app from my phone, I had to move it because my thumb just automatically went to the Instagram app to open it. And I was like, This is harder than I thought. Like, there is some serious like addiction going on here.
Gemma Styles: It's so true, like, so I did the digital detox.
Zoe Sugg: Yes!
Gemma Styles: I didn't completely put my phone in a drawer, but I had the full day off… what did I do again, social media and other kind of like- I still had like my phone, and texts basically but not like any of the other things that you mess around with. But agreed, my thumb like multiple times in the day went and just automatically clicked on Instagram. And then I went Ooh, no! And I think like, what? And then I think I even like, getting on towards the end of the day, I clicked on it. And didn't remember that I wasn't supposed to be doing it and then liked my friend Aimee's picture, and I was like, Oh, no, I'm not supposed to be doing it! [Zoe laughs] So I like unliked it again and backed out of the room like- I was never here.
Zoe Sugg: [laughing] That’s so funny. I feel like so many people did that. We actually asked people afterwards, like, how did you find it? And it was, it was really quite sad reading the responses, because so many people said they just could not do it. They said I tried and I couldn't do it. I felt so weird not having that connection. And I do think it depends what you use social media for. So for a lot of people who were us- who use social media to make new friends that might not necessarily live anywhere near them, or like they have those groups of people that they message every day. And I think I do think it was a slightly younger demographic that struggled more which I, which we found very interesting. I would say sort of my age, people were much more into it. And I do wonder whether that's because we have kind of lived a life before social media was this like instant connection?
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Zoe Sugg: And yeah, I think anyone like my mum's age, it was just easy. [laughs] She was like, I just put my phone in a drawer. I was like, Well, I don't know, that's very interesting. Like, the stats were just very interesting. Like, I think, yeah, it was, it was sad to see how many people struggled and who- the people that really wanted to do it, and was just like, I'm so sorry, I just could not do it. I felt anxious, not having my phone. And I was like that, that is so unbelievably sad. But also so worrying that we can have this you know, connection with our devices that is so strong, we actually don't really know what to do without it.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's very true, I think what you say about, you know, if you are younger, and you've grown up on social media, and have never not had it, then the idea actually, I suppose of doing a detox of it. It's not like going back to something that you used to know. And going back to, you know, a simpler time before everyone was on Instagram. [both laugh]
Zoe Sugg: The Nokia 3310. [laughs]
Gemma Styles: Exactly! Like, it's not like going back to something that's recognisable to you. It's actually asking people to do a whole new thing that they've never experienced, which Yeah, I guess is a lot harder.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah. And also that that demographic are much more reliant on things like Snapchat, and that's how they communicate. Whereas, you know, I'm much more of a like phone call, voice note, Whatsapp kind of girl, like, I don't need social media, to contact people around me. Whereas I feel like, there was so many people saying, I couldn't not speak to my friends. And I was like, What do you mean? Like, can't you ring your friends?
Gemma Styles: Yeah, that's true as well. Okay. Yeah. I mean, I think we're like, around the same age and I would definitely be the same, like I don't- I mean, I will occasionally but then you kind of realise you're doing it. Like, I don't generally use social media channels to talk to my actual friends who I know in real life.
Zoe Sugg: No, no I don’t, I don’t.
Gemma Styles: Again, I'd say like, it'll happen every so often. And like, you know, a friend, we’ll like reply to each other's Instagram stories or whatever, and then just start chatting under that reply. And then after a little while, somebody will be like, should we move to text like, this is really weird. It's really weird that we're talking to each other on Instagram instead of a normal phone channel.
Zoe Sugg: It's so true. So true. And also that whole- another thing that I find quite scary about social media and how much we’re kind of relying on it, is when it comes to things like your friends and your family and people, you know, in real life, where and I've done it before, I'm guilty of this, sometimes I will kind of flick through their stories and be like, Oh, that's nice. Like, they're having a really nice day, and they've just gone out and they've just done that. Then I'm like, Oh, I need to actually reach out to my friend and actually have a conversation with them and ask them how they are because we get so used to catching up with people through watching what they're posting. Which if you think about it, it's actually so weird. But, it's just remembering to actually have those real life interactions. And what you see on online is not the full picture. So yeah, it's really important to remember that when you're looking at your mate, who looks like they're having the best day ever, that could just not actually be what's going on.
Gemma Styles: That's so true. And I think I'm probably really bad at doing that, like I will, I would do that thing of kind of, like, see my friend stories and be like, Oh, well, you know, they're out somewhere, or they're with their sister or like with another friend or something. And I'm like, Oh, well, they're too busy to talk to me then or like, Oh, no, they're fine, or whatever. And actually, yeah, you're totally right. Like you don't know, everything that was going on that day, you still need to actually actually talk to your friends.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah. [laughs]
Gemma Styles: Something I wanted to ask you about, because from a complete like outsider's perspective, something that I really admire about how you've used social media kind of, if that makes sense, how you've how you've decided how to use online channels, I think is kind of what I'm getting at. So you were known for the longest time under Zoella, which, of course, now is a platform that you still have, and like is the business that you've built. But, you know, comparatively recently, you changed things up a bit and decided that you know, your Instagram, for example, you're not Zoella anymore. You are Zoe and Zoella is your platform.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: I'd love to understand a little bit more about you know, like, what went into that decision, because as somebody who, you know, does a lot of stuff on social media, I can imagine that taking a very successful business and making quite a big change to it must have been a really big decision?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, definitely. And I think ultimately, the decision was made purely because of my mental health and how much I was struggling to, I guess, form my own identity that wasn't just Zoella. And I think, you know, it started off as my blog name. I think one of my friends like, used to call me it in school. And I was like, oh, what should I call my blog? I don't know this will do. But you know, I would always sign things off Zoe. And then it just kind of morphed into me. And that wasn't really what I'd set out for it to do. So I would arrive on a shoot and everyone would be like, Oh, Zoella, do you mind doing this? And I think I just kind of was like, Okay, well, that's, that's my name now I guess! Like, that's just, this is the way it goes. And that's what people know me as. So I just need to, I guess that's just, that's, it's like, my alter ego is like, that's just my online name. And that's just what I'll always be now. And then I think when I hit a certain age, and I started having a bit of an identity crisis, and I was like, Who am I? And what is my channel? What content do I create? And who are my audience and I do think it's really important when you've been doing something for so long, no matter what it is, especially if it's something creative, I think it's so important to reevaluate. And I wasn't doing that. So I was just kind of going with the flow. Because in this career, which wasn't a career that I ever knew anything about that you did, it didn't really exist before. It was all so new and a lot of people were just taking each day as it came and just seeing what happened. And taking any opportunity that came up and kind of just going with the flow. And I think I just did that for a really long time. And it didn't ever feel like I could take control of that myself and just sort of sit back and go, what is it that I really want? And what is it that I- will make me feel better about this or… and I think it was only really as I was getting slightly older when I was doing more kind of behind the scenes of business stuff… Putting Zoella on something felt like it was coming from me, but actually sometimes that was a product range that had had hundreds of people's involvement and years of meetings and it just felt weird it being like Zoella and it feeling like that's just me. So I made the decision to split it purely because also, I felt like, what I was doing was taking two kind of paths anyway, I was working more on businesses and venturing outside of creating content, but my content was still very me-based. And those two things felt so different, but they were so combined in a way. So I was like, okay, Zoe is the is the content. And Zoe is the person. And Zoe is, you know, behind all the business. And Zoella, which is, how my blog started, and how this whole thing started, can be all of the kind of more business side of it. And that made total sense to me. And even just making that separation in a meeting once where I was like, Oh, my God, like, this makes total sense. I instantly just felt so much better about the whole thing. And then we decided to split the socials out. And obviously, it takes a bit of time for people to understand that the Zoella account is, you know, is a hub of lots of different content that we're creating as a team. And my Instagram account is me. And I always knew it would take a while for those two things to fully separate, because they'd been fused together for so long. But I think just mentally having that distinction between the two things really helped me in in that sense. So that was the kind of backstory to it.
Gemma Styles: That's really good. And do you think it's given you more freedom to talk about different topics on the Zoella platform that maybe aren't you know, firsthand from you, but just to give people a platform?
Zoe Sugg: 100%. Everything I've ever created or talked about, or made videos on or written about has been things I'm passionate about, things I love, things I want to share. And I got to a point where I was like, I have so many things that I want to share. And so I have such a large audience that I'm so lucky to have built up over the years, I want to be able to help more of those people. And I'm not an expert in every field, even if I'm really interested in something, I'm not always going to be the best person to talk about it. And we came to the realisation that, I mean, I hadn't written on my blog for a really long time, because I was trying to make YouTube videos, start businesses and do a blog and do Instagram, and I was trying to be everywhere. And that was just way too hard. I'm really bad at juggling different social medias, I feel like I can do one really well, and all the others just get like thrown to the side. So my blog was sort of just left a bit. And then we were like, this would just be the perfect place to get new voices, create new exciting content that I'm still really passionate about and that still are huge interests to me, and interests to a lot of the audience that I've that I've luckily built over the years. And we can create a community there and hopefully inspire and help people in doing that. And it's been so fun being able to work on that.
Gemma Styles: That's really nice that you've kind of been able to give the Zoella name a kind of like new lease of life for you like under its under its new title.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: When you look back across all the different things you've done, because you have got one of those like very, what I would call like modern multi hyphenate, to use Emma Gannon’s term, where you’ve, you know, got your finger in a lot of different pies.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Are there any particular things that have like stood out to you over the years? Or kind of how do you feel about that? Because it's kind of similar to the way that I work at the moment. And I kind of- I really enjoy having the freedom to work in different areas but it always makes me like wonder about the future and be like, Am I just going to stumble on one thing? That's going to be the thing that I decide that I love the most? And then that's going to be the one thing I pursue, or am I always going to be kind of dotted around like this, like, how do you feel about that?
Zoe Sugg: I don't know, I guess in in a similar way to you, like just so lucky that I'm able to try new things, and that new opportunities will come up that I might not have even considered but might think, Oh my gosh, that's such a good idea. Or I'd love to try that. There will also be things that I've just thought no, that's really not in in my remit at all. And that's like, as someone with anxiety I'm like, I have a limit of what I would push myself to try and do. And over the years, I've worked out what that limit is, I think for a very long time I was just doing as much as I could because I didn't know how long this would last and that was very consuming, I think. I just, I felt like I need to take all these opportunities, and I need to do as much as I can. Because six months from now, YouTube just might not be a platform that people are interested in. And then I think once I realised that, okay, this, this isn't like something that I need to be embracing right here, right now, this seems to be lasting a bit longer. I think I slowed down in my like, grabbing everything that I could grab and trying everything out. And now I just decide kind of what projects and things that interest me but purely based on whether I think I'll have a really good time doing it. I'm a very creative person. So anything where I feel like I can really like get creative with something will always be something that I find like more passionate. So writing books, for example, I love because it's so like, you can just be in your own world. And although there's things like deadlines, and you've got your editor being like, hey, have you got that, have you got that final, that final manuscript, it's, you're, you're able to be creative at your own pace, however you want to do it. And I think something like that I've really, really enjoyed but also on more kind of creative product side of stuff. I've really, really enjoyed that as well. But honestly, just so many things that I've been lucky enough to do. I've just been like, wow, that was cool.
Gemma Styles: That is really good. I think it's, it's nice to like, look back over stuff. I think, I think the way that things move so quickly now. And you know, people quite often don't remember further back than like, that top nine grid on Instagram when you haven’t scrolled back any further.
Zoe Sugg: Oh yeah!
Gemma Styles: Like, I think it's nice to look back and actually remember different projects you've done and like, reflect on how you’ve got to where you are.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, definitely.
Gemma Styles: The only other thing that I wanted to ask you about because I feel like as somebody who talks about mental health online, me and you, in that respect, something that I've kind of been thinking about at the moment where people… Where, to a certain extent, the culture and the conversation around mental health has improved. And people are willing to accept mental health conditions a bit more and have more sympathy or more empathy, if more people are kind of experiencing them. I feel like the next bit of progress that we need to make is people being accepting of the kind of side effects of those mental health issues. Because I kind of feel like at the moment, some people are at that point where they're quite willing to say, Oh, you're suffering from anxiety? That must be really hard for you, like, can I support you, I accept what you're saying. And, you know, I sympathise with what you're going through. But as soon as any of those mental illnesses or mental health conditions have any, like actual symptoms, or consequences, or make things mildly inconvenient for anyone else, it's suddenly kind of like, well, I said, I accepted it, are you not fine now?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Like, I have just been thinking a lot about, you know, how, where do we… Where do we go from here in terms of, in terms of the mental health conversation in general, and, you know, making- actually making it easier for people to give themselves that space? And that's a very long rambling question. But I mean, kind of, I'm thinking of it in the way that you have, you know, made a big change in your business for the sake of your mental health.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: And that's something that's really great and you must have had, you know, like, a supportive team around you.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Is there anything that you think we can do to kind of help get there, the next step and kind of help people understand how to be accommodating as well as how to be sympathetic?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah. So that is a very good question. Because sometimes I’ll think, you know, like, I feel like, no one understands that this isn't just a moment in time, like it's not- Anxiety isn't just the panic attack that happens. It's the build up of that, it's the the day after that, it's the hoping that you're not going to have another one. It's constant. And there was one point in my life where I, thankfully, I'm in a very fortunate position that I'm able to have a therapist and I pay for that myself. And she once said to me, I think I said to her once, like, why am I falling asleep at 6pm? Like I'm exhausted and she was like, because 85% of the day, you are thinking anxious thoughts, or you're worrying about something or you're just trying to get to the next moment, because you're so anxious. And from the outside, nobody else would know that unless they could literally read your mind or it was like that scene in Bruce Almighty where all the emails are coming in. And like, that's how I sometimes feel like my brain is, I'm like, if people could hear my brain right now, they would understand that anxiety is not just a moment, it's, it's all the time, even though I've worked on my anxiety for years, and I'm definitely at a place with it now where it's so much better than it used to be. It's not that it's just, it doesn't exist anymore, it just exists in a slightly different way that is easier for me to live with. But that doesn't mean it's gone. And I think it's also about remembering that although there will be some really, really lucky people out there who won't understand what living with a mental health disorder is like, because they won't have experienced it, or they won't have experienced it in the same way that somebody else has, like, no two people will experience something in the same way. They might have similar kind of symptoms or reactions. Or they might, you know, I've seen someone before, so whenever I have a panic attack, I used to like, flap my hand in front of my face, because I just felt so hot. And that always became like, if I ever did that, I was so aware that everyone around me instantly knew like, Oop, she's not okay, which would always make me feel so much worse. So it's like all these little things that you're like, Oh, yeah. Or sometimes I'll see somebody in a train station or something on an aeroplane. And there'll be doing the hand flapping. And instantly, I'm like, I know exactly how you're feeling right now.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Zoe Sugg: But the person next to them on the train could think what the hell is up with this woman that's flapping her hands around? That's so annoying. And I think it's just about like, it's I think it's just about being aware, and having empathy. And although we can have people around us who are, you know, the most supportive people, there will also be the people that aren't as supportive or don't make it as easy or don't understand. I've had people growing up, that would be like, Oh, just just calm down. Like, what's what's wrong? And you're like, if I could tell you what's wrong? I would, but I don't know, either.
Gemma Styles: God, yeah, I can relate to that quite hard.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, or it’s like, oh, just distract yourself. I'm like, Oh, sure. That's, that's easy. I'll just distract myself. So I just feel like the- I think, just the awareness not being in that moment, and appreciating that some people will have good days. And sometimes they'll have bad days. And I think keeping the conversation going. Whether you feel that you're in a better place, or that you've worked, like- I actually stopped talking about my anxiety for a while because it became my identity. And where I'd spoken about it. It was what people were constantly speaking to me about, or my DMs were full of people saying, How can I? What can I do? How can you help me? And everywhere I looked was anxiety, anxiety, anxiety, and I was actually trying to get away from it so that I didn't feel as anxious.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Zoe Sugg: So my therapist was like, right, you you are identifying as an anxious person. And that's exactly what you don't want to be right now. She was like, just stop talking about it for a bit, work on it, and then talk about it from a position where you feel like you feel confident that you aren't in that kind of moment, if that makes sense. So it was much easier for me to then talk more openly about it with people after I felt like I had worked quite a bit on it, and that I would go home and I would feel like okay, I'm not like this person that's all I do is anxiety. And all people think about when they look at me is anxiety, I have loads more things going on. And that's just a big part of it that I've worked really hard on and I'm feeling much better about. And now I feel in such a good position to be able to talk about it and to share how I feel about it. And I think it was it was nice for me to see the response for when I could talk about anxiety, where I could say it's not as bad as it used to be. And people being like, that gives me hope. Because so much of the time you'll read about people's anxiety journeys or how they're feeling with anxiety. And although it makes you feel less alone, and you're like oh my god, I know exactly what they're talking about. It's nice to see people that have been able to live their life slightly differently and that it hasn't been this like all consuming thing for the rest of their life. Because when I was younger, I literally thought this is going to be how- this is just how my life is now for the rest of my life. How am I going to do this? This is horrific. And once I started realising it doesn't need to be this bad. It doesn't need to be so crippling that I’m falling asleep at 6pm every night. I was like, I want other people to also know that, that that can happen as well. So I actually totally forgot what your question was, [Gemma laughs] I felt I felt like I just went on a massive ramble. But yeah, I think I think people talking more about where they're at in journeys.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. I mean, can I remember what I was saying? [Zoe laughs] But everything that you're saying, like, I'm sat here nodding at, and I'm sure a lot of people will be the same. And I think like, I actually think one of the first messages that you and I ever sent to each other on like Instagram DMs, was you replying to a story that I'd posted, saying that I was having a really like, bad day with my anxiety? And kind of being like, I get it.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, I remember that actually!
Gemma Styles: And if you to talk to someone, then like, then I'm here. But also, I remember you saying to me, like, it does get a bit better. And like you I know, you’ve said that to me before, like, you know, there is like a path through it. And that like is really important to hear sometimes. And like, at the same time, as you know, having the kind of camaraderie with people who are going through the same thing, I think is really important and it is a powerful thing that you've shared your journey so openly with it because not only can people see- can, you know, identify with it when they're going through a bad time, you can also see that you have been able to make really good changes and get yourself to a better place. And I think that is a really inspiring thing to do and share, so thank you.
Zoe Sugg: Aw, thank you. Yeah, and that's not to say it's not easy. And I think a lot of the time, you know, when people think about starting therapy or starting to make any change with their mental health, it can feel so scary and daunting. And like you're about to lift this lid on like years worth of things you've buried. And I know a lot of people in my personal life even have sort of had one or two therapy sessions and gone Nope, didn't do anything. It's not for me, I feel no different. And it's, it's about you know, explaining to people and I always use the metaphor of like pulling up a weed. So it's like you can do short term things that will always make you feel slightly better. So I love listening to like relaxing podcasts, or putting on my favourite TV show, or we've all got our own little like, coping strategies to take the edge off when things are getting a bit kind of anxiety riddled. But that's essentially like just ripping the head off a weed, but the root is still there. And that's how I always explain it to people. And I'm like, if you're happy with just ripping that top off every time, then 100%, if that works for you, do it. But if you're willing to reach out for more help, or you feel that you're in a position where you really, really need to, or it's hindering how you're living your life more than you ever anticipated that it could, I would say, as hard as it is, and as much of a slog as it feels sometimes and it isn't just a one or two session thing. Pulling out those roots makes all the difference. Which- well, for me it did anyway.
Q&A
[music]
Gemma Styles: Every week, I'll be asking my guests some of your questions. And the first one comes in from Catalina. And she says,
I would like to know how Zoe chooses what to share on social media and what to keep out of it. I know that her work mostly consists of sharing content, but I personally struggle with choosing what to share. I have this rule that I post only what I consider useful information or tips. So I would like to know how she makes boundaries surrounding this topic.
Zoe Sugg: Hmm, love that question. I guess sometimes I don't really know either. Like, it's not like I've set myself a little rulebook per se. And sometimes I think the best way for me to use social media is to act like I've downloaded it for the first time and not to overthink it. So if it's something that is pretty harmless, you know, it's me like starting my day or it's a moisturiser that I'm loving or Nala like snoring on my lap or something, then I always feel like those things are just like, you know, fine to share. Generally, as we were saying earlier, I just feel like the moments where I- the moments where you just wouldn't reach for your phone. I just don't. And I guess Alfie and I, so my boyfriend who also does social media, we don't really share too much like PDA, coupley stuff like we've not, we don't post like kissing pictures or anything like that. And we, we never really have I don't, I don't think that's like a conscious thing. I think it's just that sometimes it is nice to have certain aspects, especially when it's something like your relationship just for yourself. And I'm actually really pleased that we've always been that way. But yeah, I think it's just mostly based on how I feel that day. And whether or not I feel like anything I'm doing is of any interest, which most of the time I think it isn't, but I'm like, oh, share it anyway, just in case.
Gemma Styles: I think that’s a good answer kind of, like instinctive boundaries.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: I quite like that, though. Because I think sometimes it is like, a gut feeling kind of thing. And like you say, I can't imagine that there's, I don't know, maybe people do as kind of like a thought exercise? But I can't imagine most people would actually like to sit down and write a list of like what you are and aren't allowed to post on your own social media.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, definitely.
Gemma Styles: But kind of like, thinking about what you are actually comfortable with.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, and I've definitely, weirdly, got more and more… not careful about what I'm sharing. But I think I've restricted myself more the older I've got, which, which I don't know if that's just because I feel like social media is changing a lot more. And we're all being a bit more careful about what we're saying online. Or whether it's just that I've been here a really long time. So I feel like I've probably had moments of oversharing. And now I'm like, past that point. But I do think as I'm getting older, I think more about what I'm sharing than I did like five years ago, I would literally just post whatever I felt like posting.
Gemma Styles: That leads me quite nicely into another question, which was actually quite a frequently asked question that I got. So I'll read out that- this question was from Anna, who says,
What is something that you would say to your younger self, given that you've suffered with anxiety and being in the spotlight?
So I guess leading on from that, you've said, you know, you're a bit older, and things have changed? Now, what would you maybe say to your younger self?
Zoe Sugg: I would say, your life is going to get crazy, even though you don't realise it yet, so don't put off going to that first therapy appointment. I think I should have- basically I went through this phase where I was like, I'm gonna go to my doctor. And then I just, they told me to buy trainers and go for a run. And I was like, Oh, okay.
Gemma Styles: Ughh…
Zoe Sugg: That's just not really very helpful. And then I thought, okay, I'll try again. And they were like, oh, maybe it's just because you came on your period, and your hormones are everywhere. And I was like, again, I just, I don't feel like that's very helpful. So I went through this phase of being like, even the doctors don't get it, like, what am I going to do? So I put it off for a really long time. And then I think it was only really when things started getting a lot busier in my life. And all these opportunities were coming up. And I'd be in front of a massive camera having to do like interviews and record things that I'd never done before that I was like, Okay, I need, I need to speak to a therapist, but it was at that point where it was like, no return. Whereas I think I'd have quite liked to have maybe done that a little earlier. And also, I just think stay true. Listen to your gut. And I think I think those are the main things.
Gemma Styles: I think those are good answers. It is a tough question to kind of like, it's like trying to kind of benefit from someone else's hindsight isn't it?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah!
Gemma Styles: As in like, try to get advice for you when you're younger. But I think I think that was good, like, not letting things snowball out of control before you get to help for them I feel like that is, that's definitely good advice.
Zoe Sugg: Definitely. And also at the time, I remember feeling like, I wish I could speak to somebody who's been through this, and not having anyone to speak to because it was so new and kind of me and my friends who were all doing at the time. We were sort of the ones kind of at the front kind of just going for it and seeing what happened. And I remember when it was all getting quite overwhelming. I wish I'd had somebody to speak to to be like, What do I do? Like, where is this gonna go? What's next year gonna look like? And I think if I could now go back and speak to my younger self, I would be that like, mentor that I needed back then. And I always try and make sure I do that for other people as well, because it was something that I wish I'd had. And now if anyone is like struggling with any aspect of like having an audience or something going viral or being kind of thrust into this environment that they're not used to, I'm always like, Hi, if you ever need to chat, just let me know! I'm probably like that annoying, like, Auntie that like slips in. And it's like, Do you need any help? [laughs]
Gemma Styles: No that’s so nice, though! I think a lot of people would like, I'm sure people have appreciated about when you've done that, for sure. Next question is from Lexi, who says,
Were there opportunities in the past that you declined because of your anxiety? And do you regret declining them?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, there were a few things. So there's some like singing stuff that I always declined because I was just like, I can't, I can't go on a stage. I can't- I can't sing in front of people. Like, are you having a laugh? Like? Absolutely not. So I always declined anything that was like singing related just because I'm just not I'm not that confident. Like when my brother-
Gemma Styles: Do you like to sing, though?
Zoe Sugg: I like it. And I feel like I can hold a note in the shower. And so many people are like please do a cover, please do a cover where they've like heard little snippets in vlogs and stuff. I've had opportunities come up where I've been asked to audition for things or I've been asked if I want to make a song with certain people. And I've just been like, Oh my God, in- there's like a tiny part of me inside, there’s like, 10 year old Zoe is like, yes! But 30 year old Zoe with anxiety is like, absolutely not. [laughs] So little things like that. But I don't. I don't know. I feel like I don't ever regret anything just because I'm also such like a go with your gut. And I just think sometimes if I feel so strongly about something, I just know. Like, if you do it, you're not going to enjoy it anyway, because of how I feel about it. So yeah, there's definitely things like that or trips I've turned down where I've been like, oh, what you're telling me that that's a 12 hour flight? Absolutely not. Thank you for your free flight, but I can't get on that plane.
Gemma Styles: Thank you, but no thank you.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, which is so stupid. And it may, it makes me sound so ungrateful. But you'll understand, like, anxiety doesn't give a shit. It's like, you won't enjoy it, and it will frustrate you. And you'll be like, why am I not enjoying this like everyone else. And I wish that I was at home. Which is really frustrating.
Gemma Styles: So frustrating. That is the word that I was thinking of as you were talking, I was like, is that just frustration or being like, why can't I just do this thing?
Zoe Sugg: Yeah. And there have been times where I've really pushed myself. And I'm glad I did. So I got asked to do the Bake Off. And that's obviously like my favourite show ever. And that was like the hardest two days anxiety wise, like, ever, let alone like the fact that there's anxiety, even just having like a time limit on what you're baking. And the fact that is being filmed. And like going out to TV, like TV stuff for me is really hard. Anything that's like live TV. I did it a bit. And then I was like, it's just not for me.
Gemma Styles: Oh my God, I would just combust.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah, I hated every second of it. And then I also hated afterwards where people would like, link me it or be like, Oh my god, I just watched you on this. And I just I could not watch any of them back because I get this thing where I think I'm not gonna have anything to say. Or like, I'm gonna get a mind blank, like live on TV. And yeah, so live TV. No. But the Bake Off was a good example of where I pushed myself. And I'm glad I did. But thankfully, that wasn't live, so. [both laugh]
Gemma Styles: That is definitely good. I mean, that is the kind of thing where like, I mean, I also love Bake Off. But if someone actually asked me to go on any kind of Bake Off, I'd be like, mmmmm, like, I feel like I would enjoy it if nobody was filming it? But because it's a public thing. I would be like, I don't think I can do that.
Zoe Sugg: And it's funny, because some people are like, What do you mean? Like, you upload videos to millions of people, but I'm like, Yeah, but I'm in control of that. And I'm in my home and I'm like the one editing it and I can choose when it goes up. And I think maybe for me, it's just a bit of a lack of control or something. I don't know. But I'm like it's so different.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, totally. That makes sense to me as well, though. I think, I dunno. I probably have to be in control as well. [Zoe laughs] But maybe that's just an anxiety thing. I feel like the more you can control stuff maybe the less it stresses you out?
Zoe Sugg: Definitely.
Gemma Styles: Next question from Orla. Who says,
In regards to a digital detox, I've always tried slash wanted to do one. But as I’m only 16 I do feel like most of my friends will just forget about me if I stop texting them, or I'll get made fun of for wanting to work on myself. What would be the best way to go around this?
Zoe Sugg: Awww. Firstly, I feel like if you think your friends are going to be that way, are they really your friends, because you want to be surrounded by people that are going to support you, and encourage you, where you- especially with the working on yourself thing. I would feel so disappointed in my friends, I was like, I really want to work on myself. And they were like, Eww. Why?
Gemma Styles: I know, imagine.
Zoe Sugg: I think that this is something that should be encouraged. And you should be around people that are going to support you in whatever you want to do to make yourself feel better. But also, like we were saying earlier, you know, one day is not- if you were to do one day of digital detox, not a lot is going to change in a day. In terms of like conversations you've missed out on or things you've not seen on social media. A lot of the time, and I mean, I'm only speaking for myself, but I feel like a lot of people can relate, you just end up just mindlessly scrolling and consuming everybody else living their day and not living your own day. And that for me is one of the reasons why I love doing it so much. Because I don't realise how much time I'm wasting just watching everybody else living their day, instead of me actually just doing what I need to do. And I think sometimes it's good to have that space, you know, go and do something you really enjoy. Read a book, have a nice bath, do a little pamper session, go for a nice walk if you can. And then when you come back together, you'll have things to talk about. And you can share what you did and create new conversations, which I always think is very healthy, because we're so used to- especially I feel like at the age of 16 you're just constantly, like having conversations, the conversations never stop. It's such like a back and forth all day every day. And even that, like I mean, I could never do that. I think i would just be so like mentally exhausted, even through last year where we were having to obviously use our devices a lot more, and our screens and Zoom and like FaceTime, and like- screen fatigue is a thing.
Gemma Styles: 100%.
Zoe Sugg: And yeah, I just found myself like, getting to the point where I was like, I don't want to do another FaceTime. Like, I'd rather just- and actually I in the end, I think voice notes are my favourite because it's like, it's kind of like a phone call. But you can do it at your own pace. If that makes sense. You can ask a question. It's not like an immediate answer. It's like just answer when you can. But I do think having that space and not having that constant connection with your friends is only a good thing. And if a digital detox is what you think will make you feel better, that should be your priority.
Gemma Styles: Love that answer. Think that’s very good advice. Okay, so question from Lily, who says,
I've loved hearing about the charities you and Alfie have given to. What are the causes you plan to focus on in 2021? What's on your radar in terms of giving back?
Zoe Sugg: Okay, so we try and, Alfie and I, we give a percentage of everything we earn to different charities each month. And isn't charity such a funny one? Because- and I said this in a video recently, like I haven't, I don't ever really talk that openly about charities that I give to or support because I never want people to think like, oh, you're only talking about it, because you want everyone to know that you're doing something nice. So I've never, I've always kind of just thought, you know, I'll do this. And I just know we're doing it. And I don't ever feel like I need to like share it from that perspective. And every one of my comments was like, No, don't be silly. Like, we love hearing about it. And I was like, oh, okay, all right then. So we always try and support a massive variety of charities. So, more recently, we've supported a lot of homelessness charities, and food banks and things over Christmas, because it felt very apt at that time of year. But we'll also be supporting children's charities, animal shelters, we gave to an animal sanctuary that's near us. Basically, in one of the storms we had in 2020. I feel like we had a few storms. There were quite a few shit storms to go around in 2020. [both laugh]
Gemma Styles: It was a stormy old year!
Zoe Sugg: All of the outhouses that the donkeys and the horses were in had got completely destroyed. So we paid to have those restored so the donkeys and the horses had somewhere to live. So it's just like, we-
Gemma Styles: Uh, that makes me so happy!
Zoe Sugg: I know. So we try and like we do try and tick all the boxes when it comes to charities, and we support about 3 different charities each month, which is something that we're obviously really happy and proud to be able to do. And it is it's such a lovely part of what we do, like getting to sit down and have those meetings each month and kind of work out where we want to help. And if there's any charities that are desperately in need of something, and I think especially last year, where there were just so many charities that needed more help than usual. But yeah, it feels really nice to give back. Definitely.
Gemma Styles: That's really nice. And that is something I didn't know about you and that's a really lovely thing!
Remember, if you want to get in touch with us, or you've got any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.
recommendations
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Gemma Styles: So, before you go, I've got three things that I ask every guest to give us. And that's if people listening want to learn a bit more about what we've been talking about today, or just, you know, do a bit of bit of wider, wider searching. Could you give us something to read, something to listen to, and something to watch, please?
Zoe Sugg: Yes. So in terms of read, I've got two books. So the first one is Why Social Media is Ruining Your Life by Katherine Ormerod. Have you ever heard of that one?
Gemma Styles: I have. And I follow Katherine.
Zoe Sugg: Yes, me too. So she basically just provides people with knowledge, tactics and weaponry that you need to find a more healthy way to consume social media and reclaim your happiness, which I think is perfect to go alongside this conversation.
Gemma Styles: Agree.
Zoe Sugg: Yeah. And then also Lucy Sheridan, I don't know if you follow her? She's like the comparison coach that she talks a lot about comparison. And-
Gemma Styles: She's been on this podcast earlier in the series!
Zoe Sugg: Oh my God, I missed that one!
Gemma Styles: Oh she’s great, she’s so great.
Zoe Sugg: Well, there's one to put in one to listen to. But yeah, also her book, The Comparison Cure. Because I do think a really large part of social media and how we feel about social media is down to comparison and feeling like everyone else has got their shit together and that you haven't, when that's probably not the case in reality. So yeah, her book is amazing. And then in terms of listen to, I've actually, I've picked an app that I always put on when I feel like I need to get out of my head, basically. And it's an app that I've recommended to people for years. And it's just my absolute favourite. Alfie always says that he's like this creepy man, [laughs] like with his creepy voice, and I highly disagree, because I'm like, No, he's amazing. But it's like a 28 minute meditation. So I'll either listen to it if I'm struggling to fall asleep, or if I'm feeling really anxious. So usually, if I'm in an airport, that's like me at my peak, anxious moment, I will literally listen to this meditation on repeat, and it gets me through the airport. It's amazing. So if you were to search Complete Relaxation into iTunes, or the App Store, then you'll find it. But yeah, if you're struggling to fall asleep, you will not get to the end of it. Like it just puts you straight to sleep. It's amazing.
Gemma Styles: Okay, perfect.
Zoe Sugg: And then watch. For watch. I have said basically any of the Digital Detox Day Instagram TVs I uploaded on my Instagram, because around Digital Detox Day, we created quite a lot of content around how social media affects different kind of topics. So we've got one on anxiety, one on body image, one on cyberbullying, one on human connection, and then one on setting digital boundaries. And I feel like it's a really good place for people to start and to go and learn a little bit more about those things. If they're listening to this podcast, and they're like, Oh, my God, I feel like that and I need to set some digital boundaries, and my anxiety is terrible, then I would definitely recommend heading to the IGTV section on my Instagram and you can watch them all on that.
outro
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Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening to Good Influence. And thank you, Zoe, for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, please take a minute to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player or wherever you're listening. And if you're feeling really generous rate and review as well. It's really appreciated and helps other people find the podcast. And that's a wrap on season one! I hope to see you later in the year for season two. If you've got ideas for topics that you'd like to feature in the next series, again, you can email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com. See you later!