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intro

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Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who'll help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about self belief: being put in boxes we didn't ask for, self-help books and how we access them in different ways and how #bekind also needs to apply to yourself. So joining me this week is Laura Whitmore. Laura is a TV and radio presenter, actress and writer. This episode was recorded in lockdown back at the beginning of 2021 before Laura went on maternity leave. She is, of course, now back and currently on our TVs presenting season seven of Love Island. I spoke to Laura ahead of the release of her debut book titled No One Can Change Your Life Except For You, which quickly became a Sunday Times bestseller and is now out in the world and available for you to read!

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Laura Whitmore: The worst things that people say to each other. Can't be as bad as what we say to ourselves. Like I'm like whatever comments I've ever had online. And like I've said worst things to myself, I can never be as bad as that. And I think if we can't even be a little bit nicer to ourselves, like, how do we expect other people to. 

discussion

Gemma Styles: So I'm going to start by asking you about your new book, of course. So I guess to begin with, just how did you come to write a book about this kind of theme of sort of self belief? Like is it- would you say it's something that's been a strong theme for you throughout your life anyway? 

Laura Whitmore: It's something I've definitely had to get better at. And it's strange because basically the book idea has been on the table for like a few years now and everyone has ideas of what you should do, what you shouldn't do and notions. And, you know, I had a few different people coming to me with ideas of what I should write about, and none of them really clicked with me. So this is kind of a long time coming because I was waiting for, you know, the right publishing group that would let me write what I wanted to write about. And it took me a long time to get here, if I'm honest, because I've you know, over the past few years, I've been writing articles a little bit more than I have before, probably a little bit more comfortable in my own skin than I was when I started out in television, takes a while to kind of get there. And I kind of got to the stage last year where I knew what I wanted to write. And I had written lots of bits and pieces, but I've written like articles and I've written like short films, but I've never written like a book, like, that's a lot of words in one go. [laughs] So it's trying to decide how you're going to write in the longer form and what those themes would be and how they'd all kind of come together. So it's kind of been a long time coming and now it's like. It's yeah, it's so weird to be even talking about it because I feel like I started it so long ago.

Gemma Styles: I feel like the way that you talk through the book, you're obviously talking about themes overall, but there's a lot of experience from your life that you're kind of drawing on to then sort of explore these things and reflect on things that are a bit more universal.

Laura Whitmore: You can only really write about what you know, can’t you like. But yeah, I like that you say universal. You kind of want to draw on these themes that other people can relate to and that I was very aware that I didn't really want to write a memoir. Like I've had suggestions you write about your time at MTV and all those crazy stories and all, and you should write about this or that. And I didn't really want to write about that. But there are certain parts of my life or the certain experiences I've gone through that I felt more comfortable writing about, which I've touched on before about being female in the industry, about imposter syndrome and about perspective and optimism and different things like that. And I'm like and it's easier to kind of talk about things that happened to you. And it could be anything. It can be anything from like meeting big, you know, rock stars to like my mom and dad when they were younger together, both talking about the same holiday. But my dad's perspective was very different to my mom's they were both talking about that same holiday. But he said it was crap and she said it was amazing. It's like, how do, how can two people experience the same thing and have different reactions? And that kind of made me look at life and, you know, in a wider sense and go, well, you know, it's all about perspective. We can all experience the same thing, but how we react to it makes such a difference. So, yeah, I guess I had to kind of draw on elements in my own life, which is hard as well, because I've spent so much of my life trying to protect myself and not talking about myself because I interview other people or I talk to other people. So that's been really. Yeah, it's kind of had to get comfortable with that. 

Gemma Styles: Do you think it's been beneficial for you kind of the process of writing the book? Because there's obviously some stuff in there where you're reflecting on things where you didn't feel great when they happened. Do you think it's been beneficial that you've gone back over there under the lens of, you know, now knowing what you know about confidence? 

Laura Whitmore: Hindsight is great, isn't it, and time is great. And that's why I always try and not maybe write while publicly anyway how I feel like I mean, I have notepads of like how I feel at the time and it's like rants and all sorts. But perspective is really important. Hindsight's really important. You know, there's issues I've talked about, about situations in work where I've been made to feel uncomfortable. I've talked about miscarriage, but never at the time I felt comfortable. I had to kind of wait until I was in a space where I felt I had the head space and I was in a healthy position to be able to talk about it. So I think that's really important because just because we give away some parts of our lives doesn't mean we have to give away everything. We have to protect ourselves. So, yeah, it's kind of like a minefield. But you're right. It is really, it has been really helpful to me. I'm not going to lie there's been some times when I've written stuff and then like I wrote this without thinking anyone else would read it. And then I then I read it back and then my publisher read it back and it's like, willI say this now? Is this the right book to talk about this particular thing in? And I think there's certain chapters where I kind of was like, I don't want this book to be about just this subject because it's much broader. So I have to be careful what stories I decide to tell now, what stories I don't decide to tell. And also, I'm really lucky like I've met loads of people in in my life through like living in Ireland in a small town moving to London, which is just like crazy and so different to what I knew. So I've kind of tried to put all of that together as well. Like I've learnt so much like the last chapter is called She Learns, kind of based on that Alanis Morissette song. And it's all about learning because I mean, this book isn't about telling people what to do. It's just, you know, a little bit of my life with things that I've picked up along the way. And and at the end of the day, we can kind of look to other people and we can blame other people. But it all comes from us. And that's taken me a while to get to. 

Gemma Styles: Mmm. I feel like a lot of people have probably written self-help books, but it doesn't necessarily always mean that you're then sharing your own experiences. It's like, yeah, like say if you want to like a therapist, they're not usually telling you what's going on in their life kind of thing. So I feel like it's quite different when you're, you know, reading through someone talking about these different issues and also saying, I've been through this as well, by the way, you know, I'm not telling you what you should do and what you're doing wrong. It's just, you know.

Laura Whitmore: And and I also kind of come from this book, and I'm very lucky that I've had privilege in my life. And I was very lucky in getting a break in television. And not everyone will have the same luck or privileges that I have. And it's not about that. It's about whatever situation you are in. So I didn't wanna alienate anyone with my stories either. So, yeah, you’re right I kind of draw on anecdotes, but then I move on from that. And there's a lot of I did a lot of research as well into different topics like imposter syndrome. And, you know, this idea of imposter syndrome, which I think I think everyone experiences, I don't know, like I've been places go, what the hell am I doing here or like, why am I doing this? Or like. And then you kind of think, oh, this whole ‘fake it till you make it’. And then I realised, like, everyone feels that way. Like everyone I've ever interviewed, from musicians to actors, sportsmen, everyone's a bit like someone's going to figure out I shouldn't be here and I'll be asked to leave. And I was really interested in this imposter syndrome. So I started like looking into it. And it was coined by these two ladies in the 70s because they realised a lot of women were were suffering with it and especially high achieving women who are in these positions that were mainly male dominated and kind of felt like they didn't belong. And of course, men feel like that now as well. But the research initially was done to look at this whole phenomenon of like, what is this like? It's not even an illness, but this feeling of inadequacy and where is it coming from? And I just recently in the last few years, it's come up quite a lot when I talk to people who are like releasing a new album out there on my radio show or or any situation actually, like it doesn't matter who you are, whether you're a teacher or a doctor, like we all have these feelings and why do we feel that way? And we're kind of our own worst critics. And how do we get over that? 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, for sure. I think it definitely is something that I would say at least most people feel.

Laura Whitmore: Yeah.

Gemma Styles: And that's kind of what I was going to ask you like. I feel like even before when I've when I've said to people on the podcast or addressed the listener, if you will, and sort of said, you know what, what what do you want me to talk about? What are the things that you care about? What do you want to learn about? What you want to hear people talk about? And this whole thing of, you know, self belief and confidence and, you know, just being who you are and being comfortable with who you are is one of the most common things that people ask me to talk about personally. Ask, you know, to talk about on the podcast and have someone on for. And I think it is something that everyone seems to feel at some point, but also it's something that we look at other people and assume they don't feel for some reason.

Laura Whitmore: Yeah. And sometimes the most confident person in the room is actually the person with the least self belief. And I kind of grew up in this culture. I don't know, is it just an Irish thing? But like, you couldn't big up yourself. Like, you couldn't be like, well done me for like, I just have this I don't know, I don't take compliments well. And I don't, I don't compliment myself? I don't be like, well done Laura for doing that today because you just feel like, oh, I feel full of myself. Like you just and then I remember I think I talk about it in the book as well, like first time I went to America and like, it's a different not everyone there. But there is a different mentality of the American dream. And you can like big up yourself and it's OK. And it's actually really good rather than this like almost over apologetic for being in the room. I'm sorry for being here and taking up your time, because that's what I felt like I was like beforehand. And I remember someone telling me, OK, the meetings are going well, but you need to like when they ask you what you've done, like tell them what you've done. And but I would be like almost apologetic going [shy noise], you know, and it just because I just didn't sit easy with me because I didn't grow up in that kind of culture. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. I've definitely had that happen before and I think that probably is quite a British thing as well. But also. Maybe a thing that women do quite a lot anyway. But I've had the same thing in meetings where, you know, you're kind of supposed to pitch yourself in certain situations?

Laura Whitmore: Yeah and it feels weird!

Gemma Styles: And people, you know, like, what are you up to? And I'm like, oh, I don't know. I'm just pottering about I do my own thing, really. And then whoever I'm with will have to be like, well, no, you're doing this and you're doing that. And I'm like, oh, I suppose so but nothing that good! 

Laura Whitmore: But yeah, it's mad though. And so many people, so many of us are like that. I mean, you don't want the extremes either because they didn't have someone like a Trump character who's like — too much self belief. [laughing]

Gemma Styles: Yeah no more of those please.

Laura Whitmore: No more of those characters please. But I think there's something nice in recognising your own success sometimes. And like also I talk about like giving compliments and sometimes we assume people know they're good or know their achievements and saying nice things to each other is lovely and we forget to do sometimes. So, yeah, that's self belief and then believing in other people. But I also like, I don't know about you like, when people say self-help book like so many people run away from that, including myself, because my mom would have a lot. My mom read a lot. There's always loads of books in her house. I've picked up a lot of books and I remember the first time I saw, like, I think she had, like, feel the fear and do it anyway.

Gemma Styles: Mm hmm.

Laura Whitmore: And I like what is this self-help book and this kind of these negative connotations of of being whimsical. And I think there's nothing wrong with it. I think self-help, if it comes back to it, it's it's like you're not- the book can't tell you what to do, but you take from it what you need. And different books will resonate with different people, fiction and non-fiction, whatever, you know, different stories. This is why we like different music and it's just kind of finding what works for you. And there's no better way to find that than through other people's stories. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think that's so true. It makes me think of… So this is more of a personal story from me. But I think when I first started speaking to anyone like Doctor-y about kind of anxiety and depression and that kind of thing, when I was probably 18 or 19. One of the first things that the doctor had recommended to me was a book about getting over low self-esteem, because that is something that like has been an issue for me for ever. But I just remember at the time being like, and I bought the book that she suggested that I buy. And it was I think it was literally called Overcoming Self-esteem, and it sat on my shelf. And I never read it because it was such a, like, intimidating figure read kind of thing. And it felt really clinical and like I was trying to fix something that was wrong with me. Whereas when you're kind of just listening to somebody else talking and saying that, you know, they go through similar things, I would find that a more helpful thing to read at this point, I think. 

Laura Whitmore: Yeah, well, I'm the same like, I, I like — the best things for me. If I'm feeling down, the best thing I can do is like talk to a friend and have that community around you. And even, you know, if you can't talk to a friend, there are certain books and there are podcasts, that’s why I love podcasts, that you just feel like you're listening to someone else's story and you kind of feel like you're their friends and you're in the chat, like anyone listening to this now, like, yeah, welcome. You're in our chat now and you're like part of it.

Gemma Styles: Respond!

Laura Whitmore: Respond. Please do! And I think it's yeah, I think that's how my head works. Like, I love that and you know, and a lot of things I don't talk about publicly, but I'm talking about them privately. I'm talking to my mates like, you know, I'm ranting if someone's pissing me off or if I like- Back when I was single, I would talk to my mates about it, like because I we do need to talk and we do need that outlet. And that's kind of finding what works for you. And, you know, that could be through a self-help book could be, through a medical book, maybe through like a lighter book, could be through poetry. And it's just kind of working out what works for you, because what works for me may not work for you, but we talk about it. We all realise that that book that you had, that you probably never read the stuff in that book that probably is beneficial to you, but maybe it just wasn't displayed in the way that would connect with you, you know, is probably better off for you to, like, listen to a podcast about it or, you know, have a conversation with someone about it. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, exactly. It's kind of a more of a like feeder into a topic rather than being something that feels quite scary. 

Laura Whitmore: Yeah, intimidating, because some of those books are really intimidating and and and titles as well. Like, I remember when I had to like come up with the title of this book I- because I'd written the book already and I knew what it was about. But it's like picking a title is really hard because like where, like, where do you begin? I'm like like even as it is it's really long and I just like we went through so many different options. And again, I didn't want it to be intimidating. I didn't want it to seem like it was a memoir, because it's not it's not necessarily a memoir, even though there’s anecdotes in there. And it just kind of came back to like I love music and music has always been in my life. And, you know, I started my TV career at MTV and doing festivals and even on my radio show, like every you know, when we do these big guest that we get on, I always ask them the lyric they live for, like, what's a lyric in a song that means something to you. And lyrics are kind of like affirmations to me. And what I love about lyrics are that, you know, a songwriter can write a lyric of a song and it could mean something to them, can be about a Break-Up or it could be anything. But then that song writer doesn't really own that lyric anymore? Because whoever listens to it will receive it and interpret it in a different way. And I remember my producer asking me what's the lyric I live for? And I was like, well, my first album, I was five and it was Wilson Phillips and it was this song called Hold On. And I just remember this lyric because no one can change your life except for you. And that's when my publisher was like, well, that's the that's the book title. 

Gemma Styles: That's so good. I also physically cannot read the title of the book without singing it to myself. [laughs] It's such a great one. And then the other makes me think about that scene in Bridesmaids and everyone’s just so happy. 

Laura Whitmore: I'm so thankful for Bridesmaids as well, because I remember like I've had this album since I was like a kid, like back I think it came out in 1990 or something. And I was tiny and my mom got it for me and then Bridesmaids came out and a lot of people, you know, that's how they heard about it again. And I feel like this new generation of people know about the song because of Bridesmaids. I'm like, yes!

Gemma Styles: For sure, definitely. So the more kind of personal themes and things that you've talked about in the book, when you've kind of, I assume, you know, started talking to people about it, are there particular things that people seem to be really attracted to that they know you're going to talk about in the book so far, like, what do you think people seem to be really wanting to hear you talk about?

Laura Whitmore: That's a really good question. I hadn’t really thought about that because I don't know if this is the book that people would expect me to write initially? There's definitely themes in there that I've written about before, like the first chapter. So basically the book kind of centres around a poem I wrote last year called ‘She’ and kind of talked about how we can all be everything. You know, you can be vulnerable and you can be strong and you can be tough and you can be rough and. You can be all of these things, so I kind of wanted to draw on those topics and a lot of topics I've talked about before, about being female in a male dominated industry and, but then the first chapter of the book is all about, you know, She is Strong and women in my life who are really strong and looking back at like previous generations, I think we're really lucky in this time. Where we live now, we have a lot more say and power than the women who came before us. So I look back on that and I look back on the excitement of the next generations to come and what they're going to achieve. And so I think that's a theme I've talked about a lot. I've talked a lot about, you know, choice and consent. And that was through, you know, Ireland, obviously being Irish and growing up in Ireland. And then a few years ago, they were repealing the Eighth Amendment, which was about pro-choice and giving women the choice of abortion if it was needed in certain cases. And there's lots of things I've talked about before and I was like, how do I kind of connect them all together? And then, as I mentioned, like in imposter syndrome. So I think people maybe will know, I'll talk about the female thing, because I've talked about that quite a lot. But this is a book really important for men as well. And actually, the first person I got to read the book was a friend of mine, a guy. Who's written, he's an author. He's written books before. And I really I kind of was really like I wanted to write something that was important for both genders. And and I didn't want to alienate anyone because I think I can talk about myself so I can talk about women as a woman, because that's all I know. But it was lovely to for like my male friends who have read it to be like, oh, wow, I didn't realise that or I didn't... There was an extract from a newspaper eight years ago that I saw. And I was like mentioning me and a few other names. And I think we were all, it was like a charity event. And like every single man was talked about by like broadcaster, sports, sports personality, musician. And every single woman was you know, it was like Lisa Snowden, ex of George Clooney, plus size model Daphne, blah, blah. And then I was like and I was like and I like no one had noticed that, but I saw that. And I'm like, can you not see what like can you see this? And I was only like saying to a few guys going, oh my God, I didn't even realise reading that, like the stark contrast and how wrong that is. And I remember at the time like tweeting about it and actually the online version of the paper changed. But I just think people didn't see it. And sometimes you have to kind of say that. So I hope, like stuff like that connects with people just to see things differently. But then, like I mean, there's so much other stuff in there I talk about to some stuff that didn't even mean to. 

Gemma Styles: No I mean, I think you're totally right. Like, it is important, I think, for anyone. So like not- I've talked about this on a podcast episode before about, you know, like taking in media and taking in stories from people who aren't necessarily exactly the same as you. So, like, whether you're a woman or a man or neither, non binary, or who you know, whoever you are like, we were kind of saying these are more like universal experiences. So whether you're coming from the same perspective or similar or you're kind of learning more about how maybe somebody slightly different is experiencing these things, too, and you're feeling like, you know, oh, actually, maybe I'm a bit more similar to that person than I would have realised. I feel like that's always something really helpful as well. 

Laura Whitmore: Yeah, and I do I kind of when I mentioned the She in the poem, I'm like she is all of you like she is like my dad. She is like my other half, my friends, my family. And and I think that's really important that even though we have different stories and it's important to to read other people's stories and people who aren't like you, but you will be surprised by what resonates with you and the similarities.

Gemma Styles: Mhm. Absolutely. I think that that reminds me of something that like — one of the parts of the book that I’ve read so far, that stood out to me, it was about you were talking about, you know, not fitting in boxes. And that’s kind of boxes that other people put you in or boxes that you put yourself in? I feel like it all. Like things quite often come back to that I feel like.

Laura Whitmore: Oh my God! I'm sick of boxes. I like I talk, oh, I hate it. And it's like, who do you want to be like or where do you. I said that thing. I'm like, please don't ask me where I see myself in 10 years. I don't know where I see myself tomorrow.

Gemma Styles: Oh my God, same.

Laura Whitmore: I have no idea. I'm like, I've no idea. Who knows. Probably still at home. But yeah, people love to put you in a box. So you’re like this presenter. So I start on MTV and like this is the route that you should do. And that I remember when I do a radio show on BBC 5 Live, which is probably not the radio channel, you expect someone from MTV to kind of go on as much more chat show. It's much more topical. And I'm like this young blonde girl on it where before it's being quite political and sports orientated, and older white male and and I mean a great channel. And I'm so happy to be part of it. And it was nice to kind of do, to beat expectations, I talk about expectations a lot because there's all these expectations of what you should do. I hate the word should [laughs] I hate it. And so, yeah, I think it's like really like, yeah, it's really important for me anyway to kind of break those boxes because I give them to myself. And maybe that's one good thing about, and I do the comparisons between, you know, us over here to our American counterparts. And I couldn't believe, like in the States, how open they were to you can be doing like you can do a podcast, you can be a writer. You could like be on television, you can be an actress and you can do all these things. While over here, it's kind of like will stay in your lane. Don't confuse the audience. I've actually been told don't confuse your audience. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I, I get that as kind of like an industry kind of thing as well. Like, well who are you? Like who are you trying to sell yourself as? And it was like well when people look at you. Who are you?

Laura Whitmore: I’m just me!

Gemma Styles: Yeah exactly. And so I think that is something that a lot of people would find really difficult.

Laura Whitmore: Yeah. But I think that I think you get that everywhere. Like, I think like, I've had friends get that like in all sorts of jobs. I say like my like friends who are teachers and stuff, you know, if they try and do anything that's outside the set curriculum or they're trying to, you know, change up their, the way they teach, you know, you're kind of told this is the way we do it and this is the way we stay. And God forbid that we go outside that box. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, exactly. I’m trying to- it’s something off like a TV show or film or something that it always makes me think of where they go back… I'll remember the reference in a minute, but when they talk about like you — it was a story about how before somebody was making a roast dinner, they would, like always cut the end off a piece of meat and then put it in the pan. And it would just, it was just the way that they'd always done it. And then they went back and like asked their mum and went back and asked their grandma and it was like, oh, because that's how we always do it. That's how we always do it. And it turns out that like two or three generations before, it was because the pan was too small. So they always had to cut the end off! [laughs]

Laura Whitmore: That’s so funny. And then it just becomes a tradition without knowing why.

Gemma Styles: Exactly.

Laura Whitmore: Yeah, you're right, though. And it's OK. You know what? I love questioning things. It's OK to question things. It's OK to be like, why is that the way? And that comes to, you know, when I talk about being a female in the industry and how we're talked about or how- you know why women are so much talked about with visuals and aesthetics? And, you know, when upskirting used to be legal, like we just accepted it because it was always the way before us and we'd see people in the industry were treated that way. So like they were treated that way. So the new generation will be treated that way. That's just the way it is. And then I'm like, at what point? Like, yeah, it's like kind of looking at that meat thing and the cooking thing like when do we go back, how far do we go back and realise actually there was a mistake made and that should never have been allowed in the first place. You just should have had a bigger pan. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, exactly. And I think it does take us a good amount of shift as well and kind of a goodwill in support of people who've gone before you because it's so easy and so many different scenarios for people to be like, well, I had to have that struggle. So now it's your turn.

Laura Whitmore: So do you. Yeah.

Gemma Styles: Whereas actually you need the people before to be like, no, that was awful. And I don't want you to have to have the same thing. 

Laura Whitmore: I think you're right. You know, I saw someone on Twitter write something like that recently or online. Be careful what you read online, but saying, oh, well, like the previous generations, they just sucked it up and dealt with it. You know, why are like these younger generations complaining about things like, you know, the previous ones I like. Yeah, but like women also sucked up the fact that they couldn't vote and they had no choice over their bodies. I'm like, they had to deal with lots of things quietly or stages where, you know, they weren't allowed to use protection or I think, you know, like mad stuff. I'm like, there's lots of stuff that people dealt with that's not OK. So if we didn't complain about or we didn't create change, we wouldn't be where we are now. So, yeah. Just because other people had to experience it doesn't mean it's OK for future people to.

Gemma Styles: For sure. And also, yeah, exactly what you say, like just because things have improved on certain aspects doesn't mean it's like, well, be grateful for what you've got now. Stop pushing for any more improvement. 

Laura Whitmore: Yeah! No, never stop pushing for improvement. Never. 

Gemma Styles: Where would that get us? That goes into talking about, you know, generations and how things change. On that kind of note, we keep saying that, you know, perhaps a lack of confidence or like searching for that amount of self belief is like a universal thing and something that most people probably experience. Do you feel like now or, you know, in more recent years or particularly at the moment with anything going on, do you think that's something that's become more important and people are struggling with more so maybe than they used to? Like do you feel like this is a really good time for your book? Does it feel like the moment to you? 

Laura Whitmore: I think this I mean, it's weird how life works out like we're in the middle of a pandemic where a lot of us are at home at the moment. And I try, I try to find the positives? I write a lot about optimism and hope. Sometimes people don't trust people who are optimistic. [laughs] But I think it's yeah, I think it's really important at a time like this, which is really difficult and negative. I acknowledge people are going through really tough times, but to try and take the positives from it. And one of those positives is that were we've slowed down a little bit, that we're reflecting a little bit more, that we're looking at ourselves a little bit more. And, you know, I say like we it's it's a power thing as well. If we don't have a lot of power at the moment, we don't have control. We can't get on flights and fly around the world. But what we can do is maybe make our home a nicer space, maybe be not, you know, check in on a neighbour or like now we have a neighbour who, like, bakes every Sunday it's so lovely, leaves treats on the doors.

Gemma Styles: Oh that’s so nice.

Laura Whitmore: And I like, we didn't really know each other beforehand because I live in London and no one talks to anybody. [both laugh] And so, you know, I do think this time, like it's like a book like this, my book coming out now at a time where I do think we are looking at ourselves a little bit more going, OK, I can't do this, but what can I do to make my space and my every day a little bit better. 

Gemma Styles: Mhm. Yeah. I think you're right as well in terms of like when you think about social media and everything and everything that we haven't been able to do and so much of our lives went even more online than it was before. Because let's be honest, social media was pretty all encompassing before anyway. And then we were all kind of trapped indoors a bit and everything was online because that was the only means of communication we had. And I feel like now that it's you know, we're going on for a year of this, and I feel like a lot of people have kind of flopped the other way and realised how much they were comparing themselves to other people or realised, you know, what hits their confidence was taking because of the an kind of trying to be a bit more bit more kind to themselves now and trying to foster their own self belief by realising how that negative behaviour could have impacted them. 

Laura Whitmore: Yeah, I agree. And even like, you know, there's a whole thing about people saying, you know, be kind to each other now, which is lovely. But I think one of the things we need to look at is being kind to ourselves, because we always say be kind to, you know, people. But I'm like, if you can't be kind to yourself, if you can't like some of the worst things that people say to each other can't be as bad as what we say to ourselves. Like I'm like whatever comments I've ever had online, I'm like I've said worst things to myself. It can never be as bad as that. And I think if we can't even be a little bit nicer to ourselves, like, how do we expect other people to, or give ourselves a break, like even like we're at home a lot more and we can't maybe achieve as much. And sometimes even at home, I'm like, OK, so I'm not working today or I'm recording at home today. But maybe like while I'm here, I might paint the spare room and then I don't do it. And I'm like annoyed at myself and I'm like, you know what, Laura? You got up this morning and you brushed your teeth. Well done.

Gemma Styles: You’re fine.

Laura Whitmore: Applause Well done. You're fine. 

Gemma Styles: [laughs] Yeah, I can definitely relate to that as well. It's the whole thing about the moment you try and like, you know, I've got so much time. I should be so much time to get things done. And then actually, no, we're all having such a weird experience.

Laura Whitmore: Oh we’re all procrastinating and I’m like, there's so many things because life has always been so busy and I spend a lot of time travelling with work. And I've been- this the longest I've ever been in one place without getting on a plane and all these things. I was like, oh, I'm going to do this and I'm going to do that. And I'm like, I didn't do that. So I was like… just didn’t do it!

Gemma Styles: Exactly that. Something that I definitely wanted to ask you was about something that I read in your book, which was about talking about being average and about how, that's no bad thing, because this is something that I've said for years. And there's a conversation that I've had with my friend so many times. And I think, like, it's a funny one because not everybody has the same experiences. And it might be, you know, that you read about someone doing something that maybe you would never do. And you think, oh, the way that doesn't apply to me then, because it's so far out of my kind of, not comfort zone, but my sphere, if you like. But thinking about self belief, do you think that can still kind of… what am I even trying to say, I just think, you know, the the fact of the word average, most most people are average because that's what the word average means. 

Laura Whitmore: Yes, exactly! But people we want to we're told to be the best. But you can’t be the best at everything.  

Gemma Styles: Exactly. Yeah. So I guess my question that I was very awkwardly trying to get to was where does self belief fit into that kind of thing? So when you talking about, you know, confidence and, you know, being the hero of your life, as it says, you know, like on the cover of your book, can that apply when you're just, you know, trying to average live your everyday life, you know, or does it mean, you know, does it mean you have to believe that you can go to the moon or like have this have this, like, I don't know, be on telly or something? You know, if you're looking at you? 

Laura Whitmore: Well, I ambition is important. I think it's really important and really needed. And like, you know, one of the taglines I have in the front cover of the book is How to be the Hero of your own life. Like I'm not the hero of your life. Do you know what I mean? Like you're the hero of your life. So you're the best you're the best at being Gemma. Like, you know, to me, like like I'm terrible at being Gemma-

Gemma Styles: Debatable.

Laura Whitmore: [laughs] no no believe me, you are the best! And I think that's OK. It's like we're the best at being ourselves. We're the best in our bubble. And the problem is we live in a world where we — that's not good enough. We're compared, we're constantly compared whether it's in a magazine where you wear a dress and someone else is wearing the same dress. So you're like, well, we must compare them and see who's wearing at the best, rather being like well Laura's wearing it in her way and this person is wearing it their way. And that's fine. But this whole ‘average’ thing is in a generalised way being like what I was saying about like just getting up in the morning and just going to work. And that's an average day for people and well done for doing that. And I think we should applaud that more. And we should like, yeah, average is success and just getting on with it and just surviving, like, I even think just surviving this year and getting through a really tough year and finding the good and the positives in really dark times is is so important you don't have to like. Have you know, I've written a book in this time, and I realise that's like quite a big achievement, but you don't have to have written a book at this time. It's fine. You could just have like, read a book. [laughs] Like that's good. 

Gemma Styles: I mean that was closer to the level that I’ve achieved during this year. [laughing]

Laura Whitmore: Or binge watching a TV series, you know, finish it off like that's fine. And yeah, it is that difference between being the best and then the average. And like being the best in your life and and the ambition because my ambition and my purpose and I talk a lot about purpose versus plans because I don't really like planning stuff, but I have a purpose. I know what my purpose is. And that might change and it might shift a little bit. And I have different goals along the path to get to my purpose. But like, what's the reason I'm doing this? Why am I doing this? Without having a full plan. Because plans always go out the window. There's absolutely no point. But but my purpose is totally different to your purpose, you know, and that's OK. And I think we sometimes too much just compare that. Well, this is why this person did it. So this is why you have to do it. And I did like I don't have the answers. Like, I'm very aware I'm not an expert. I'm not a doctor like that book that you just suggested to get about depression and things like that. Someone who studied knows really well. I'm like I only know what I've kind of lived through and what I've talked to my mates through. And I hope that resonates with people because it's probably in a much, I don't know, hopefully digestible format. But like all I know is what I know. And and like all I know is, like sometimes just being average in a day is fine and good because it's the best that I could do that day. 

Gemma Styles: Exactly. I mean, I'm 100 percent on board with the with the average movement.

Laura Whitmore: I’m like, I got the Zoom working, I have Zencastr running simultaneously. Like, I'm like, you know what? Well done, Laura.

Gemma Styles: Honestly getting through these techy bits of recording. Is an achievement in itself. For sure.

Laura Whitmore: Thank you.

Q&A

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Gemma Styles: Every week I'll be asking my guest some of your questions. The first one comes in from Anza, who asks,

Being a writer, do you mainly have one technique to go about writing? For example, do you have an idea and just go for it? Or do you make a list of events you want to include? And how do you get over writer's block? 

Laura Whitmore: Oh this is good. I also feel, speaking about imposter syndrome. I feel like an impostor saying I'm a writer, considering there's so many incredible authors out there who I know and some I've just read the work of and like even reading that, I'm like, who am I to say how, you know, what what to do? But all I know is again, what works for me.

Gemma Styles: Yeah of course.

Laura Whitmore: And that I'm I like I'm quite an emotional writer. So if I'm angry about something like in the moment, like I'll write it, I won't put it out anywhere for the love of God, I will not put it out because I need time to edit it, but I'll write when I feel it because I feel like that's the most honest I can be. And then sometimes I'll come back to it again, maybe some time afterwards with a little bit of hindsight and that’ll kind of adapt it around. Like a lot of the topics I'll write about will be something that's come up in my everyday life or I've read something I've had a reaction or a conversation with my mates like or even like doing this podcast there’ll be certain topics. I'm like, oh, maybe I should write more about that. And writer's block is weird because, like, I've always had the luxury of kind of writing about things in my own time. And then then you get a book deal and then you get given a deadline [both laugh] and you're like, so we need 60 to 70 thousand words by this date. And you're like, oh, so I can't just like, write in my own time. So I, I kind of I yeah. For me, when it comes to things like that, I kind of spell one of my friends actually suggested I do a thousand words a day because we could kind of work that out. But in some days you just don't feel like writing generally something just not in the mood. So there was definitely days when, like, I couldn't do these thousand words, but it just meant the next day I did two thousand words and but I always had to kind of keep that balance just to kind of balance it out, because otherwise, I mean, there could be a month when I didn't feel like writing. And then some days you just get an idea or, I don't know, a little spark or a bit of energy and you'd like write three or four or five thousand words because you were just in that moment. So I'm probably quite emotional as a writer. I feel like I have to have that connection. There are definitely more intellectual writers who probably have a better system, but that's just I'm just quite a reactive person. But I always say just, yeah, write it and then keep it to yourself for a little bit and look back on it. 

Gemma Styles: I feel like I'm probably much the same as you in that, being quite emotional. I used I used to write a column and I remember my editor saying to me, like, your best ones are always when you're a bit pissed off about something.

Laura Whitmore: Yeah.

Gemma Styles: So I don't know what that says about me, but I think it's true, like on the opposite side as well. If I'm upset about something else, I can't just force myself to sit down and write. I found it really difficult. I think you have to kind of be in the right headspace.

Laura Whitmore: Yeah. No you, you have to be in the right headspace. That's really, really important. And. If you're not, that's OK, that's OK, and I think I learnt from talking to different people that, you know, I was actually speaking to Marian Keyes, who's a brilliant novelist, and she's like, it takes her ages to write a book. And she's on her 14th novel now. And they're hugely successful Sunday Times bestsellers all over the world. She's like, you know, some writers, right? There are a novel in six months or so she goes some of mine it might take years to write and that's OK. So it's that thing as well. I like don't just assume that if you're a writer, you're writing constantly with these brilliant ideas. And for every great book, there's probably a terrible, like half book written somewhere. 

Gemma Styles: I feel- I think it was you. I saw you tweeted the other day something as well about Marian Keys that's jogged my memory. It was that she she didn't start writing books till she was in her 30s. I love that!

Laura Whitmore: Yeah. And she yeah. She was on my radio show recently and yeah. She was saying she didn't get into writing. She wrote a first book when she was in her 30s, she'd moved from Ireland to London and she kind of had this other life beforehand and she probably wouldn't be the writer she is today if she started earlier, because everything happens for a reason. And then I kind of got obsessed with this and I saw, like Samuel L. Jackson didn't start making movies ‘til he was in his thirties.

Gemma Styles: I mean, I love those things.

Laura Whitmore: I love these things!

Gemma Styles: As someone who's just turned 30 recently. I read that and I was like, oh, brilliant, I’ve got so much time! [both laugh]

Laura Whitmore: You can, like, become an astronaut. 

Gemma Styles: I don't even need to know what I want to do yet. 

Laura Whitmore: And also, it's now again, the boxes thing, it's never too late to change lanes, but it's never too late to do that. That's absolutely fine. Yeah, I did find some I find comfort in that and other people's stories and other people's not other people's struggles, but the fact that everyone struggles to some degree and everyone questions themselves and everyone's a bit unsure of something. So I'm like, if someone who's top of their game now didn't even get into the game until not that long ago. I mean, that's quite nice, isn't it?

Gemma Styles: For sure. Just got to find your thing. 

Laura Whitmore: Just got to find the thing that makes you happy. And if you're doing something now and you're not happy, like, get out of it, it's OK. You can you can stop and you can change.

Gemma Styles: Permission.

Laura Whitmore: Permission, give yourself permission. Read my book. [both laugh] No one can change your life except for you. No one else is going to like- if you like with Marian or like I'm sure when she was working in London like no one came over to her and says, I bet you you're really good at writing. Here, write a novel like she had. She was writing short stories that she sent to a publisher. She had to make that change herself like the same, if you know your you're a carpenter and you really want to get into acting like no one's going to go, hey, you! Do you want to be in this film? Like unless, you know, unless you're Harrison Ford... But like, I just think you have to kind of put yourself out there a little bit. And you see that's worked for people in the past. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. Next question is from Esther, who asks,

When do you begin to see the difference in how you practise your self belief in your life? 

Laura Whitmore: Oh, that's really good. I think it's different for every person. This is the thing. And also, what do you, what do you expect? It comes back to expectations. And I talk about expectations in one of the chapters that don't expect to be like I'm going to start giving myself compliments and saying nice things and suddenly my life is going to be great and it's going to be brilliant because it may not you may not see difference the way you want to see it. So be careful of those expectations. But I think it all comes down to I said to you before I said like, I hate when people say, where do you see yourself in ten years? But if I do have to answer the question, I'll say happy. And I think the difference is, are you happier than you were before or do you feel a little bit more in control? So it will be different for everyone, Esther. But I just think careful of those expectations you give yourself, because, again, I'm talking about the Marian Keyes story. You may want to be a writer and it may not work out for you don't have those expectations, but are you happier where you are now than where you started out and that could take any time from immediate to like years.

Gemma Styles: Yeah. Next one from Nicole, who asks,

As a lot about negative body image comes from the media, is there any form of media you choose not to engage with to help protect yourself and your positive body image? For example, are there certain types of TV shows and movies you wouldn't watch or pages you wouldn't follow on Instagram? 

Laura Whitmore: That's a really good question. And I do think I do talk about this as well, like curating your own feed. It's annoying because they keep changing the algorithms of online because you can see other things that you don't follow now. That really annoys me because I'm like I follow these people for a reason because it's what I want to see.

Gemma Styles: That's so true.

Laura Whitmore: But then every now and things pop up and I didn't choose to follow that. I think that's absolutely fine, even when it comes to, I know you’re talking about body image. But even like recently the news like — I have to watch the news for work, I can't watch it every day. It's grim. Like, sometimes I need to watch Real Housewives or Selling Sunset, and that's OK. And then sometimes I watch like a documentary about murders because that's where my mood is. And I think it's really important to balance what you see. And if, you know, there's certain. Might be certain people online who trigger me, and it can be because I'll compare myself with them and it's OK to mute them for a while. Do you know? It's OK to mute? Like, if I've got a few friends who who are trying for children at the moment and I'm like, you know, don't. Maybe they're not in a place where they want to see someone talking about their pregnancy all the time. And I'm like, that's OK to mute that for a while. And it's not about unfollowing or anything wrong with the person talking about it because everyone's allowed to talk about their own experiences on their page in their own way, and you have a choice in what you take in. And if you don't want to take it in, then you have control over it. I've talked about tabloids before and certain newspapers and things you take with a pinch of salt. And I'd like things to change, like, you know, when a woman is talked about and she's “flaunting her curves” or she's “flaunting”. I know I was walking down the street and apparently I was like flaunting my my bump and I'm like not flaunting my bump. I'm wearing a coat and I'm trying to get bloody coffee, piss off, you know, like I'm like but like how women, like men don't “flaunt”, do they really or show off their curves. I'm just constantly flaunting! Women are flaunting! 

Gemma Styles: Existing in public.

Laura Whitmore: Like just existing, breathing. Walking is flaunting. And I'll tell you that like really annoys me, that language that's used. And I try not to I mean, as much as I'm a human, but I try not to engage too much in that. And I also when I see it, I realise everyone gets it. And that doesn't mean it's OK.

Gemma Styles: Yeah.

Laura Whitmore: And, you know, you'll see comments like myself, like that thing about myself. I was like, oh, for fuck's sake. Like I didn't even know I was being pictured and I was just trying to walk and it was cold. And I was wearing a coat and I see... So I try to kind of avoid because I know that upsets me when I see it about myself. So if I see it about other women, I'll try and not engage with it because I understand, I probably understand it a bit more. But then I underst-, like, I love watching shows like Real Housewives. I love Love Island. I love that. I love there are like people out there who are happy to show their life and talk about relationships. Like we all love gossip and we love it. Like we love gossip about other people. And like there are people who are happy to be talked about and want to be talked about and like and stories and narratives that are out there, some are real, some aren't real. And and then I think they're there and we can enjoy them. It's when things are kind of put up through media and press that there's no consent over. And we're talking about other people's lives that we don't know about and we don't know what people are going through. And I think that's the difference in trying to analyse that. And curate that is important. But yeah, I think there are certain things that definitely trigger me. And so it's important to. Yeah, to know what. And that can be like I like as I said, the news like the news triggers me sometimes certain shows. I was watching a show recently which is amazing and I watched all of it. It's A Sin. It's brilliant. It's like it's incredible. By Russell T. Davies and it's incredible. But I watch the first two or three episodes and I was speaking about the eighties and speaking about AIDS. And there was a lot of comparisons to kind of what we're going through now with the pandemic, because it was people didn't’t really understand how this virus was spreading. And it was just a week where I was finding it all a bit much. So I was like, I really want to watch this, but I can't watch it today because I'm just not in that place. So I need to put on Disney+ and watch the Mandalorian. And then I went back to it. And it's an incredible series and I finished it and I highly recommend it. But I just knew that day wasn't the day I was going to watch it. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, I think it translates to quite generally good advice as well. Like, you don't have to make set rules for like you never consume this type of media. You never look at those type of people, not “type of people” what am I saying? 

Laura Whitmore: Yeah, but but you know. But yeah. But like, I like fashion magazines, you know, like I just it's a certain but then some days I don't read them. It's all about like your place and how it's triggering you, what it's doing to you. 

Gemma Styles: Yeah. So I kind of just like paying attention to how you feel like I'm like letting that be enough of a reason to change what's what's going in your eyes. 

Laura Whitmore: Definitely. Definitely. 

Gemma Styles: Okay. Last question from Prachi, who asks,

When giving presentations or any situation where the spotlight is on you, your self-consciousness acts up to the point you're scared of even smiling the wrong way. What's the best way to just let it be and not let those insecurities get in the way of doing your job? 

Laura Whitmore: That's a really good question. And it's something that, like practise makes perfect. And you know what's really mad? Like I won a competition to be an MTV presenter. And I remember like my friends from like secondary school or maybe primary school, even if I was really shy as a kid, like, I didn't really speak a lot. And I love drama and speech and drama. And that was like my little safe space. But like in the classroom, I'd really be afraid to put up my hand to answer a question. It's weird. I was always the quiet, even in my family, at big social events, I wasn't necessarily the loudest person. And then to kind of go on television and work in a situation where you kind of think you need to have that confidence and you need to be, you know, the person who is driving your conversation. And yeah, I just think even to say people like, how did you get that job? Like, you didn't even say anything in school, but. This is actually so when giving a presentation in a situation where, spotlights on your self-consciousness acts up to the point you're even scared of smiling the wrong way. I'm looking at this, Prachi, and you're saying smiling the wrong way. And what is the wrong way? I'm assuming you're thinking that other people who are watching you are going to take it up the wrong way or perceive to be something that you don't want to be. I think a lot of that comes from we think too much about how other people view us. So when you're doing a presentation publicly rather than think, how do I want to do this presentation, what's my purpose of this? What's the message I'm putting across? I'm like, I've been given this job because I'm good at this. I wouldn't be in this job if I wasn't good at it. I know what I'm talking about. I'm going to give this presentation, but then our head goes to places where it's like, well, Mary sitting in the second row or on Zoom will be judging what I'm wearing or the mess in the back of my Zoom or something else. And once or oh, you know, am I smiling weirdly or am I standing weird? And as soon as you start thinking about what other people are perceiving you, that's when the downfall happens. So I would always say Prachi, like bring it back to you. And and I'm saying like when I used to interview like people I remember like my first day of MTV, I’d never been to L.A. before. I just moved to London from Ireland, which is massive. And then they put me on a plane to L.A. and the first day of the job they're like, So you’re going to interview Coldplay. And I'm like, OK. And I remember like interviewing Chris Martin, who's the nicest man in the world, but like, rather surprised, like he doesn't know it's my first day of the job. Like, he doesn't know that like he doesn't know that this girl has no idea what she's doing. So I just went in there going, I'm here because obviously someone on MTV thinks I'm good enough. I've got my questions. I know what kind of conversation we want for our show. It was a show around the Video Music Awards, all nice and friendly. We're in L.A. was very fun. I'm going to go with that and take away that A) it's Coldplay. And he's probably been interviewed by all these people who have a lot more experience than me. And kind of when you take that out and you kind of bring it back to yourself and you're like, I'm just going to do this for 15 minutes and get through it. And then afterwards I let my mind wander. That's how you get through it, because your mind afterwards you'll be like what the feck was I doing like I'm so out of place, like this little Irish girl who's like, gone from like working in a radio show in Ireland where she's interviewing, like local politicians and councillors. And then like interviewing Chris Martin, like, you know what I mean? I'm like, it's just. But he doesn't know that. So it’s fine.

Gemma Styles: Yeah, totally. I feel like in that kind of situation as well, it's part of that thing of like no one's ever quite as interested in you as you are. So like I've had this conversation with myself as well where I'll be like, oh, I don't know if you do anything. And it's kind of like, OK, well, what if I mess up a little bit and I just kind of have to think like if someone else messed up a little bit, like I wouldn't really care. Or like even if you do something like you do a weird smile in a presentation or whatever just think to yourself, is one of the people watching the in three days time going to be having dinner and thinking, wow, she smiled really weird in that presentation. No! Like nobody else will care that much, it just doesn't matter. 

Laura Whitmore: I agree. Everyone is so self obsessed with thinking about themselves. They're not thinking about you. If they think for a second about something, it'll be gone. It'll be gone and they'll be back thinking about what they're wearing that night or the next day. And I love that. I think if you just go back and realise everyone is so involved in themselves to be worrying about you.

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Gemma Styles: If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, follow us on Instagram or Twitter @goodinfluencegs and email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.

recommendations

Gemma Styles: Before you go, I've got three things that I ask of every guest, and that's if listeners want to learn more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please give us something to read, something to listen to and something to watch? 

Laura Whitmore: OK, I am so mortified for myself and this goes back to if I was like, I need to move away from this Irish way where you hate to big up yourself, but I'm going to say I wrote a book and I'm really proud of it and I would love people to read it. And for me that's a big thing because to be able to say that-

Gemma Styles: Well done!

Laura Whitmore: Thank you!! Because I'm like, I dunno, I just feel like I can't recommend my own book. But, you know, we've come a long way and I'm going to do it at no one can change your life except for you by Laura Whitmore It's my first book. I recommend it. It's very good. A lot of work went into it.

Gemma Styles: Proud of ya, Laura!

Laura Whitmore: [laughing] Thank you. And then something to watch. Wow. There's so many good things to watch at the moment. So it kind of depends on your space, if you've got ten minutes. There is a brilliant TED Talk on vulnerability by Brene Brown, which I reference in the book. And it's just, it's just great. If you have a little bit longer. I would recommend bingeing on a TV series. Cobra Kai on Netflix. It's a follow on from The Karate Kid. And I'm obsessed. 

Gemma Styles: I love a good telly recommendation. You. We were talking earlier about, you know, what's productive and what isn't. Like, I haven’t read that many books over the past year, but my God, have I watched a lot of TV.

Laura Whitmore: That's good, that's achievement in itself. As I said, watching the average amount of TV. And then song, there's so much good music at the moment. But I'm going to say Wilson Phillips brought out their first album in 1990. And it's self-titled and it's very good. And you can’t listen to it without being in a good mood. So stick it on. 

outro

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Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening and thank you, Laura, for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I would love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're listening on. If you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating or a review as well. Your reviews make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week!