S02E03 Transcript: Sophie Butler on Disabled Advocacy and Body Image
Please note: Good Influence is produced for audio and designed to be heard. If you are able to, please listen to the audio, which includes emotion and emphasis that's not on the page. Transcripts are generated using a combination of speech recognition software and human proofing, and may contain errors. Please check the corresponding audio before quoting in print. You can find links to audio versions of all episodes here.
INTRO
[music]
Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who’ll help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about disability, advocacy and body image; how social media can be valuable in representation, examples of overlooked accessibility needs, and how we can combine self-love and neutrality in building our confidence. So joining me this week is Sophie Butler. Sophie uses her online platform to advocate for accessibility and empowerment for the Disabled community and for women in general. She was Cosmopolitan’s Influencer of the Year in 2019 and was the first wheelchair user to be signed as a Gymshark athlete, now representing Disabled athletes on a huge, global scale.
[music]
Sophie Butler: At the end of the day, before my injury, I didn’t know anything. I was 21, very naive, probably very ignorant actually is a better word to use, and I'd never thought about accessibility before.
discussion
Gemma Styles: So I guess I'll start and ask you kind of to like introduce yourself a little bit more and sort of how you ended up doing the work that you do now. I think that's something people always like to know is kind of people's background and story.
Sophie Butler: Yeah, do you know what, this question is always so funny because it's always the opening question to every podcast and meeting I've done. But every time it comes up, I'm like, who am I? And have crisis in my head. But no so, I’m Sophie Butler, I'm twenty four from Essex and I kind of fell into what I do now, like very, very accidentally. I had a spinal injury when I was 21 and I’d literally just finished university. And when I say just finished, I mean I got my results that day so literally as I say, just finished. And it was about six weeks away, six or seven weeks away from my graduation. So spinal injury at 21. And long story short, I survived. [laughs] And in that time I kind of started to document my journey on social media. And because I think it was just kind of really the only outlet that I had. And I think I was I was very lonely. But during that time, I mean, I had great people around me. But you can still be surrounded by people and still feel quite lonely in what you're going through. So I started to use social media as kind of a bit like an outlet to share my journey and stuff like that. And I think people really kind of took an interest in it because I was so— I didn't even realise doing it at the time. But I was being so vulnerable in what I was going through, people started to kind of feel very emotionally invested in it. And then as time has gone on, my account has grown. And what I do has really started to change because I've moved away from sharing those first initial recovery days to talking about loads of different things, mental health and disability and self-love and representation and all those kind of things. And, yeah, that's that's kind of where I started and it just kind of evolved and become this beast, like its own little thing. [Gemma laughs] And I sometimes I look at it and I'm like, where did this come from?
Gemma Styles: I think that's one of the things that I find makes you a really interesting person to follow and this— I don't know how to say this without sounding weird, because I also don't mean this like disrespectfully to anybody else. But I feel like Instagram and social media it’s one of those things where you're basically rewarded the more kind of niche that you are and like the way that the algorithm works, that you're literally rewarded for being very easy to categorise and for talking about one thing or maybe like a couple of things. But I feel like every time I see your stories or I come to your page like I know what you like to talk about, but you always getting something different. You'll be talking about music or talking about makeup or feminism or. Yes, self-love in general. And like, it's nice to see, like, I think you're a very relatable person because you do get like a real rounded sense of you from your page, which I mean as a compliment.
Sophie Butler: Well, this is probably, I feel like I've just come on here to be complimented, I'm very I'm very happy about that. But yeah, I think I just kind of I think I feel like I've lived so many lives in, like, just 24 years. But I feel like because I have so many different parts of me and so many different interests, and sometimes they kind of just sometimes seep out for an Instagram story. Like last week someone was like, I didn't know you was a history buff. And I’m like, I love history. And then sometimes I think that that will come out and interest and stuff. And people just like all these things about you, you're actually quite geeky or, you know, like all of these other things that come out. And I just kind of I I like that. I think that kind of goes back to where I kind of started on social media it was as an outlet. So I think now I kind of really love it that I get to kind of like have all these different parts of my personality and my life come out. And, you know, you might as a viewer, but as someone who follows me or whatever. So mean you might see that and be like like, oh, that's really cool. That's something about someone that I didn't know, which kind of makes them feel a bit more like a whole person and not just someone but behind in account.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, definitely. Do you think like was that something that you. Just naturally did or is it partly kind of intentional in terms of because you do a lot of, you know, work and talking about representation and stuff, is that kind of part of it for you to be like, you know, don't just talk to me about Disability or, you know, wider representation of of you as a person? Like, do you kind of think about that? Or is this just that's just how you do it?
Sophie Butler: It wasn't at first, I think, because I didn't start I've always kind of like spoken about Disability on my Instagram. But it was more sort of just sprinkled throughout like, more personal experiences rather than outright talking about — these are things that happen to a wider community. And these are things that is part of the Disabled experience. So I think at first I was more just kind of just talking about things I liked because I enjoy it. And I think the more that I've become aware of it, it's not like I do it because I know it's important, but it's just kind of in the back of my head now that it's kind of like good to kind of show well-rounded representation of people, because I think one thing that would kind of really- not upset, I don’t know if upset’s the right word? But it might be one thing that wouldn't sit right with me is if someone just, because I know it does happen to people online, if people just saw me as oh, that's that girl who talks about disability. You know, that's a disability rights advocate because for the most part, advocates don't choose to become advocates. We kind of have to be in order to survive. And there's people behind that you know. And just because someone is Disabled, that doesn't mean they have to be an advocate. They're just trying to live their life. But even if we do decide to become advocates, there's people behind that, people with interests and families and friends and emotions and all of the things. So, yeah, to answer your question, I don’t think it was intentional, whatever. But now it is in the back of my mind of like, it's important that people see that I'm like a whole rounded person who has loads of really weird and niche interests. [both laugh]
Gemma Styles: So, we've mentioned kind of the advocacy that you do, which is now, well, as we've said, part of a very multifaceted, you know, picture that you show online. But when did you start to feel more like an advocate for the Disabled community and when did you start to feel kind of a bit more confident in sharing more information like about your community in general?
Sophie Butler: Yeah, I think that's a really good question, because I know it's definitely been like a massive, massive journey for me, because I know at first, like, I didn't even really feel comfortable becoming an advocate for myself. So I think that is one thing that a lot of people don't realise is before you can become an advocate and advocate for other people, you have to be able to advocate for yourself. And and that's a really hard thing to know, because even if we're talking back a few years ago and even now sometimes like if I’m not having the best of days or whatever, sometimes something will happen or I'll experience some kind of ableism, that someone will say something or maybe somewhere is not accessible. It's not, it's not good enough. And I would kind of almost not know how to deal with that. And I think it's there was like a part of me that deep down knew it was wrong and knew I should say something. But I had always just kind of never- I'd never really seen people speak out against that kind of stuff and always just kind of felt like me and myself, I kind of felt like a burden if I was to say something, so I kind of didn't want to bother people. So I think that was kind of one of the things that makes me so passionate now is because I know that there are so many people who would still maybe feel not confident to advocate for themselves, because I know that I still feel that that that comes and goes. And even now, I would say that I'm a fairly confident advocate. But even now, within my own personal life, there are times where I think I can't be bothered to fight this battle today. So that's probably one of the reasons why I'm so passionate about it. And I think I just kind of naturally, as I grew in confidence as a person, I grew in confidence, like in that sector as well, I guess, I started doing more specific advocacy work on Instagram because I started to realise that, I don't know if you feel the same as well, but when I had this moment where I realised that people were actually listening to what I was saying and I was like, other people like actually, people are actually influenced by me. And it really scared me at first because I was a little bit like, um, I kind of grew up a bit of like a geeky, kind of like unpopular kind of kid who I was not someone who was very used to harnessing great influence. So it kind of scared me a little bit first. And I kind of had to really think about what do I want to do with this this influence? So I naturally started talking about things that I was passionate about, things that I've cared about, whether that's politics, Disability or all of that kind of stuff. And I started to use infographics specifically to do that because I wanted people to look at the topics and look at the things I was saying and care about them, not because they were attached to my face, but care about them just because they should care about them. So I could you know, and I don't know, sometimes you'll find the same thing I could upload a nice picture of myself with a really deep, well written caption that's really important, talking about mental health or discrimination or whatever. But there would still be people who would look at the picture and just see me and maybe not read the caption. And that's just the game of Instagram. You know, it's nothing personal. It's not that big of a deal. But I thought if I really want people to listen to what I'm saying and not because it's coming out of my mouth just because they should care about it, I kind of have to detach my face from what I'm saying, which is where the infographic stuff started to come out.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, that's really interesting. I've not really heard people talk about that being the reason for infographics before, because I know what you mean is that there's definitely I mean, Instagram specifically is obviously an incredibly visual platform. And you will always get. Yeah, the people who don't read the caption and just go for the pictures, which is kind of like whatever, like people get to use their social media however they like. But weirdly, that's kind of how this podcast ended up coming about, because I had first made a Facebook group to try and like get more conversation for the people who would be in the comments, actually, like engaging with captions and kind of like wanting to have conversations about stuff I was talking about. And then it's kind of yeah, it's like grown into then we've made it into a podcast with the people who do actually care about stuff, which is exactly what you’re saying.
Sophie Butler: And I think that’s one of the reasons I really I told you when I listen to a podcast like I really liked it and I did genuinely like it before you asked me to come on. [both laughing] So I I think that's one of the reasons why I did genuinely, really like it, because, like, as you say, it is a good influence and you're asking people just to care about stuff that they maybe don't know about. And sometimes I hear a lot of the times when it comes to Disability, a lot of a lot of people, a lot of the things I've heard is people say like, oh, you should care about Disability rights because you could become Disabled at any moment. And I'm like, you should care about disability rights because there are Disabled people that already exist. Yeah. And I don't believe and I think what I personally like to believe anyway, is I know Disability are a very ignored sector. And when it comes to conversations about equality, Disability is more often, I don't like to say ignored, but more forgotten because I don't, I genuinely believe that a lot of people would care about Disability rights and accessibility if they knew more about the current state of affairs that we're in. It's not that people are consciously ignoring it. There are some people who do consciously ignore it. And that's a whole other subject. But I think I think a lot of the problem is people who genuinely don't know anything about the Disability rights movement or where we're at or what the Disabled experience is like. And I because I've known from my own personal experiences when even when I've been with friends or I've been on jobs with people and they've seen me experience certain things, which to me now is just life and it's second nature. But when they see me experience certain things, it kind of really shocks them. And they kind of this is this is not good enough. And I'm like, okay! Feel free to go forward and continue talking about it.
Gemma Styles: Basically, what, how I feel about things like this is like you- People should care about things, but I also don't expect people to know things that they've never been taught, if you know what I mean. So like, giving people access to information and like different voices that they might not have come across, like to be able to learn something, I think having the opportunity to do that, which I think you do a really good job as well of like making it, making it accessible to people, which I mean is a hilarious choice of words, because you making things more accessible for people [Sophie laughs] who aren't making things accessible for you seems too nice of you, but it was making me think of a post I saw you do recently where it was kind of applying… So in the UK we're coming out of lockdown, ish, now. And you were talking about, you know, people sort of complaining that they have to like book restaurants in advance and they have to like make all these plans and make phone calls and figure out what stuff’s going on. And you're like, hello? Like, I don't think you have any idea how it is for Disabled people, all the time.
Sophie Butler: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: So like, when it comes to that, like, what do you want people to know about? So you're talking about like the Disabled rights movement and what you want people to know about accessibility. What do you want us to know?
Sophie Butler: I think the most important thing to know is, is first of all, it has such a rich history to it. And, you know, I'm I'm really grateful. I think back end of last year and this year, I've seen some really great resources in terms of TV and media starting to cover the history of the Disabled rights movement. And I mean, we only we only just got the Disability Discrimination Act in I think it was 1995. So that's just a year before I was born.
Gemma Styles: Wow.
Sophie Butler: Which is crazy to think about. And that that I think, I think most people's misconceptions is with surrounding Disability in general is I think a lot of people subconsciously maybe think that someone else is fighting the Disabled fight when it actually is and always has been Disabled people fighting that fight. There's not always people fighting it for us. And I think there is something in that there, because I think when it comes to being a Disabled person, I think your advocacy and your, your kind of self is taken from you, because I know sometimes when I go out, I went out for lunch with my dad the other day and the woman in the restaurant was only talking to my dad, I'm literally right beside him. I'm nearly twenty five years old. I'm a fully grown adult who is trying to talk with her, but she's only talking through my dad. So I guess the first thing to know is that there is already a rich history and it is a fight that has been going on for a long time that has been led by Disabled people, for Disabled people. And it's because of them, people in our past, our not so far away past that we have the the rights and the progression that we do have today. So but then also the fact that it does impact every single sector of your life, even if we look at something, something that I loved which is music. So music venues, music gigs, accessibility in transport, trains, holidays. I was trying to like the other day, I was trying to look at getting away somewhere and in terms of accessibility booking in hotels and things like that, I really want to get away to the Lake District. So I was looking around, looking around and there was like hardly nothing. And it's just like it's just not being aware. And if I was to sit here and list every single way in which accessibility affects my life, I would probably be here all week because I’d be telling you every single thing that I go through. But it is really funny that that post that you brought up, because obviously people are so excited to get out, which is understandable. But people are almost like, what? I've got to book ahead? And I've got to do this and I've got to do that, I thought, well, I have to do that to get a train. And some well, yeah, at some stations they’re really nice and some because I think because I get there's one line that I get very often, so they kind of know me. So they kind of know if I'm going to show up a little bit late or whatever, that it's not that big of a deal. And they'll still help you because they have to actually physically get a ramp out and onto the train so that you can use it, so the ramp doesn't come out of the train itself, which a lot of people seem to think does happen, but it's not. So. Yeah, so there's some stations that where, because I know me that they're quite relaxed about it. But if I was to not book, I think it's twelve or twenty four hours in advance depending on what way you’re booking, then, I mean they're well within their “rights” and I use rights in quotations because it's not right to say we say you haven't pre-booked. We can't we can't do this, we can't do that. And I know some really horrible instances where people have not been able to get to work and have not been able to do the things that they need to do because of this. Or maybe, I luckily, touch wood, have never been in the situation, but where they've actually needed to get off the train, at their stop, but the person's not been there to help them off. So they've actually just been stuck on that train. And it's things like that, like where it's like kind of really puts it into perspective.
Gemma Styles: That’s so terrible.
Sophie Butler: It's terrifying and for me, for someone who who suffers with anxiety as well like that is something that I'm always really scared of, even though I know at the stations that I regularly get off, they're really good and I've never had a problem. It's always something that's in the back of my mind that I'm just thinking this could happen at any moment and there's not really much that I can do about it.
Gemma Styles: That is so difficult. And I'm grateful for the conversation, though, because that's the kind of thing where as an able bodied person, like even when I'm trying to, like, pay attention to things and educate myself on things and be aware of stuff, like, I didn't know that about the trains that you had to book them in advance. And like it has to be so far, and I think that's I'm sure a lot of people also wouldn't know that. And I think hearing these things and then sort of having the opportunity to then be more aware of them. I don't know, I think it just it gives you a greater appreciation for the, for the work that you do, you know?
Sophie Butler: Yeah, I, and I think that is I think one of the big problems is I guess with the subjects that I talk about is I think people have just genuinely and very innocently not been aware of them before. And I try to be as humanly as I can be very, very empathetic and sympathetic with that, because at the end of the day, before my injury, I didn't know anything. I was twenty one, very naive, probably very ignorant’s actually the better word to use. And I'd never thought about Disability before. So I do understand when so many people get frustrated because I get frustrated about people not knowing certain things, but then I always keep you in back of my head. You didn't know anything four or five years ago. So there has to be a degree of understanding and patience there. And I am more grateful than frustrated when people say, look, I don't know anything about this, but I want to and I want to know what I can do to help.
Gemma Styles: I do understand that as well, because it's quite it's almost quite scary to ask at certain points, because even if people do care, they don't want to say the wrong thing and end up kind of I don't know, you don't want to be rude. You don't want to say something slightly wrong. You don't want to then put more also emotional labour onto someone who doesn't, you know, doesn't have to teach you anything. But it's still you know, I think it's nice that, like you say, like when people actually can say, yeah, I don't really know much about that. I've had the luxury, the privilege of not having to think about it. But I would like to learn and be better.
Sophie Butler: Yeah, absolutely. And I think there's that balance as well of like not want- kind of like wanting to know more and then not putting the emotional labour on someone. So sometimes I’ve felt very like overwhelmed with especially like from Instagram, feeling like I kind of have to be almost like a bit of a Wikipedia to people, because people who expect certain answers from me and and a lot of the time I kind of I sit there and I think, ooh, do I even know the answer to this? Or maybe it's an experience that I've not had and or maybe it's just something that I don't know about. And it starts to go on with topics outside of Disability as well. And I have to really sit there and think, do I know enough to be talking about this? But also as well with the emotional labour, I think from my perspective as a Disabled person is I can go on Instagram and write the most fantastic infographic ever and put all of the information out there. But when I close my phone and when I close my laptop, it's still my life and it's still something that I experience. So I go out into the world. I could be the most like bold, unapologetic person on Instagram, but that's not going to stop me from experiencing ableism or discrimination outside in the real world, which is a lot more scary. So I think that's something that I always- and I think that that rings true for a lot of people on Instagram and the things they talk about, whether you talk about mental health or racism or whatever it is, you know, that you have to be understanding that this person is a real person who is closing their phone and going out into the real world and also processing a lot of very real experiences that they are they are handling. And it's really hard to subconsciously process things that are happening and then digest it, understand it, and then put it into a pretty infographic for people to then absorb and take in.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. And like, just because you talk about something doesn't mean you've, like, levelled up from it and it doesn't affect you anymore.
Sophie Butler: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Like just because you can then talk about it doesn't mean like you've solved it and it's over and that’s it. But so, as you say about, you know, it's not not always as easy as just sharing something. I mean, you get to walk away from it. You've also been quite open about your experiences with trolling in relation to Instagram and, you know, being quite a public voice, you know, in this conversation, and especially I think, you know, because you do a lot of work around the gym and exercise and working out, however you wanna talk about it, when I see stuff like that happening, when I see you talking about it, it really makes me want to be like, well, how do we get to a point where you aren’t experiencing, like, awful trolling because you're going to the gym? I mean, to me it makes no sense. But I'm like, I would love to know how we could try and make the situation any better.
Sophie Butler: Yeah, the trolling is that's something that's kind of really, really amped up, I think, within the last year or so? And I have noticed as well is kind of runs parallel to when something bad happens in the world. So when we get into another lockdown, people think it's almost like, I need someone to take this out on. Well, Sophie's an easy target, you know, so let's go leave some comments on her post. But I think in general, we obviously know it's it's a big, big problem that kind of, it's not even just isolated to social media. It's in big media and it's in is in real life as well. The way we talk about people and the way we think about other people. But from my personal experience, it's kind of really sort of amped up. I think the more… and I don't know if that’s the right word but I'm going to use it, the more unapologetic that I've been? And from what what I kind of understand and come to terms with is the people who who are leaving these comments, I can't imagine they're very happy within their own lives. And that that's always a no profile picture, no name, no personal information. So it's kind of someone who is literally just using you as a punching bag. And it's kind of really hard to balance allowing yourself to be upset because it really annoys when people are like, don't let these people upset you, blah blah blah, because if that was my friend, I’d be like, you have a right to be upset. And I don't think we should have to suppress all of our feelings because it's a natural human response. Like if someone come up to you in the street and they was like, you're obese, you're fat, you're one cake away from a heart attack or you're Disabled, your life isn't worth living, you know, go kill yourself, whatever — which is all comments that I've had. If someone wants to come and say that to me in the street, you wouldn't say, don't let it get to you. So just because it's on social media, it shouldn't be very any different. And I've had so many conversations with, with brands and with other influencers of how do we actually deal with this? Because I mean, I was just kind of a little bit dumbfounded because I was very used to dealing with, in real life, comments that are upsetting. And because as a Disabled person, you do get it in real life as well. People say things upset you and that all the time. So I learnt how to deal with that. But I hadn't learnt to deal with it, the volume of which I was starting to get it online. I think there was one particular Gymshark post, it was at the start of the year where there was about four to five hundred comments, which were all like the ones that I just imitated. And it was really, really hard because it was at such a volume that when I was speaking to the Gymshark team. I was like, I don't get it. I just want to shut up and do what every other single person on this team is doing. So why am I getting, why am I being- It feels like an ambush. We're being ambushed with this.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Sophie Butler: And it did kind of really put me into a bad mental state because obviously we was in lockdown at that point as well. It's in January. It's kind of like the worst time of the year for January blues or whatever. And I was really, really knocked for six by it. And but this year really has been very mentally and very emotionally hard. And I think that has kind of been the trigger for everything I've been feeling this year. And I had so many conversations with Gymshark, and I say Gymshark specifically because that's where the conversation really arose of this being a problem. I've just got to say, they're really hot on it from a brand perspective. And we've had so many conversations of not just them saying, well, this is how we deal with it. It’s them going, well how would you like us to deal with it? What makes you feel safe? What what would you like to do? Because I used to find it quite funny when I know I or Gymshark as a brand or other brand would kind of clap back to comments like that. And it looks funny and it is funny and it kind of puts people in their place. But then the more that I've experienced it, the more I realise I think these people actually like the attention. So I know, I'm not necessarily sure how clapping back kind of really helps to stop this kind of stuff. So the place that I'm kind of in now and the conversations I've had with Gymshark and other brands is, I think comments that are specifically discriminatory or vulgar or hateful just need to be removed. That's just my personal stance. I think they need to be removed. And then I think a comment needs to be made by the brand of this will not be tolerated in the space. You will not get the attention you're looking for. You will just be blocked and that's that.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. And I mean, I think that's totally fair as well. And like you say, it's so personal how you deal with these things, because, I mean, I totally agree. It's very easy to say to someone, oh, well, you know, it's just it's just some miserable person, in their house, who’s you know, sending you a message like don't pay any attention to it, but like it's like, you know, when you got DMs and stuff, it's like someone texting you. And when they're saying, like, really vicious, awful things, like, I think you're totally right. It's fine to not feel like you can just ignore them. Like that's not OK. It's not an OK thing to do to people.
Sophie Butler: Yeah, I think the way that I've kind of really the way that I think if I did because I think dealing with it publicly and dealing with it in a very formal manner is one thing. But then also I think you've got to deal with it personally as well. And the way that I kind of deal with it internally is, I mean, because I mean, as I said I'm a massive music music fan. Music is very big in my household. And we grew up kind of worshipping Madonna, which my dad is always so embarrassed when I tell people this, but we are a big Madonna household and I kind of grew up seeing the way that she was treated in the media. And like, growing up, seeing that made me like one, terrified because I was like, this woman is just doing her job. And you know, she grew up kind of celebrated in our household. So I was like, why are they attacking her like this? But then also seeing the way that she was just getting on and doing what she wanted because she was like, look, you can say what you want about me, make all these rumours up regardless, whatever. I'm still going to show up and do what I want. And I think I kind of really learnt a lot from that. But also, I remember she gave this interview once where she was talking about just as you don't let people's negative things they say get to you, you've also got to take everything positive that people say with a pinch of salt because people's opinions on you flip flop day and night. And that's something that's always really stuck with me. And you've seen it with largely women, I think, in media all the time.
Gemma Styles: Yeah…
Sophie Butler: One minute they hate you and the next minute they love you. So I think that's something that I always bear in mind. And it's not just famous people or influencers or whatever you see a lot in real life. People's opinions flip flop on women. And I'm saying women specifically because I think there is a misogynistic undertone to it, but it probably does happen to men as well. So, yeah, I think that's just something that I always bear in mind. And it's really kind of given me a lot of peace when people make comments about, particularly about my body. So you could be I could see like a heap of comments of people being like, you're disgusting, you’re obese, you’re this or whatever. And then I go into another load of comments where it's people being like, oh, my God, I would kill for your body. I love your body and blah-blah-blah. And I'm looking at the two thinking these don't add up. How can these be about the same person? And it's just kind of really told me that one, opinions flip flop. And two, it's literally just that, it’s an opinion. It's nothing to do with me. And people can have such contrasting opinions on the same thing, but their opinion is their business. And I just kind of really sat there and thought, well, if people look at this as people in this world who literally can hate Madonna and Beyonce and say all these things about them, then people's opinions aren’t my business.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, it's so true. Like, it's a hard place to get to. But I think I mean, you're totally right. There's only so much like, you can't really control how people are going to respond to you all the time. Do you feel like being a Madonna house and kind of looking looking up to other women? Has that- because you talk about a lot about self-love and kind of the celebration of yourself and all that kind of thing online as well. Do you think that's played into how you've kind of grown up and developed, you know, the love for yourself or is like what's how- like how have you done it? Basically. Because I feel like this is what people always want to know as well, when when people are feeling, you know, a bit low on confidence or like they would really like to feel more empowered or kind of stronger in their own selves. How did you come to foster that?
Sophie Butler: Where did you come from? [both laugh] Yeah, and I think that question of like, where did you, where did that come from? It's such a great question. It's a question I get asked a lot because I think we live in a world where it's so much more natural to tear yourself down than it is to actually, not even big yourself up, but just to be OK with yourself and just to be happy and who you are. And so often I get like people I get people who call me arrogant or you know, all other words that basically just mean confident. And so I, I would say now I'm the person that I've kind of always wanted to be. I grew up quite like a shy kid. So I kind of I always wanted to be like this. Madonna or like strong, confident person, but I kind of never really had, like, the tools to be that or I kind of didn't really see how I could be that? And I think things kind of really changed after my accident. I think I started to kind of really work on my confidence just before my accident. But then when I think back on it, I thought I was confident at the time, but I was only confident because of certain things, so because I had lost a bit of weight and because I built muscle and because I looked a certain way. Whereas if I had suddenly, maybe if I put on a bit of weight or if I had X, Y, Z had happened or whatever, I think my confidence would have changed a lot. I think my confidence was very dependent on external factors and how I looked at a particular time. Whereas now I think the way that my confidence is different is because it is it's more of like an internal thing. And I'm kind of happy with just being who I am. Like, so I put on a little bit of weight over, looked at and it's kind of not really affected my confidence just because I'm just generally just very at peace with who I am. But also learning that, like, the way that I look is kind of very, very meaningless. It's kind of pointless. And that kind of didn't really come until after my injury because it was such a life changing but a life threatening injury like when it happened, I didn't think I was going to make it through it. So when I came back from it and there was a massive period of depression and kind of low self confidence and image problems after, but once I'd kind of begin to sort of work through that, I realised that, like, you could have lost so much more, you know, you could have, you could not be here right now. And so I kind of was just really like, well, just kind of need to take life by the horns. I'm not, I've already wasted so many years waiting to be the person I want to be like, why don't I just become that person?
Gemma Styles: Yeah, it makes me think of Georgie Swallow as well who talks, talks kind of a lot about this as well. And has sort of, has talked about when she was going through cancer treatment and the way that, like, affected her body image. But then you come out the other side of it and you realise, how am I still, how am I still kind of thinking about what my body looked like then and what it looks like now, when your body has done so much and kind of you've recovered from so much.
Sophie Butler: Yeah. And that's kind of exactly the way that I thought about it, because, like I mean, the way that I think about it is my body has done so much for me, despite everything externally and internally that it has been through. And I just kind of think the way that I think of it is like, how can you be so petty? As to ask something as minor as something appearance related over your body when it's done all this for you? Like something that I get really self-conscious of is I have muscle atrophy in my legs just because I don't use them so yeah muscle atrophy and there’s kind of little to no muscle tissue in there. And it's kind of not really noticeable unless I'm standing up in physio or if I'm like getting in and out of the chair or something like that, but it’s something that I'm very aware of. And it's something that's quite common in spinal injuries. And whenever I find myself kind of getting hooked up on that, I kind of just remember everything that my body's done for me. And I'm like, everything it’s done for you. And you're upset because it doesn't look the way you want it to. It just feels like such a petty request. And I think because we live in such a hyper focussed world on appearance, I think it's it's it's not a… I kind of, I feel bad, when I'm kind of a little bit like, oh, you shouldn't be so obsessed with your appearance because I don't blame people for being obsessed with their appearance because we're taught to be, because it makes people money. But it is always just good something to have in the back of your head that's like, look, this, it's OK to feel this way because you've been taught to feel this way by so many different factors. But you just need to remember that, you know, deep down that this doesn't mean anything.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, yeah. I think that is a good way to look at it. And I think it's kind of- I find it interesting because like I hear you talk about self-love a lot, but then also talk about in terms of more body image, I've heard you talk about neutrality recently. So it's kind of that, like balance I find really interesting of like loving yourself… but when people talk about like self-love and all that, you know, that conversation, they’re quite often talking about their bodies and how they look. And actually that's not necessarily what's going to make you feel better. It's like you as a person, you're more than your body.
Sophie Butler: I think that's so often because I think especially as a woman and I talk about a lot from the perspective of a woman but that’s because… I am a woman.
Gemma Styles: I think that’s fair!
Sophie Butler: Yeah, and I can't talk about anything else personally, but also I think because a lot of these topics we talk about there is such a misogynistic undertone to a lot of the problems that we're talking about. So I think the big problem is, is I think that we are taught that our bodies are commodities. So when we talk about loving something or hating something to do with ourselves, it has to be our body, when really there are so many other parts of you there are so many facets of you and there are so many, like other things to celebrate and to love. And I know like for me, like when it comes to my body, I'm very neutral where I have days where I wear an outfit, that I’m like oh, you look really cool, like, I really like it. Or I like the way that my hips look in this outfit or whatever, or sometimes I just feel very neutral. I'm like, yeah, that's my body and that's that. I don't love it. I don't hate it in that moment. It's just kind of is what it is. And that I, I found for the majority of people to be a lot more achievable, and I think the self-love conversation becoming more mainstream is really, really great, but also I think there is a danger of it being a capitalistic tool where a lot of brands are now catching onto and being like, well, [sarcastically] we can't tell people to hate themselves anymore. [Gemma laughing] So we have to tell them to love themselves, to buy our products.
Gemma Styles: Oh my God that’s so true.
Sophie Butler: It’s so true isn’t it. So that's just one thing that I'm conscious of. So because a lot of people and a lot of my my audience and a lot of the audience that I communicate with and talk with, they might look at a lot of maybe like my self-love campaigns or different self-love campaigns in the media think, well, I'm not, I'm so far away from being at that level of confident that I couldn't do that. So that's where the idea of neutrality comes in and just kind of just accepting that that is your body. Any pretext around it is things that you've been taught to think about it, by society or by different things. So you don't have to love it or hate it. You can just be like, yeah, that's my body. And that's that.
Gemma Styles: It is what it is.
Sophie Butler: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. I mean, I totally agree. I think that's I mean, personally, I find that way more achievable, and like that would certainly feel closer to where I am. I feel like because people then will have those conversations and I feel I and anyone who has like a reasonable platform online, you will then get people who are like, how are you so confident? Like, how do you have so much faith in yourself and like what you look like and what you do and everything? And I don't I don't think everyone necessarily does. But it's kind of I think after a certain point, like you say, when you're so used to people commenting on you, it's almost like a self-preservation thing. You just have to, like, switch off and be like, well, this is what I look like. You're either going to like it or, you’re not, so I'm either going to like it or I'm not in any particular moment. And you can't change it in five seconds flat. So you just deal with it, I guess.
Sophie Butler: Yeah, you have to have that that foun- And I always call it, you to have that foundation of what you think of yourself. And that doesn't mean that you completely ignore what people, maybe someone's trying to give you construc - I can’t say that word - constructive criticism, there we go. Maybe sometimes maybe someone’s trying to do that for you and you. And it is a time to sit and listen. But for the large part, if it's ever someone if it's about someone commenting on your body or your appearance or your experiences and people trying to minimise that, then other people's opinions don't really matter whether they're good or whether they're bad. And that’s something we touched on before. You have to have that like that foundation of like — I know who I am, and I know what I think about myself. And that's kind of all that really matters.
Q&A
[music]
Gemma Styles: Every week, my guest and I will be answering your questions and the first one comes in from Karina.
I'd like to ask Sophie about the language used towards Disabled people, how she feels about it, and ways in which we can help to improve it.
Sophie Butler: Yeah, this is a really it's a really good question, because I think the first thing and this is probably going to cover all of the questions I get asked is it's always important to bear in mind that the Disabled community is so monumentally large and everyone has different experiences based on their Disability or based where they live, their surroundings. So I think something that really puts a lot of people off is that Disabled people have a lot of differing opinions. That shouldn't put you off the conversation and being involved in trying to be better. It should just help you to see the nuance in the conversation. So with that in mind, language is really, really important because the way that we talk to each other and the way that we communicate is a big sign of our respect for each other. But also, you know, you're communicating with someone because they are human. And I think a big problem with the, well with the Disabled experience is I think a lot of times we are dehumanised and when people brush it off like, but it's just it's just a bit of language. It's just a word. It's not- it does have a lot of weight to it. So the way that I personally sit on language is you normally to kind of really simplify it. You have like person first identity and then you have identity first. So person first being ‘person with a Disability’ and then identity first being ‘Disabled person’. So I identify with identity first, which is ‘Disabled person’. And that's because a lot of the time, from my personal experience, I've had people try to erase my identity as Disabled. So you'll hear things like, but you're too young to be Disabled or you're too pretty to be Disabled or I don't really see you as Disabled. And I kind of think, but I am. And I need you to see me as Disabled so that I can have the measures in place. And so you can just see me for who I am. Like, it's really that simple. And so that's why I prefer identity first, but also as well, because it puts the word Disabled out on the table and I get to control it. There is like a big discussion right now, normally from non-Disabled people of saying, like, I don't like to use the word Disabled. I'm like, why? It shouldn’t be offensive to you. Like, I find it very uncomfortable when people are so offended by the word, so I like to just put that word out on the table like it's there, I own it and it's almost like kind of reclaiming it and just being like, look, it's just an identity. There's nothing bad about it. And we just kind of need to get comfortable with saying it with. Some people like to use person first, which is ‘person with a Disability’, which is their own personal choice. And I think whatever each Disabled person decides for them is totally valid for them. But it's when non-Disabled people start to decide for you, which is when it becomes an issue for me. So people might like to use person first identity if maybe they struggle to be seen for anything other than their Disability. And maybe they kind of want you to really know that, look, I am a person and I think what I believe and what that person believes who maybe goes with that, is totally valid. But it just comes from having different experiences.
Gemma Styles: That’s fair. Do you think it would be a fair question to literally, like, ask someone what kind of language they use? Like now we try and normalise, you know, like asking someone what pronouns they prefer, for example. Would you say it's comparable to be like, how would you like me to refer to your Disability, or would you prefer person first language, like is that a reasonable question?
Sophie Butler: Yeah, I think it's kind of it's like a heavy question. And I think it's something to bear in mind is that a lot of Disabled people might not have actually thought about it before, because when we're not all so engrossed in advocacy work and thinking about all of these things, a lot of, some Disabled people might just be a little bit thrown by the question at first and just be like, I never thought about it before. And I definitely don't think it's a bad question to ask personally. I think especially in a work space where it's going to be like continuous engagement.
Gemma Styles: Yes.
Sophie Butler: I think maybe if you're just meeting someone on the street or maybe they're with your, you have to have a drink together or whatever, because you've got a similar friend group. Might be a little bit of a loaded question for such a casual meeting.
Gemma Styles: Yeah of course.
Sophie Butler: But I think if you're yeah, it may be very like a work space and you're going to be maybe, I don't know, maybe you're hiring them or maybe you're joining their team. It might just be good just to be like, I just just want to run something by you just so that we're all on the same page and and just kind of bring it up so, do you prefer ‘Disabled person’ or ‘person with a Disability’ and just kind of just being very, just being very honest and just being I'm happy. I just want to follow your lead and what you prefer.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. OK, well, that's partly a question from me so thank you. So the next question is from Sage. And she says,
As a new grad about to enter the rehabilitation field, what is the most positive and/or negative thing that a health care provider has said to you? Making sure that my future patients feel empowered is so important to me. I would love any advice from you.
Sophie Butler: Oh, that's a really sweet question. I get a lot of these questions that people are going into a field and they kind of want to know what they can do. And that's kind of always really nice to see, because I think sometimes, and it's not just the health care field, it's every field. But you kind of get this kind of like mentality where, well, things have always been done this way. So they will be done this way. But I always really love it when people have this kind of very open attitude to actually learning from the people who they're working with and who have actually experienced these things because it's very different to be on, because that's when I think back to like my nurses and my doctors and physios and stuff like that, like they know a lot more me than me in terms of science stuff. But they don't know what it's like to be that person in the bed having the treatment done. So I always kind of really I really, really do appreciate that kind of willingness to learn more about the actual experience itself. And in terms of good and bad experiences. I mean, I've had a lot of both. I do go through and it was more like because I went - when my injury happened, I had to go to three different hospitals. So I was in one hospital for my surgery. And then I was kind of basically in and out of consciousness for two weeks and while I was in and out of consciousness got moved to another hospital, which was closer to home. I barely remember it happening. And I was there for about another five weeks and then I got put into a spinal rehabilitation unit. So I've seen a lot of different practitioners and I've been in a lot of different settings and I've had a lot of bad and some very good experiences as well. And I think really, when I think about a lot of the bad, and really quite traumatising experiences that I've had. And they're the ones that kind of really still haunt me and keep me up a lot at night. The actual accident itself has left me with a lot of trauma. But it was the way that I was treated after that, after the accident and by a lot of health care professionals, that has really stuck with me because it's your first taste, it’s the first page of this new life. And I felt that I was dehumanised in a lot of my experiences. And there's a lot of experiences I could go into. But the really the core of it was dehumanisation. So small things, like doctors would talk about me in like the third person, but whilst being at the bottom of my bed and talking about such really graphic details of my injury and what's going on inside my body. But in front of me and I'm a little bit like I can hear you, you know, like, and it's scary. And then there's like just, just really, really like like horrible things that I've heard. And I think at the time I didn't process them because I was in survival mode, but then now like a few years down the line. I'm thinking back on them and thinking, God like that was so dehumanising. So I think really at the core of it is just remember that you're you're going to see so many patients come in and out through your door, but every single one of them is a human. Every single one of them is probably scared, probably feeling lonely and probably very, very worried. But they all they all tick in very different ways. As we learned from the start of this podcast, they probably all have very different niche interests.
Gemma Styles: [laughs] Yeah.
Sophie Butler: And I think a lot of the best experiences, you know, maybe they're a history geek or a science geek, I don't know. But a lot of the really good experiences that I've had is where OTs or physios have really done like, not, not really intensive work on getting to know me, but done little things in getting to know me, so I think like asking simple questions about maybe music or TV or literature or whatever you think that person might be interested in. Something that just makes them feel like they have a connection with you and that it doesn't just feel so clinical and so and just so inhumane. I think just making, seeing that person as a human.
Gemma Styles: Absolutely. Thank you for that. This question is from Ceren. Who says,
I have rheumatoid arthritis. Sometimes I feel like I'm asking for more than I should, especially on a public bus. My pain is really bad if I don't sit down. But since I'm only 18, people look at me weird and think I should be standing instead of sitting down and taking a seat away from perhaps the elderly. As a young person with an invisible disability, what should we do?
Sophie Butler: Yeah, I think this is a really good question. And and I always kind of feel a little bit like, when it's questions about outside of my Disability, I always kind of feel like, do I have to have a right to be talking about this and whatever? But I I'm going to talk about it in a way of which I can relate is sometimes when I pull up to a Disabled parking bay so a blue badge bay, people are very, very hot on if you're Disabled or not. It's a big, big problem, especially in Disabled parking bays. And I show up in my nice car showing up to the gym or whatever, and people look at me. And because of all the stereotypes that people have about Disabled people and bearing in mind, I'm always driving around on my own as well. I drive around on my own most of the time, so people look at me and go, you’re not Disabled. And that's literally just as I pull into the bay. And obviously I have, I'm kind of lucky in a way of which I can get my blue badge out. I can get out in my chair. And then people normally avert their gaze very quickly because they realise that they're being very rude. But I have had instances where people have not even waited for me to get my badge out and have stormed up to the car and been like, You know this is the Disabled parking bay! Then I’m like yeah, being paralysed, I think I know that! I'm very aware of that! It's very, very different to what upset the person in the question is experiencing, but it kind of relates back to that whole theme where there is this big problem in the Disabled community, and outside the Disabled community, where it's almost like you have to prove you're Disabled enough? And it's even with like even with my Disability, and I always say that I've got a very stereotypical Disability because I'm a full time wheelchair user, paralysed. That's the first thing people think of when they think of Disability. But because I'm young and independent, I do sometimes get people question my Disability a lot. And either, is she faking it or do you really need X, Y, Z, whatever.
Gemma Styles: [annoyed] Oh I mean, come on...
Sophie Butler: Exactly. And it is a very, very real thing that that kind of a lot of people experience. So I totally understand what this person is saying and why they would be made to feel guilty for requesting certain things. But I think the thing that, that I can just really advise is knowing that you you know what you need more than anyone else. And I think it's really important to establish to yourself, right I need X, Y, Z. So it could be I need a seat on the bus. I can't stand for long periods of time. And that could just be one of your things. I don't know any more. You would know better than anyone else. So I think it's just really important to establish to yourself your needs and know that they are worthy and you are worthy of this help and with this need. So when it comes to actually putting it in place or asking for it, you already have that foundation of you knowing what you need yourself. And it's really, really hard to do. I struggled with it. I still do because I'm stubborn and sometimes I'll be cases where I'm like, I should have asked for help there. And sometimes I've maybe gone too far, like push myself too far and maybe and end up hurting myself because I'm like, I can do this independently. It's fine! And it would have been so much easier if I just had help and just asked for help. But I didn't want to because I didn't want to feel like a burden? So I think it's just important to say that, like, whatever you need, your accessibility needs, you are not a burden. Everyone to some degree needs some level of accessibility needs. You know, even if even if that's like you, so say like for you, if we went out to dinner and they said to you, Right Gemma, it is accessible for you, but you've got to fly across a river of lava to get there, you'd be like, no, it's not accessible, is it? So and that's obviously a very dramatic example. But everyone in some way has some kind of access need. It's just that I think people would really only see it as an “issue”. And I use issue in quotations there. People only see as like a thing when it's for Disabled people?
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Sophie Butler: Which is, which is always very interesting to me. But yeah, just knowing that you are entitled to your needs and I think you need to work on that foundation of understanding that you need this. And what everyone else is thinking really isn't your problem. And don't feel guilty about like you're taking it away from someone else, because at the end of the day, you still you still need what you need.
Gemma Styles: I love that answer. I think I feel like that will will help them, which is really nice. I always love it when I feel they'll really like that answer.
Sophie Butler: Not just giving them the image of you flying across a river of lava. [laughs]
Gemma Styles: Last question is from Chelsey. And she says,
My question is, how do you tell your parents to stop body shaming you? My dad recently got into a relationship with a woman who was super fit/healthy. She always makes comments about how I need to start eating more healthily or to exercise more. But personally, I really like my body and how it looks. Almost every time I'm around my dad and his girlfriend, they say something negative about my body.
Sophie Butler: Yeah, this is a really hard one. And I think I think questions about family are always really hard because I think there is a degree of we don't know everything about this family and we only get like this snapshot. So and the way that each family deals with every single thing in their life is so individual. But I think really at the core of it, it is just body shaming. So I'm going to talk about it within how I would deal with body shaming generally. And it's I think it is even more upsetting because it's your family. It's a place that you want to feel safe and trusted and kind of comfortable. But it's really, really nice to hear that person say that. Actually, I quite like my body because it sounds like they have a good foundation of their self-worth there and a good image of themselves. And I would say that they just really need to hone in and focus on that. It sounds like they already have the good foundation, so just work on building that. And I think one thing that's always really important to remember, and I think we kind of forget that families can do it as well, but people project all the time. And sometimes when when someone says something to me, which is body shaming or whether they say anything to me, I always kind of take a second, I think, do they mean this or are they projecting? And I think only you can know in that moment whether they are. And I'm not saying that the dad and the girlfriend projecting, but something to consider. They obviously seem to be very focussed on their health and what they consider health to be, anyway.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Sophie Butler: So it's important to remember that people project all the time and it's actually really nothing to do with you. And I think that moving on from that, it might, I don't know if you've ever tried to have a conversation with them and just be like, look, this is not something that I'm interested in. And it's a bit like someone's trying to constantly give you a flyer and you have to just be like, no, I don't want the flyer, I’m very, very happy with where I'm currently at. So it might just be one of the situations and it might be that if you're very open and honest with them and just be like, look, this is how I feel and this is how it's making me feel, that could lead to a possibility. It might lead to more conversations. I can't say it would work out well. I don't know how your family would take it, but at least you can know that you have put that boundary in place. Whether they choose to respect it or not, it's up to them. But you've put that boundary in place so that it's out there. It's on the table of how you feel about it. And then you can continue to work on that foundation of your self-worth and what you consider health to be. I think we've, I've experienced it with the fitness industry in general. People have such a narrow idea of what health and what fitness is.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely.
Sophie Butler: And it's and it is it is a big, big problem. And so I think it's just important to remember that what their idea of health is and what their, what their interests, what their fitness interests are don't have to be yours. I think a lot of the time parents see their kids as extensions of themselves rather than being their own individual people. Now, I'm saying this is someone who doesn't have kids, who’s not interested in having kids. So I don't know if I'm even qualified to be saying that. But I know that it's definitely something that some parents do do. They see their kids as an extension of themselves and not their own people in their own right. So that's just something to remember. You are not an extension of your parents and you don't have to do as they do.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, they don't get to decide what you do with your body. Like, yes, they had a hand in making it, but that's where it ends.
Sophie Butler: Yeah. [Gemma laughs] You're I mean, they're not entitled to for you to live your life down to every degree of which they want you to just because they're your parents, which I know some parents would probably try and slap me for saying. But you know, that's just the kind of way that my dad raised me is it is just you don't owe me anything just because I brought you into this world. I have a great deal of respect for my dad. I'll do anything for my dad. But he understands that I'm my own person. And and that's that we’re separate to each other.
[music]
Gemma Styles: Remember, if you want to get in touch with us or have any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com. And if you want to know what the upcoming episodes are, keep an eye on @goodinfluencegs.
Recommendations
Gemma Styles: Before you go, I've got three things that I ask of every guest, and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about in this episode. Could you please give us a recommendation for something to read, something to listen to and something to watch?
Sophie Butler: Yes. So I'll start off with read, because I'm a massive book geek. I love books. So I would say when it comes to learning more about Disability, there are so many great books about Disability out there. Some of them are more autobiographical. Some of them are more theory based. And I think especially some of the theory based ones can be quite heavy and they put a lot of people off. And so I would say if you if you are Dis- even if you're Disabled and you're wanting to read more from other Disabled authors or if you are non-Disabled and you're just wanting to see a little bit more behind the curtain and hear a little bit more about these experiences and kind of dip your toes in, I think a really great one to start with, I’ve got it beside me so that I get it correct, is Sitting Pretty: the view from my ordinary, resilient Disabled body by Rebekah… And I'm going to butcher this surname… Taussig. I probably said that wrong, but that’s the book.
Gemma Styles: It’s fine, we'll put it in the show notes.
Sophie Butler: [laughing] Yeah, me being like, I know I’m going to mess this bit up, but it's a really, really great book. And what I really like about it is it's got a lot of nuance to it and it covers so many different topics regarding Disability. And it's from a perspective of, I think, her own experiences. But it covers a lot of different theories as well and a lot of different issues. So that's what I'd recommend to read. I literally recommended it to all of my friends. I did an event earlier in the year for International Women's Day and it was with Gymshark and they were like, you know, we can we can send stuff out what do you want to send people. And I was like, please send them this book. Like, it's so, so great.
Gemma Styles: Send them books!
Sophie Butler: Please send them books, get people to read more. But it's really, really great. And as a Disabled person as well, I, because when I went into it, I'd consider myself already to be quite confident. When I went into I just felt very seen? I just felt it was almost like I would just be like, look, holding up a mirror and being like someone's having similar experiences to you. So it's really great in that respect as well. And then something to watch... There was a really great documentary by the BBC that came out earlier this year, and it's called Silence: The Hidden Story of Disabled Britain. And it's really, really great. And it covers basically the history of how Disabled people were treated in Britain. And it's it's a really, really great documentary. And it covers quite a lot of ground. It's quite, I don’t know if it’s quite long, it's maybe like two-ish hours. It's one of the ones that's really great to kind of watch and give your full attention. So maybe pin in, right, Friday night, Thursday night, whatever, play in the diary. And I'm going to give this a good watch. I'd really, really recommend that. And then to listen, I don't have any Disability-related recommendations, but as we’ve known that I have loads of weird and niche interests and we've spoken a lot about body love and confidence and stuff like that. So I am actually going to recommend Lizzo’s 2019 album.
Gemma Styles: Nice.
Sophie Butler: Cuz I Love You, pretty sure it’s called Cuz I Love You, because I just think she's amazing. And me being a big music geek, I think with… oh this is me really going into it now. But I think with Lizzo, I think she has such a great musical talent. But people I think get too sidetracked by the work that she does in body positivity and that kind of stuff that I think when it comes to musically, I think she's massively underrated and I wish people would pay more attention to that side of things. But also the lyrics just make you feel so good. So that is what I wish everyone would start their day with a bit of Lizzo and that's what I'd recommend you to listen to.
outro
[music]
Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening and thank you, Sophie, for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using. And if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating and review as well. Your reviews make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week!