S02E12 Transcript: Elizabeth Day on Failure

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Gemma Styles [00:00:00] Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome to another episode of Good Influence, the last one of season two, if you can believe it. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest will help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about failure, how our cultural conversations around failure have changed, the failures we relate to the most, and how perspectives on failure from older people can teach us lessons while we're young. So joining me this week is Elizabeth Day. Elizabeth is an author, journalist and broadcaster. If you're a big podcast fan, you probably don't need me to tell you that. She hosts the hugely popular podcast How to Fail with Elizabeth Day, in which she examines life's supposed failures with her guests and reflects on how these failures affect change us. Her latest novel, Magpie, is out on the second of September and has been described as a tense, twisting story of jealousy, motherhood and power.

Elizabeth Day [00:00:55] I think it's really important that we know when we look up to someone and we might aspire to the levels of success that they too have that really difficult moments.

Gemma Styles [00:01:07] So I guess I'll start by asking you so a lot of people will already be familiar with how to fail your podcast because it's such such a huge platform. How did you actually sort of get into talking about failure in the first place? How did it come to be a thing that you were focussing on in making the podcast?

Elizabeth Day [00:01:25] It came about through Failure in my own life is the really short version of the answer. But the slightly longer version is the iPhone, my 30s, a really intense decade of transition. And on the one hand, professionally, some things seemed from the outside to be going according to plan in there. I was a Sun newspaper feature writer. I published my first couple of novels inside and personally it didn't feel like that to me. I was actually quite unhappy in my job and I was in a marriage that would implode in divorce. I tried and failed to have children. I had unsuccessful runs of IVF and then my marriage ended. It took me about a year to get into dating after that. And when I did start dating someone, I made deliberately different decisions and I started dating someone who I thought represented like the person I'd become. I had got all this self-knowledge from all the stuff I'd been through and that relationship I had so much hope for. But it ended really briefly out of the blue three weeks before my 30th birthday. And I was like, yeah, exactly. It was the worst Break-Up I've ever had. And I would include my divorce in that, weirdly, because I think looking back, I potentially used that new relationship as emotional scaffolding to avoid looking at the wreckage of my marriage. So when that relationship ended, I was almost also processing the divorce. And it just feels like such a key time, particularly for a woman 39, because you're looking down the barrel of your 40s. And for me, I'd always wanted to have children. And suddenly I was like, oh, I'm single again and alone. And that seems like vanishingly improbable now. And it was that moment that I think was one of the lowest moments of my life. The I kind of really re-evaluated what I wanted from life, who I was and where I've been going wrong. And that made me start thinking about failure. And I realised that for every time that I had failed, I'd also survived. And I wanted to look into that more and just come to the end of a very long answer. So now my life as a Sunday newspaper journalist was incredibly privileged in many ways, and I got sent to interview a lot of celebrities. But the focus of those interviews were always their successes. It was always about the film they wanted to promote or the album they were proud of or the book they'd just written. And that's just the way of a lot of newspaper journalism in this country. And I was quite frustrated by the limitations of that. And I wanted to have an interview format where it felt more vulnerable and more authentic. And that's where the idea of how to fail came from.

Gemma Styles [00:04:23] I mean, clearly, it was a great idea because it took off like nothing else. And I mean, I think there must have been a lot of people who then felt the way you say you did in terms of being frustrated and that we only see the good things. I mean, you said that when you were in that job and it looked maybe great from the outside, that you weren't necessarily that happy. Do you think that because nobody was talking about failures that maybe contributed to a lot of the, like, imposter syndrome, but a lot of people seem to have because you don't realise that everybody isn't as happy as you might look. On the outside,

Elizabeth Day [00:05:01] definitely, I think that's such a good point, and I think the rise of social media, which, you know, I love it for many reasons. One is that I met you put that in quotation marks, has actually done that in real life. But there's so much amazing stuff happening on social media. But one of the side effects is that you're constantly comparing your insides to everyone else's curated perfect outsides and you're the only one who knows what a neurotic mess you are. But then you're comparing that to like an image of Kim Kardashian looking amazing in Costa Rica. So social media, the rise of that happened at the same time as I was starting out in journalism. So the two things were definitely enmeshed. And I think you're right that that the conversation around Fada has opened up. I'm very honest. I think I've been a small part of that. But at the time, you know, I would go through things in my personal life, like the fertility issues I've touched upon, and I wouldn't tell anyone at work about it. I didn't feel safe enough to do that. And I think that's still the case and a lot of workplaces. But I'm now a massive advocate of being able to bring your full self into any situation you deal with. Yeah, that doesn't necessarily mean crying at your desk, but it does mean potentially finding a confidant and being able to say, actually, this is what's happening and this is the fullness of me, like I'm this person at work and all this other stuff going on. For whatever reason, my life was very compartmentalised. And I think part of that was also that I was an inveterate people pleaser and I wanted to appear perfect in order so that I wouldn't let anyone down and so that people wouldn't leave me in romantic terms and so that I wouldn't let my employee down and I wouldn't get such. I guess, like I think a lot of women particularly struggle with that. And it means that we're often the ones who do all the overtime. We're often the ones who don't ask for pay rises, and we're often the ones who are exploited as a result of that. So all of that was happening for me.

Gemma Styles [00:07:03] It makes me think as well. It's kind of it sounds like breaking down almost that very British thing as well as kind of saying, how are you? Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine. How are you? I'll be Clark, who's like a sketch comedian who I follow on Instagram does. I love her. She's great, isn't she? The one that she does? What, the Workspace fine. How are you. Fine. How are you. Like that is so true of how we've talked to each other for so long. And I feel like when you start having more conversations like you say, you should be able to take your not not everything, not all your baggage necessarily, but you should be able to, you know, have honest conversations, whether that's at work or. Yeah. With people in your life when you're done. I think that's turning failure from something that feels really embarrassing. I feel like you've definitely been part of that conversation that's turned into something a little bit less embarrassing. And maybe we can also be like, look at me. I'm a huge fan,

Elizabeth Day [00:07:54] but thank you for saying that. Yeah, I totally agree. I think the thing about failure, one of the benefits is that it's incredibly democratising. It's going to happen to everyone, whether you like it or not, no matter how much illusory control you think you have, your life in the universe, you don't. And failure will come in unexpected ways. And so the fact that you can then be honest about something that everyone else sort of experience is a really amazing connecting force. And I'm a big believer, as I know you are, that actually when we're vulnerable, that's the source of solidarity between humans. That's like how we can understand and empathise with each other, but going have very British thing of pretending, OK, I interviewed Ruby Wax for my podcast and she said that instead of asking How are you? She asks, how's the weather in your head today? And I mean, I laugh. I know, because we are talking about the weather. So it's like it's like a really

Gemma Styles [00:08:54] good way of saying we get both of the conversations all the way up. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I have to be fair. I feel like that makes sense. That's kind of how I think about it sometimes anyway. Like, oh just I'm just feeling a bit grey today, which is quite often how we will talk about British weather.

Elizabeth Day [00:09:12] Yeah. I mean we're doing we're recording this on one of the hottest days there so far. So my wet internal weather is extremely sweaty right now.

Gemma Styles [00:09:19] Yeah. Internal, external, just sweaty, sweaty. So with all the conversations that you have now had about failure and other people's failure, do you find there are certain sort of categories of failure that people engage with the most in terms of when people are listening? Do you tend to get more messages and replies when it's things about like work or things about relationships, like what are we really neurotic about? But we like to hear other people talk about?

Elizabeth Day [00:09:48] I love that question and I've never been asked it before. So.

Gemma Styles [00:09:52] So I love my favourite.

Elizabeth Day [00:09:55] Yeah, me too. When people say that to me, I'm like, yes. That's such a good question, one of the things that I discovered very early on, which has honestly been one of the biggest gifts of my life because it's made me feel less alone and more understood, is that people really resonated whenever I or my guest spoke about fertility or about anything that has historically been deemed a woman's issue. And I put that in quotation marks. So recently I have the broadcast Emma Barnett on and she spoke about endometriosis. Had so many people get in touch. Any time I've ever spoken about or written about my own fertility journey, I've had an enormous amount of messages and beautiful emails from people sharing their stories, women and men, actually. And I think it's because that's one of those things that just been marginalised through history. And traditionally we as women have been expected to kind of get on with things behind closed doors. And especially if you are a black woman, for instance, going through childbirth, the chances are that your issues will be overlooked. Black women are five times more likely to die in childbirth than white. Those sorts of things get an enormous response. And then I think any time anyone who seems to have it all sorted from the outside. So yeah. Yeah, a famous successful person, I'm often asked why I why I get big names on the podcast and why I don't interview people who are like proper failures you're never heard of. And my answer is twofold. One is, I don't think I would be ethical. I don't think they would necessarily want to do an interview about when they're in the thick of it. But secondly, because I think it's really important that we know when we look up to someone and we might aspire to their levels of success, that they need to have that really difficult moments. So any time a famous person has spoken about anxiety or mental health, that has had a huge impact. So I think those are the key areas. And then the single factor that comes up again and again and again, which is funny, is I fail driving tests.

Gemma Styles [00:12:21] I've got all of those stimuli. And then I just never drove ever, really.

Elizabeth Day [00:12:27] But you see, that's what's fascinating, because the failed driving test is never just about the driving test. It's about the anxiety you might feel when you're on the road or it's about like your history of perfection and feeling like you had to ace everything first time. And it's super interesting as a portal into someone's psyche. So that's that's a failure that comes up repeatedly.

Gemma Styles [00:12:49] Yeah, well, that would definitely be me. Is a bit cliche then, because, yeah, that was I did one driving test when I was. I think I was 18, I didn't I didn't start driving straight away when I turned 17 because I was so anxious about it and I finally got to this age where driving test I messed up because I was so nervous. But the worst part was I knew I'd failed it within the first two minutes and then I had to do the rest of.

Elizabeth Day [00:13:12] Oh, torture.

Gemma Styles [00:13:14] But yeah, I just I just didn't then do it. Still is like the biggest practical roadblock in my life. Anxiety throws up. I just can't make myself learn to drive. I do want to one day, but I just I haven't managed it so far.

Elizabeth Day [00:13:27] So what happens, like in pre pandemic times when we were all allowed to go on holiday and he would go on and you hire a car, do you have to rely on someone else? Well, obviously you have to rely on someone else to do that.

Gemma Styles [00:13:38] Yes, yes. I mean, luckily for me, my boyfriend drives, which is I mean, I kind of like but I'm yeah. I don't know. I'm very aware on if we're going to drive somewhere. I always kind of say, do you want to drive or would you like do you not want to drive. Shall we get the treadmill. Because I know that by sort of bringing that plan up, I'm instantly saying, will you have to drive us? Yeah. Yeah. I don't know. Maybe one day I'll pull my weight a little bit more in the hours.

Elizabeth Day [00:14:02] But can I just say something really counterintuitive here, because I'm also I'm not a natural driver by any means, and I failed my test first time. Got it. Second time. But but I still feel really anxious. I'm like, who is trusting me rollinson wheel, especially when I've got passengers. That's the thing that like puts my anxiety through the roof. But I find driving in L.A. really helpful because the roads are straight, the cars are automatic. You're quite often stuck in traffic, so you're not really moving and you're listening to music and like driving down Sunset Boulevard and it feels like really good, only fun driving in L.A. really helps me. I know that's counterintuitive, but just this one thing to think about.

Gemma Styles [00:14:45] I was going to say if I could think of some other house, like famously bad roads and traffic, that's probably like but you never know, maybe maybe one want to try it, you know, you never know. So I mean, when we talk about something like failing driving to us, that's obviously not not as well. It depends on what the issue is, but maybe not as deep a failure as you have mentioned, you know, fertility and how that really connects with people. That's obviously like a much deeper, kind of more emotional sort of personal thing. Do you ever find it difficult? Kind of having that much emotion put out there and then obviously it's really nice that people then connect to the issues and then want to talk to you, but do you find it hard to get is it kind of a lot of emotion dumped on you? Sometimes I don't say dumped in a horrible way. I mean, you know. Yeah. You're not prepared for it being thrown at you.

Elizabeth Day [00:15:44] Another really. Like that is such an empathetic question. No, and yes, sir. So basically, when I'm having a conversation with anyone, one on one, I really want to get to the real stuff, the root of who they are and what makes them tick. That to me is. Not only interesting, but really important to understand another human being in their full selves. So when I'm doing a heartfelt interview, I never feel emotionally drained or put upon. I feel incredibly honoured if someone is prepared to be vulnerable in that space. And I think it's just one of the most beautiful things anyone can do. So I'm so I'm so I'm so often moved by, I don't feel drained by it here. Then when the episode goes out, there acquires a life of its own in the same way that the books I write acquire of life of their own. So in How to Fail, I wrote about my Fitoussi journey. That was one of the chapters in Magpie, my new novel. There's a lot of fertility stuff in there as well, and I'm aware that then those things become part of someone else's experience and dialogue. And at that stage, I do have to be quite careful about the fence I put around my own emotional and mental health. Yeah, because I do get. A lot of really generous, extraordinary messages from people sharing their stories, and I don't I'm not able to reply to every single one of them individually, which I find really crushing. But I've also realised that if I attempt to do that, it takes it occasionally will take me into quite a dark place personally. And when I'm trying to stay positive about things like having a baby, I just I'm very aware that I need to conserve my energy and put in some sort of self care ground rules. But I do read and react and think of every single person who's ever sent me a message. And I do reply to a few of them. But I just want if anyone is listening and has ever sent me something that's gone unanswered, it doesn't mean I'm not thinking of you. I am sending you all the love in the world. And and it's purely just that I. Yes, I do find that that has an emotional cost. But the biggest emotional cost is when someone criticises me, because I don't know if you feel this as well, but I've had to, you know, because what I do, I, I believe in it and I want to put it out there. That's part of fulfilment for me, is are sharing with other people and getting their responses. And so I have to be OK with a level of criticism. But because I put so much of myself into things, it does sting every single time. Yeah. And and I've had to get better at processing that. And I've had to have like, strong talks with myself and I've had to like make decisions not to respond and meet people. And that's helpful for my mental health.

Gemma Styles [00:19:07] Yeah. I mean, I can definitely relate to that kind of I feel like it. Yeah. It kind of depends on what the thing is like. I'm, I'm, I'm just an extremely sensitive person. Like, I'm not that great. A bit criticised anyway, but I mean, who, who does love being criticised I suppose. But yeah, it's always like, oh I don't know, I've never been super bothered by if I got messages or see things that people have talked me on and thought they don't like what I'm wearing or even if they've got like things to say about me physically, I'm kind of like, well, you know what, I can't do anything about that. So fine. But I mean, if you're if you want to. But that's not my goal. But yeah, when it's kind of something quite personal and you know that you're. Trying to do something. Not as not to sound like an arsehole, but trying to do something, you know, to, like, put some good into the universe kind of thing, like try and do something that will be helpful to people. And then, yeah, when those things kind of when you put a bit of your heart into something and then people start criticising it, that's definitely harder.

Elizabeth Day [00:20:07] First of all, you're like an astonishingly beautiful woman. So anyone who has ever

Gemma Styles [00:20:13] criticised for how you like

Elizabeth Day [00:20:14] is totally outrageous

Gemma Styles [00:20:16] and physically moving around.

Elizabeth Day [00:20:18] And I'm just sorry to make you squirm, but secondly and you'll be useful inside and out. But secondly, I think that the way that I have chosen to deal with it is like I feel like criticism has been made visible through the Internet and through social media before we could exist in quite happy little bubbles. And there was there was a certain privilege to that as well, that you didn't have to engage with the things that you didn't want to hear. And when I saw that in journalism way back in 1832, I was like, there was hardly any Internet that was like one computer that people could use to join whatever the search engine was at the time. Yahoo! But also people had to write a physical letter to criticise something that had appeared in the paper, whereas now people can comment online and that's wonderful. In is democratising. And it also means you just let in all of the other stuff that was probably existed before but was invisible. And so I've just got a lot smarter about choosing whose opinion I'm going to listen to. I have four or five cornerstone relationships in my life. I know that they have my back and want the best for me. And I know that when they offer constructive criticism, it is in my best interests. And then I sort of ask myself how I if someone was crystalise me online. So that's one example. During the last lockdown, I feel like we've had about five thousand. But during the last one where you were allowed to go for a walk every day with one other person, not from your household. And I went to one of those walks, actually, that was the tail end of that lockdown. And it was a really lovely joy giving walk with a friend I hadn't seen for ages. We stayed socially distant throughout and it was really good for both of our mental health. And someone commented on I mean, I can't believe you're being so irresponsible and posting about meeting up with a friend. And that really undid me because I was like, oh, I don't. And this person was a doctor. And I was like, oh, my God, I hope this doesn't make me anti NHS. So I was like I felt I felt so awful. And then I had to just take a breath and be like, no, hang on a second. Do I think I've done anything wrong? No, I know I haven't. And I have to be OK with that. So it's also about trusting your internal voice, which historically I haven't been that great at.

Gemma Styles [00:22:46] Yeah. Do you think we could kind of apply the same thing about how we talk about criticism to failures like which of our failures sort of sting the most? Because I always wonder, I have to say when I listen to episodes, because people share so much really personal stuff, but I don't know, maybe I'm just super nosy or I dunno something else. But I always wonder, like, what if there are any sort of additional failures that people just aren't willing to talk about, the ones that are kind of. The more buried ones or the ones that are just too, yeah, raw, I don't know why I'm always looking for more because there's so much.

Elizabeth Day [00:23:25] But no, I think you're right. I think there probably is for many guests this like unexplored hinterland of a whole pile of stuff that they don't want to make public or they're not ready to make public. And I think that in a way that adds to the interest of the interview, hopefully if I'm doing my job properly because I feel an episode of House Fail is a success. Ironically, when when I've been able to ask about the three failures but touch upon things that haven't been stated so quite often, even if someone doesn't want to reveal a certain thing that's happened, there will be a revealing moment of shared emotional feeling that might give a hint of that. And I feel that I've done my job well. When someone says at the end I was like a therapy session or I felt so safe, like creating a safe space. My guess is really important for me. And I think that's why it works to have them choose the three failures that they're willing to discuss in advance of the interview. It not only helps me structure the episode, but I like to think that it helps make them feel a bit safe. And I always say, like, if there's anything that you say that you want taken out or do feel free, it hardly anyone ever asks for that. But it's really important to me that there's there's a degree of kind of respect and consideration for what they're about to share.

Gemma Styles [00:25:04] Yeah, I'm exactly the same record in this podcast. Like I kind of say to people, you know, somebody sort of stumbles over their words or sort of goes, oh, I messed that up. And it's kind of it's like, it's fine, it's fine. We'll start the sentence again, kind of thing like it. It doesn't matter. But I think. Yeah, it's like. It's kind of we're getting into sharing failures now, but there is. Weirdly, through the even more of an expectation to be really perfect online and nobody is allowed to make mistakes anymore.

Elizabeth Day [00:25:37] Well, also no one's allowed to say that they feel bad about feeling like that. Yes, that was an unanticipated consequence of the popularity of our travail, is that now I think some people feel under pressure to fail already. Well, straight away. And I always like to say there's just no way you can fail at failing. Fate is going to happen to all of us. Failure does not define you. How you respond to it feeds into the character that you are and how you respond to it is to a greater or lesser degree within your control. But that's not to say that you need to be able to process every single failure immediately. Some failures are utterly cataclysmic and will require a period of mourning, of grieving, of coming to terms with. And you might never be at peace with it and it might shape you in all of these ways you could never have intended. But it doesn't make you yourself a failure. And it's OK to take that time to understand what something might be trying to teach you. And it's also OK to say I don't think that was teaching me anything, quite frankly, but I survived it. So I guess one of the things it might have taught me is that I'm stronger than I thought. And I also think that it is really important to distinguish between types of failure and the kinds of people who are allowed to fail. So I'm aware that I'm extremely lucky and privileged talking to you through a laptop as a white, privileged, educated woman. And I'm given multiple opportunities to fail in in a way that a marginalised person, a person of colour, someone living with a chronic illness wouldn't be given as many opportunities. So there's more pressure on them to be perfect the first time, which is wrong and needs to change. But the second thing is, is that there are for me two different groups of failure. One is your common or garden failure like failing your driving test. About the other is a huge life shifting failure, which can be entirely beyond your control, like a global pandemic, like terrible illness, like the death of a loved one. And I'm not for a minute suggesting that both categories of failure can be as easily assimilated. Absolutely no. It's just that the way that I choose to live my life is that most things that have happened to me have taught me something in the fullness of time. And that's my way of attaching meaning to something that might otherwise be meaningless. So although we none of us wanted to live through a global pandemic, although it's been utterly horrendous and caused untold grief for millions of people around the world who've lost loved ones alongside that, one of the things that we could take from it is it's helped us reassess our friendships. It's made us understand profoundly the value of togetherness. It's potentially ushered in a new era of flexible working. That's one example for me of how I try not to be really depressed about depressing things that happen. So that's what I mean by it.

Gemma Styles [00:28:53] Makes me I wanted to ask you actually. So as we're kind of talking about. You know, looking at the positives of failure and even kind of the gist of this whole concept and kind of looking at failure or something that isn't necessarily terrible, I wanted to ask how you feel about the concept of kind of failing upwards. And because I know and as you mentioned, you know, there's there's certain people who are kind of allowed to fail upwards and are allowed to kind of benefit from the failures and then certain people who aren't given the opportunity to maybe do that. Is that something you've thought much about in terms of because, you know, as we go through and go through your heartfelt episodes and it's obviously like you say, you talk to a lot of successful people who then have failed. Yeah. Is that kind of as a concept, something that you think much about?

Elizabeth Day [00:29:39] It definitely is, especially given the state of politics in our country. I mean, talk about failing upwards and the privilege of a sort of old Etonian education. Yes, I do think about it a lot, partly because the podcast has been a learning experience for me, too. It's really, really been incredibly valuable for me in terms of working out how I think about life and how this whole philosophy around failure. And I've definitely evolved my opinions on it. And I think. I saw one of the criticisms that I sometimes get is we touched upon earlier about the idea of getting people who seem like astonishing successes and are by any metric like Kazuo Ishiguro, who won a Nobel prise ago. So I think Andrew. Yes, that's pretty successful. Andrew Scott and Phoebe Walbridge, obviously like household names. Like what? And one of the Christesen as well. What on earth would they know about failure? Because they're such astonishing successes. I can't possibly relate to that. And are you telling me that? Oh, if I just learn how to cope with the fact that I failed this exam, I, too, can be a global superstar. And I'm not trying to do that at all. And I think we live in an age where we seek to flatten everything to make it really black and white. It's super interesting to me that just to go off on a tangent, we live in a world like this. We live in a world that's increasingly non binary in terms of gender and identity. And that's a wonderful thing. But at the same time as that's happening, I feel like we're more and more binary in terms of our opinions. The yeah, and I feel like we're not allowed to explore how we feel about something without running the risk of being shot down or cancelled or being told that I'm morally wrong. And I think that because the world is chaotic and difficult, a lot of people seek to simplify issues and flatten them and make them one thing or the other. And my podcast is a podcast of nuance. And so I always think that if you listen to an episode and someone seems to be really successful, actually you'll discover that they don't always feel like that. And it hasn't always been that case. And Andrew Scott chose as one of his failures, his failure to be hetero normative. I mean, what an extraordinary thing to share with the world and how that had affected him in his 20s. And it was just really, really interesting. So I don't know if that answers your question, really, but I am I don't like the idea. The fail, like failing well, has become a kind of hashtag has become a sort of good vibes only. We can only think positive here because I'm so like anti all of that. Like, I think it's OK not to feel okay. It's OK to fail. I'm actually like the direct opposite of the positive psychology, good vibes only movement. So basically what I'm saying is it's nuanced.

Gemma Styles [00:32:55] We love nuance. I keep nuance alive.

Elizabeth Day [00:32:59] Yes. Yes. Oh my gosh. That will be my new podcast. How to nuance

Gemma Styles [00:33:05] something I would definitely

Elizabeth Day [00:33:07] or good influence nuance could be your new series.

Gemma Styles [00:33:10] Oh, my God. Let's just do it. We'll work on our puns. Yes. And do some kind of crossover episode.

Elizabeth Day [00:33:17] I love upon

Gemma Styles [00:33:20] this. I feel like last thing that I wanted to ask you. I'm interested to know, so you've had a lot of different people on your podcast, we've kind of already touched on it, you know, how certain things you might think of as failures and then sort of the luxury of time passing and being able to look back on things makes me wonder whether you feel there's a difference between the failures that your guests or we in general look at, depending on how old we are. Also, for example, such a good point. Do you find the older guests or people you've had on come up with very different ideas than people in their 20s, for example? Because I'm really interested to know then, because a lot of people listening to this, you know, might be kind of in their 20s bracket, like what does that teach us then about dealing with failure at that age?

Elizabeth Day [00:34:14] Another amazing question that I haven't been asked before, and you're totally right. Generally, my favourite guests are 70 or above. I mean, over 80 is a dream because. Because you accumulate so much wisdom through living life, I mean, that's the only way you can understand life is to live more of it. And and also because then your sense of perspective shifts. So you're right. You know, I recently had Gloria Steinem on the podcast, who is one of my all time heroes. It was a dream come true, getting her she's 80 something. I think. I think she might be 86. Maybe I got that wrong anyway. She looks amazing. You gotta you can't tell her failures were to do with the death of loved ones of her parents and the fact that she'd failed to be there in for her the meaningful way that she wanted to be. That's something that's hopefully not too many people in their 20s would have experienced. And it really does just shift the tone of the entire interview. Oh, we're talking about really deep rooted things, about the things that you care about as your life is closer to its end than it was to the beginning. So there definitely is a real difference. And I also think that, you know, generally speaking, of course, this won't be true of everyone. People in the 70s, 80s. I don't think I've had someone in their 90s yet, but we cannot dream. They give fewer fucks like this. They're much more likely to be honest about what they've learnt. And then, you know, I have some I had Annie Nightingale, the legendary Radio One deejay. So often they're incredibly young, spirited at heart. And she spoke hilariously about not having a pension. I mean, that is something that is highly relatable to someone in their 20s. But she had the sense of perspective, which is like, but that's okay with me because I love my work and I always want to work. And I suppose that's a real gift to give younger generations. And I benefit from it hugely as well, because one of the things that I've realised doing the podcast is that so many people feel that they failed at their 20s. It's a decade of such intense pressure from all aspects. And it's also, for many of us, the first decade out of full time education and there's no exam. You can see it to show that you're being a good adult. And and I think the other thing is, is that we fetishise youth so much that people labour under the misapprehension that if they aren't succeeded in their 20s and they're never going to make it. And actually my experience belies that. I feel like I've become more myself with more opportunities and more, quote unquote, success the older I've got. And so I'm very much about dismantling that myth. That age is weakening because it's totally opposite from my perspective. And that's something the older interviewees always bring to the table.

Gemma Styles [00:37:26] So thank you. Yeah, I was I was really keen to know what you thought about.

Elizabeth Day [00:37:30] Yeah. Such a good it's such a rich topic. I mean, I've interviewed someone for the new season who's she's in her late 70s and she was just brilliant and I know she'd gone through sorry. Just to give you a little teaser, she'd gone through unimaginable personal tragedy through the pandemic and she was constantly at pains to say, but it's nothing given what so many other people are going through. And I think that sense of perspective, that sense of like understanding your place in a wider world is just something that you get with age as well every week.

Gemma Styles [00:38:11] My guest today will be answering your questions. On the first one comes in from Kristen, who asks, I'm a perfectionist and failure is very scary for me. I have a hard time accepting failure and feel so jealous of my friends who are able to just go with the flow. Do you have a mantra or a phrase that you repeat to yourself when you're in a negative headspace or have just made a mistake?

Elizabeth Day [00:38:32] Wow, what what a question, Kristen. That is such a deep question and goes to the very core of my being because I completely understand where you're coming from. I am also a recovering perfectionist in that I think I fell into a cycle at school. And perhaps you relate to this, a feeling that if I did well at tests and exams, then I would be loved and approved of. And the older I get, the more I realise that that isn't necessarily the case, that in our rush to be perfect, we sometimes forget to be real. And it means that often we're denying the people closest to us the opportunity to get to know us as we truly, authentically are. And that led me into all sorts of relationships that weren't good for me and where I constantly felt like I had to be performing and I was slightly treading on eggshells. All the time, because I didn't want to let anyone down, and now I suppose the mantra that I would return to is that it's so much better to be real than to be perfect, because when you're perfect, you just don't allow anyone in. And it's quite boring because it's the same as anyone else who's perfect. It's so much more interesting to be flawed, to be imperfect, to be someone who connects with others through their failures. And so that's something that I always seek to remind myself. And I would also say those friends of yours who are able to be in the flow, I mean, who even are they? Do they belong to an Aryan race? Because I think they potentially some of them might not always feel like they are able to go with the flow, but maybe they don't feel they can admit that to you because you seem to have it all sorted because you are projecting this image of perfection. And that's not a bad thing at all. But I think you might be surprised at how much you can share with each other. And then the other thing that I would just say on a very practical level, and I don't want to be one of really irritating because like exercise, it's good for your mental health. You. But as someone who spends a lot of time in her head, I find it unbelievably important to do some form of physical movement. And for me, the thing that's enabled me to come to terms most with my imperfections is probably yoga, because the entire premise of yoga is that you can't possibly be perfect and you've got to listen to your own body. And that's something about knowing that I'm going into a yoga class and no one's expecting me to be perfect. In fact, you're doing it wrong if you're doing it perfectly. That's been a real release for me and it's really helped me be in my body in those moments. And so I find that very helpful as well.

Gemma Styles [00:41:25] I like that's a good mix of, you know, what to think and then some practical stuff to it.

Elizabeth Day [00:41:30] Yes, you go and it doesn't have to be yoga. You can literally just be like dancing around your bathroom to Duleep is physical. And that's another great thing.

Gemma Styles [00:41:39] So we've got options. That's the. Exactly. OK, next question is from Charlie, who asks, how do you find and feel being public about trauma and knowing that it's the first time your friends might hear it? Do you feel it can make them more flippant or passive about it, and how do you alleviate that?

Elizabeth Day [00:42:01] Thank you for that considered question, Charlie, I. OK, I've got multiple layers to answer with. One is that none of my friends have been being flippant or passive or taken it for taking my openness for granted, partly because I'd been open with them already about the things I then choose to share publicly. Also, because if a friend ever has been either of those things, they are not my friends. That's not an appropriate response. How you live your life is entirely up to you. And if you are someone who chooses to share that deserves its own space and its own respect. And I think, again, going back to what we were talking about the very beginning, Gemar, about British reserve, we live in a culture where we're so often expected to be seemly. We're expected to kind of hide our trauma. Our imperfections are rage so that we can be neat and pliant and these little packages that are just easy to accept. And I'm a huge advocate of being messy in public because that's where I've felt the truest sense of me. And that's why I've also found to my great joy most acceptance, after all of those years, busily trying to be perfect. Actually, when I admitted all of my flaws, that's when I find that I engage with a much broader platform of people and my friendships got much deeper as a result. So that's certainly my experience. Having said that, there are certain things that I haven't shared publicly and I'm not ready to share publicly and I might not ever share publicly. It's mainly because they involve other people. And I'm aware that I don't want to tell their stories for them. But I think that that's a really important thing to keep in your mind, that just because you choose to share one thing, you don't have to share everything. And sometimes it's really useful just to ring fence certain things and for yourself and for your own safety and your own mental health. So I'm a big believer in knowing instinctively when you're ready to share something and sometimes that takes a bit of time. So I don't tend to share trauma as it's happening.

Gemma Styles [00:44:35] Yeah, yeah. I think that's very common as well. I mean, in conversations that I've had about mental health, I find that most people approach it quite similarly to me. And it's it's much harder to talk about when you're really kind of in the pits of it, whereas with a bit of distance between you and the situation. A lot of people find it a lot easier, but then, yeah, it's one of those things that everyone deals with differently, I suppose, like I spoke to Calthorpe on a recent podcast episode, and she's very good at when she's actually feeling depressed or is kind of in that kind of headspace. She's very good at getting on her Instagram stories and being very open about it and sort of saying these are the things that I do to make myself feel better in this time while she's in the middle of it. And I think coming back to, you know, we love all the new nuance. It's so good to see how different people deal with things, too.

Elizabeth Day [00:45:29] Definitely. And I think that's amazing. And I really admire people who do that. I think for me, because I have such an instinctive need to share and communicate. But connexion is at the heart of everything I do and is what makes me take as a person. And sometimes, for instance, at the beginning as well, halfway through the first lockdown, I had a miscarriage. And when I was going through it, I really I had this like, compulsion to share, but I knew that for me personally. I I couldn't do that right then because I needed to have that experience just for me and for us, for me and my partner and for the baby I was using, like I knew there was an overriding instinct that needed that, even though quite often I'm like, I need to connect. I need share this will this is what will give it meaning. And the lesson that I've learnt about myself, which absolutely doesn't apply to everyone, is that I just need to take a breath just to leave it like a couple of weeks and then see how I feel. And for me, the thing that comes out after I've left that gap, I feel is always more worthwhile. And that's how I am. I got I'm about sounds so pretentious. That's how I create art drama like.

Gemma Styles [00:46:56] Well, like I love the art you put out. So if I were doing it however you do it.

Elizabeth Day [00:47:00] But that's how I write novels as well. Like I, I need to be writing about the thing that's going on in my life, but I need to have had time to process it personally in order to put it on the page.

Gemma Styles [00:47:11] Yeah, that makes sense. Definitely makes sense. Next question is from Sofia, who asks, I have always thought that preparing myself for failure by expecting failure would make it easier to handle, for example, thinking you might not pass an exam before taking it. Is that a helpful way or does it just make me less self-confident?

Elizabeth Day [00:47:32] Oh, Sophia, I think it's brilliant. I think it's a brilliant way of looking at it. I'm a massive advocate of the power of constructive pessimism. So I get when I said earlier, like, positive psychology has been great in many ways. But it also the knock on effects for some people has been to squeeze out any space for negativity and energy. That's for me is a functional way to be because I'll feel negative in any given day about any given number of things. And that's OK, because life is texture and it's nuance and it's all the emotions at once. Like feeling is the most important thing, but that means that I am also, you know, I'm optimistic and I'm pessimistic. And Alain de Botton came on my podcast. He's one of my few repeat guests and he talks about the power of constructive pessimism because he said, any time you're facing the prospect of failure, let's use the example of applying for a job. If you ask yourself what's the worst that can happen, the worst possible thing is that you don't get the job. You don't earn enough money. You get evicted from your home, you end up on the streets. That's an extreme that's an extreme version events. Would you be able to cope and you would want to cope. But most people, I believe, have it within them to cope with that situation. So if you say that to yourself and then you think of the opposite, like what's the most optimistic version of the most optimistic version is that you get the job and within a week you're the CEO of the entire company and a multimillionaire. Both of those versions of events are extreme. So both of them are extremely unlikely to happen. The most likely thing is at the centre of those, the most likely thing is the average is the aggregate. And I definitely find that a very helpful way of thinking. Could I cope with the worst? Yes, I probably could. Therefore, I'm going to take the risk because the biggest failure for me is not taking the risk in the first place, because that means that you'll never grow and you'll never evolve. You'll never progress because you can't always win. Sometimes you have to learn that you can use all of that as a sort of data acquisition. So I think anything is fuels fear. And if that's what works for you, then that works for you and don't question it too much.

Gemma Styles [00:49:52] I found a really interesting answer because as you were talking so on the first episode that Alain de Botton did on your podcast is my favourite episode. I've listened to it so many times. Yeah, love the episode. But as you were talking, I was kind of nodding along and you're saying, you know, it might be good, but also, you know, think of the worst thing it might be. And I'm like, yeah, you're nodding along because I think of the worst things all the time. But then you went on to thinking about the best thing and how it might actually be better than you're even expecting in my head. Never goes to that place.

Elizabeth Day [00:50:22] Yes. Isn't that interesting? Because you're right that the a lot of people struggle to think about the best version of events. But if a world exists in which the worse version of events can happen, then by its nature, the best version can also happen to. So you need to be able to think both. You need to be able to think I could be the best. But if I'm if I'm investing and thinking I'm going to be the worst person at this, then I also have to believe I could be the best person because otherwise it doesn't make logical sense.

Gemma Styles [00:50:56] Yeah, I love it so much. I feel like this is going on in my head. And probably for a lot of people, you go from this, you know, this good pretty OK thing could happen. All this terrible, terrible thing could happen. We need to push the scale out of this phase. I think it often. Yeah, probably. They won't, but it could,

Elizabeth Day [00:51:13] yes, and then it's really liberating because there's so much more space

Gemma Styles [00:51:17] to experiment, definitely love that. If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests and be the first to learn when season three comes up, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter akid influence G.S. and email me that influence pod at Gmail dot com. Before you go, I've got three things that I ask every guest, and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please recommenders, something to read, something to listen to and something to

Elizabeth Day [00:51:46] watch, the thing to listen to. I'll start with first. So when I came up with the idea of how to fail and then thinking about doing a podcast, I was listening to a lot of podcasts at that time. And one of the best podcasts I've ever listened to is where should we begin with Esther Perel as well as a relationship counsellor. And she invites people going through tricky times in their relationship to talk about their issues. And you basically allowed to eavesdrop on the therapeutic process. And it's fascinating because what you realise is whatever you're going through and however toxic any relationship you've ever been in has been, you are not alone. And that is part of the condition of being human. And she's just so good at making you feel you can cope and also helping you understand where your baby is coming from. So I love that podcast. The other one that I really want to put into the mix is Glenanne Doyle's podcast. We can do hard things. I really like the format of that. She chats to her sister and then her wife occasionally makes an appearance and they have a topic each week. And one of the ones that really blew my mind was they were talking about fun, what it is and how you have it. So I've just never because I feel like I failed to have enough fun a lot of the time. So that was a really interesting. Yeah, it was. Honestly, it's so interesting to listen to you because I feel like Glenanne is very like you and me in that respect, in that she's like fun like, oh, what am I meant to have a hobby. I don't really have any hobbies other than I love going to the cinema. Yeah. It's because I think we're introverts, we've learnt how to, like, operate, it's

Gemma Styles [00:53:29] always been like a quite stressful question, like in Idaho back in the day for like job interviews or like university applications and stuff. And it's always like open some more about, you know, what your hobbies. And I'm like, why is everyone else doing that? I'm just not like connecting to a thing and doing it all the time and trying to, like, force myself into hobbies. And I did my hobbies. Watching telly, quite honestly, did

Elizabeth Day [00:53:51] so much on my CV when I was, whatever, 18 of my hobbies. Because you're always told at school you need to put hobbies to show that you're a well-rounded person. My hobbies were like tango dancing. I went to one lesson, hated it, and abseiling I put in there because I sailed a bit like a couple of times what I was about eight or something like that. A piano adventure that I like that'll

Gemma Styles [00:54:19] take me back.

Elizabeth Day [00:54:20] I know. Anyway, so that's that's the thing to listen to, to read. Other than my new novel Magpie available to order from all good bookshops. Plugger, I'm so terrible at blogging normally that I like. I just have to remember a crowbar and

Gemma Styles [00:54:39] I would have made you and done it for you if you had mentioned.

Elizabeth Day [00:54:41] But also thank you. That's so sweet of you. I always forget, especially with the conversation as amazing as this, I was like really involved. I thought a lot about this question because I love books so much and they mean a lot to me and they're incredibly important in my life. And the book I would suggest reading is educated by HR Westover, which is a memoir of a woman who grew up in a in survivalist America. Her family believed that the end of days were coming. They didn't believe in mainstream medicine or schooling. She was home schooled. She went to various members of the family, went through horrific accidents, and they never went to hospital. And she ended up studying at Cambridge and becoming a Cambridge academic. Then she wrote this phenomenal memoir, which is not only about the power of education, but also about the power of educating yourself. And it's about the power of kind of finding yourself in a world in a microcosm that is set up to make you believe that your failure or you're the odd one out or your soul somehow not meeting this impossible standard, how to find your own voice. And it is so extraordinarily written. She's an amazing writer apart from anything else. And it's one of my favourite memoirs I think I've ever read. She also did a high profile episode because I literally I emailed her publicist been like anything I can do to meet her.

Gemma Styles [00:56:09] Yeah, I'm really glad that you've reminded me about that book because I borrowed it ages ago from my friend Rachel, and it sat on my shelf and I'd completely forgotten about it. I've just renewed it. That's going to be I'm going to put the top of my list next.

Elizabeth Day [00:56:23] Now you're going to absolutely love it. She ends up estranged from her family as well. And that's also like a very profound thing to read about how someone then makes their own version of family if they don't have the one that they were raised. And so that's an amazing book. And then the thing to watch, I was initially going to say The Real Housewives of New York, which I believe is the greatest show on television and also does teach you a lot about failure and owning your mistakes. But I think I'm actually going to go for the Netflix documentary series, The Last Dance, which is all about the Chicago Bulls basketball team at a time when they had Michael Jordan and Dennis Rodman and all of those greats and a Scottie Pippen and Michael Jordan is someone who talks a lot about the value of failure and being a superstar athlete. He talks about how he misses a shot ninety nine times out of a hundred, but he does that to train for the one hundredth time and to be able to make that shot. And it's incredible documentary. I love the way it was structured. It's got these amazing interviews with all the key players and it teaches you a lot or it did me about success and failure and what that really means. So those are my recommendations.

Gemma Styles [00:57:42] I like that one too, because that is I'd seen that advertised that I would never have expected that I would really enjoy it that much because I'm not a sports person. Me neither. Go sports people.

Elizabeth Day [00:57:52] But but that's who is the man in the black and what's. Yes. That is this offside or what colour.

Gemma Styles [00:58:00] I know that sounds really good. I'm glad, Coach. Thank you for that recommendation too.

Elizabeth Day [00:58:05] It's about so much more than just sport. Yes. And it's also got a really amazing 90s vibe to it. The music, the Nike trainers. It's just it's great.

Gemma Styles [00:58:17] Thank you for listening and thank you, Elizabeth, for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using. And if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating on a review as well. Your views make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. I won't say my usual. See you next week because it's the end of season two seasons. One and two are available to catch up on. And I will be back with you soon.