S03E08 Transcript: Emma Gannon on Sabotage

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Gemma Styles [00:00:01] Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest will help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answering some of your questions. This week we're talking about sabotage, the micro and macro ways that we get in our own way, how online spaces can cultivate a negative mindset and learning to analyse our own behaviour. So joining me this week is Emma Gannon. Emma is a best selling author, speaker, teacher and podcaster. She started her podcast Control Delete in 2016 in the sense that over 10 million downloads. She so far published five books, including her debut novel Olive, released in 2020, as well as the multi-hyphenate method discussing modern careers disconnected about our relationships with online media and crucially for today, sabotage, a book about overcoming the barriers we put up in the way of our own happiness. Well, here to talk about sabotage today, which not only is a thing that we do in our lives, it's also the title of a book that you published. So the full title, Sabotage How to Silence Your Inner Critic and Get Out of Your Own Way. How did you come to writing a book on this topic? Because, I mean, as someone who's, you know, even just followed you online for a number of years, I look at you and I think I know she's a very, you know, confident, successful person. I wouldn't have looked at you and thought you were someone who sabotaged yourself, but yeah. How did you come to writing the book?

Emma Gannon [00:01:56] That is what a lot of people have been saying to me actually is. And I guess in my twenties because I wrote Sabotage in 2019. So I was 29 and I was really coming to the end of my twenties where I think like a lot of people in that decade you are quite focussed on the outward projection of life. Like I was not performing but I was showing the shiny bits big time in my career especially and I'm good at that. Like I've worked in social media marketing for like my whole life. Like I know how to make things like look good, sound good, post a good picture, write a good caption. I would do that for brands and then I sort of doing it for myself. And it was weird because I went into my thirties realising that actually I just really wanted to write more personally and sabotage. The book was the first time I opened up, I think, and people were like, Oh wow, you're being really honest in this book. But I just felt really ready to. And what was interesting about the topic of sabotage is, you know, I'm not a psychotherapist. I don't have qualifications in terms of dealing with people's mental health and trauma and all that stuff. But while I do have I think is an ability hopefully to write about my own personal experiences and also interview people and the sort of journalist in me can hopefully tie together this theme and make it accessible for people who are struggling. So in the book, you know, it is experts telling me what to do. I'm like the guinea pig because I did self-sabotage. I would I really couldn't enjoy any of the success I had made for myself. I was trying to mess up because I wasn't comfortable having it.

Gemma Styles [00:03:33] What did that look like for you in terms of so when you look back and you think, Oh, I was sabotaging myself at that time, was it sort of turning things down or just kind of talking to yourself negatively? What was what was that like?

Emma Gannon [00:03:46] Yeah, it was a combination of a few of those. The big one was talking myself out of exciting opportunities, just being like, Oh no, I don't want to do that. When really, I was just scared. That was a huge one. So I suppose that was that impulsive syndrome stuff. But the other one was it wasn't like a huge deal because I could very much put a mask over it, but I would sort of like turn up to meetings like slightly groggy and hung over and it and it's like a difficult one to talk about because now it has a terminology. It's called like grey area drinking when like you're probably just having like a couple of glasses of wine. No one would be like, Oh, that's a problem for you. In fact, everyone around me was like, That's really not a problem. You'll find that. I was like, No, I, I am sabotaging myself here because I'm numbing out feelings, good and bad. And I'm just not I'm just not showing up is like the fullest version of me. And for me, that's what self-sabotage means. It's like you're just sort of, like, dimming your light a little bit every day and you're just kind of being smaller than you perhaps could be in the world. And also, you know, I talk about this in the book, we might get on to it, but self-sabotage also isn't about turning it into like a punishment of like, I'm a terrible person. I do this, I mess up. It's more like, Oh, look at the behaviours you're doing and what could you do to maybe make your life easier?

Gemma Styles [00:05:09] That kind of makes me think about the sort of do you think those. Been quite a mindfulness sort of element to it, which I know is like a little bit of a buzzword now. But, you know, the idea of being more aware of your own thoughts because I guess if other people were looking at your behaviour from the outside and didn't, you know, see a problem, did it take quite a lot for you to really sort of turn the gaze and words and think, well, if nobody thinks that this behaviour is a problem? Really having to look at your own sort of motivation for that behaviour and be aware of your own. Yeah. Your own inner workings in order to see where it was actually going wrong?

Emma Gannon [00:05:51] Yeah, definitely. And I think you know what I've realised now, one of the most unhelpful things of friends and family today is if you say this thing is troubling me or I think this is a problem for me, the worst thing is someone going, No, it's not. You're fine because you're invalidating someone's feelings and you know, someone could be listening to this and be like, I think it's a problem that, you know, I don't like going out past midnight like that just makes me feel anxious and scared and I don't like it. And someone going, you don't need to change that. That's fine. And it's just these little things. And really what that's what sabotage the book is about is like it can be so minor, but if it's troubling you, it's valid and it's important and you you are allowed to look at that and question that and also just question how you want to live your life in a society of normal kind of norms, if you know what I mean.

Gemma Styles [00:06:46] Yeah, that's I mean, that's interesting. I think just in terms of like prioritising your own feelings and the kind of like gut feelings it sounds like, cause I think, I mean, I can relate to Yeah. What you're saying why you feel like something might be a problem on other people. And I think it's always quite well-meaning. I think it's in the same vein of where you say something's a problem and either people will say, No, no, it's fine, it's not a problem, or we'll be like, Oh, I'll do that too. It's no big deal kind of thing. Which then is kind of like, Oh, well, am I making a big deal about nothing? And when you're kind of trying to improve things for yourself, it makes it a little more difficult.

Emma Gannon [00:07:24] Yeah, for sure. And I think it's the same sort of thing around someone saying like, I feel sad or I feel depressed or I feel unhappy and someone's going, Oh, but you're doing really well, you're fine. And it's like, she just want someone to be like, That sounds really Cher. How can I help? Or just like, all right. And just literally just accepting what they're saying. But it's interesting. So I wrote Sabotage quite a few years ago, it feels like in my head because it came out I think it came out like a few months after the first lockdown, which honestly feels like so long ago to me now. And so I've done so much more work in this area since I wrote the book, but it's still a little companion, I feel, to a lot of the stuff that I want to write about, because it's there's so many like basic reminders in there.

Gemma Styles [00:08:08] Yeah, I mean, I'm reading the book, so I read a read sometimes on holiday earlier this year and have like reread kind of acquainted myself with it before we recorded it today. But there was one thing I thought was there are a lot of kind of practical tips in there. So as you go through and kind of discuss your own journey with this topic, it's really like punctuated with. Quite either practical or kind of thought exercises on how to stop doing this. How did you kind of go about collating that information? Did you find it was really helpful to you while writing it to speak to all these different experts and things? Or is it, you know, then a mixture of things that you came up with or where it dreaded all your tips come from?

Emma Gannon [00:08:54] That's a really good question. I mean, I interviewed quite a lot of people and then I kind of narrowed it down to what I thought would be helpful. But I also, over the years of writing about work and careers, lots of the same questions kept coming along. And even though this book is more lifestyle related, when I write the multi hyphen method and that was in 2017, all the questions I got from young women were like, I'm a perfectionist, I procrastinate, I can't self-promote and I have a horrible in a critic. And those are like the four thing that kept coming up time and time again. And so that's that's really the chapters in the book is those four themes. And so I'm, you know, for example, I'm not a perfectionist. I'm actually the opposite. I just throw things out there and see what happened that I really felt like that was something I wanted to tackle cause other people were saying that. But there are little anecdotes in there that I try to make quite funny. Like there's one about how I haven't driven a car since I was 18 because my whole family would basically take the piss out of me. And like it was literally the biggest family joke that like, Emma, you know, can't drive and like you can't believe we're all still alive because we've been in the car with Emma and it's like, I never got into any scrap. I actually was a fine driver. I haven't driven for literally 15 years because of a silly joke. Yeah. And so I'm trying to, you know, make light of that, but also I am trying to get back into causing. But it's the power of people putting things onto you. The stories that people make of of yeah. From even back when you were a child and God, we need to, like, shake them off somehow.

Gemma Styles [00:10:25] Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's interesting that you say about those kind of four different areas and you go into that in the book where, you know, people had sent in stories and you felt like it was quite easy to categorise. Could you tell us a little bit more about those four different kind of areas? Like what? How is this self-sabotage showing up in people's lives? What what does that look like?

Emma Gannon [00:10:45] Well, what's interesting about the four categories is even though they're all slightly different, they're all based in fear. So with procrastination, you know, we all know what that is. When you have something you really need to do and you'll find any way to kind of get around it. Oh, gosh, a sock drawer. Call a friend, you know, do horrible art when you don't want to do anything to not do this creative project you have wanted to do for years maybe. And it's really, really difficult. But really at the heart of that is like you're normally quite scared to start, say you'll make the excuses. Perfectionism is very similar to procrastination, but it's kind of different because with perfectionism you are actually doing the thing that you could be doing it endlessly and not showing anyone ever because you're scared of anyone. Saying it in a critic is also fear based. Because we just think who who am I to even try this thing? And then fear of self-promotion is similar. It's I'm scared what people will think of me. So they're all interlinked and they're all based in fear. And this is the thing about self-sabotage is it's actually quite a sweet thing that our brain does. It's like trying to protect us. It's like, that's scary. Don't do that. But we've got confused somewhere along the line that like publishing a book is the same level of fear as like being attacked by a bear. And it's not.

Gemma Styles [00:12:07] Yeah, that's, I mean, I love all that kind of psychology stuff. I was reading something the other day about what they called negativity bias, which is kind of that, you know, very human trait of always paying more attention to the kind of more negative things and. Yeah. So, you know, say we read 100 nice comments and one negative one and we focus on the negatives and it was talking about the possible sort of evolutionary basis. There were. Back. You know, however long ago in our ancestors, it was people who were very aware of the negative and aware of danger who were more likely to survive. And therefore they have passed down all the worrisome traits to us who now exist in the real world. So, I mean, I think we've had a conversation similar to that maybe on the podcast in the past where we talk about anxiety and how, you know, it's really while not very helpful at all, it's kind of trying to keep us safe.

Emma Gannon [00:13:10] Yeah, totally. Yeah. And it reminds me a little bit of something in the book. That's one of my favourite bits, which is about the sunken cost fallacy, which is about how when you put so much into something, it's really hard to quit because you don't you, you're basically sabotaging herself by like staying in it. So basically, if you've had a job for like 20 years, the reason you don't quit is because you're like full 20 years into that. Yeah, same with relationships. And that again is a safety mechanism because your brain is like but you've put all the work in stay, stay in the safe. But actually when you take risks.

Gemma Styles [00:13:50] Yeah. And actually it's not always, always the best thing to do. How have you found thinking about sabotage? In a kind of micro macro kind of way, because in my head it kind of reverts to two different sort of situations. One being, as you said, the kind of small day to day things, which is a little bit like we talked in the first episode of this series, was about self-care with Grace Victory, and we had a bit of a chat about, you know, what are the small things that we keep doing even though they make us feel terrible? And I feel like that's maybe examples of like lower level sabotage. But there's also quite a lot of discussion then about how we sabotage ourselves when we're looking at a big kind of like life goals and things like that, whether it's, you know, career goals or dreams that people are chasing. Do you think? The sabotage in those different areas kind of comes from the same place. Does it look the same? How does it sort of manifest when it is these bigger goals and dreams and things that we're talking about?

Emma Gannon [00:15:00] Yes, really interesting question because they're basically the same thing. Like when you change your life on the smallest and most micro scale, that is when you do achieve the huge dreams, I believe. And I've done quite a lot of work recently with Lydia Johnson, who's a hypnotherapist. She's from the London Clinic Hypnotherapy. And she she really broke down to me because I've had quite a lot of hypnotherapy around the first 20 minutes of your day basically sets you out for the whole day. And I never really knew that because I wake up and carve out my age because I'm not a morning person. So I'm and without realising I was just sabotaging my whole day in the first 20 minutes without even realising that that's what I was doing. And by chance, I'd sometimes wake up in a good mood, and then I and I would have a really good day. And it was this amazing realisation that and it sounds cheesy and it sounds cliche, you know, quite basic, but your thoughts really do have the power to change your whole day, which has the power to change a whole year, which has the power to change your whole life. Like the minute I saw it, I started sorting my mornings out and dealing with the thoughts that would then spiral into feelings and behaviour. Like my whole life has changed. Like friends from the past have got back in touch. Jobs that I've always wanted have come into my life and have accepted them for the first time. Ideas come to me more easily. Like this is. Kind of wild because it's like if I told you, it's because I've changed 20 minutes of my day how to all those things and come from that.

Gemma Styles [00:16:35] Yeah. I mean, that also sounds like a magical life hack though, if that is if it's if it's 20 minutes and it's not easy.

Emma Gannon [00:16:41] Oh, I will make it. Yeah, I know. And that's the small print isn't it. Because. Well, I just that does sound easy, but changing your thoughts daily takes a lot of work. And and actually, I think a lot of that happened during the pandemic. Yeah. And I'm I'm really noticing that even though it was awful, we obviously don't need to go into details about how that was like the last thing for a lot of people, it gave them some time to sort sort themselves out as well mentally. Yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:17:09] I mean, practically. How what does that 20 minutes now look like? Is it a thing about, you know, recognising your thoughts and deciding to sort of set the day up positively? Or is it physical habits that you had changed?

Emma Gannon [00:17:21] Physical. Yeah. So kind of back to what was saying about like, you know, even the night before is going to impact the morning. So it's like kind of have to go back a few steps. So it's like, am I having a good evening the night before? Like, am I going to bed at a time when I want to not drinking this out? This all sounds very boring. But, you know, I really came to a time where I was like, these things really matter to me right now in my life. And so if I want to wake up and feel really fresh and like feel really motivated at this time, in my career, in my life, there's things I have to change. And it is that stuff is like, put your phone away for like half an hour before you get into bed. I don't check my phone in the mornings anymore. I also was inspired by someone called Donna Lancaster. I don't know if you've heard of her, but she is incredible. She's a coach and she has a book coming out saying actually that she talks a lot about the power of dancing and music. And so she did this challenge where, like, you should dance every day, even for like one song that has changed my mood. Like a crazy. Okay, so it's really tiny. It's like, you know, obviously going for the daily walk or even going outside for 10 minutes to go to, like, the shop to get milk, like leave the house. Yeah, it's, it's a lot of these tiny, tiny things, but they, they really set me up.

Gemma Styles [00:18:43] I think I love I'm going to be thinking about dancing around the house at different points now, just just to see if it helps my day, you know. So talking about there's a few different things that you talk about in the book, and I feel like they obviously all linked together very well. But talking about technology and social media and iPhones and all of that kind of stuff that links together and might be sort of encouraging that negative sort of mindset about ourselves and about our achievements. Could you tell us a bit about that? So how do you think or how have you found in your research that this technology might be encouraging the sort of self sabotaging behaviour?

Emma Gannon [00:19:27] Yes. Well, in disconnected the books I write after this night, there's two small books come together. I really wanted to look at kind of the elephant in the room, which is we talk about social media and digital culture. Like it's kind of wildly separate, like this thing that we analyse separately from everything else, but at the same time it's sort of it's still a way to escape and it's still a way to numb out sometimes. Like the way that people scroll and I scroll when my eyes glaze over and I'm just I'm completely out of my own head and into the phone and I'm watching other people's lives on repeat. It's quite similar to kind of drowning your sorrows in other ways. You're kind of out of your own body and out of your own mind. And so when we think about how much time was spending on our phones, like, I didn't want to make anyone feel guilty. I don't want to make myself feel guilty. Some of these apps that tell you how long it's funny on your phone, I'm like, Can you not tell me? I could have run a marathon while scrolling tonight. Places like this. So annoying. But when it comes to kind of creativity and accessing your own wisdom and accessing your own self, our phone is taking that away a little bit, but not always because obviously we know that community is amazing on Instagram. We know that we can make friendships online. We know that we can have the career of our dreams from the end, from the way that we use the Internet. So it's like, how do we change it from being active in our use rather than passive? Yeah. And that's the same, same for all these things that I've just mentioned. Like, are you actively choosing what you want to eat or drink, or what music you want to listen to, or what time you want to go to bed? I don't think a lot of us are that active with our phones. I think we just can seem almost like what is the norm or like what we've been following for the last ten years. But I think I think unsubscribing and like changing that up every now and again is really important.

Gemma Styles [00:21:20] Yeah, absolutely. And I think I. I read an interview with you about sabotage. The book as well. And you were talking about this whole idea of sometimes we're chasing goals and feeling like we're sabotaging ourselves and sabotaging our own dreams. And you said that sometimes you think we do that because the goal that we're chasing, we don't actually want it. We're only going after it because we think it'll look good to other people. And not kind of tying that into social media and thinking, Oh, well, I have to do this thing because other people are doing it or because that will look good online or look impressive.

Emma Gannon [00:21:58] Yes.

Gemma Styles [00:21:59] And then yeah, kind of the idea that that's why we don't put everything into it. So we'll feel guilty for not doing it. But you didn't actually want it in the first place. I thought that was a really interesting point.

Emma Gannon [00:22:08] Yes. And it's and it's interesting those two things, though, because they they sit side by side. So, for example, if you are numbing out and like really escaping your life and just like miserable because you yet didn't get that job that you wanted, that that could be because you really, really wanted it. And that feeling will be like real sort of genuine sort of sadness and disappointment. Whereas if you kind of sabotage the interview, you didn't even want the job anyway, but you just felt like maybe it would please your parents. You'll kind of feel like a relief alongside the numbing out. So they're slightly different. And I think this is why the book and all books and all podcasts, like there's like an element of nuance to every conversation because they are also living in like a self-help kind of universe of gurus galore who are claiming to have the answers. And I just think we got to really dig quite deep, I think, to kind of be our own, be all our own kind of compass because especially in like the sort of American culture of, you know, people on stage with Britney, Mike like telling you how to live your life. It's like, yeah, I worry that that's becoming is going too far.

Gemma Styles [00:23:27] Right. So what's I mean? What do the good and bad versions of that look like to you then? Because I guess in terms of. I don't know. I've never particularly thought of, you know, self-help and that cultural thing as a very. Bad thing then like I think it's great what, you know, people are reading books that help them understand their own mind a bit better and are trying to sort of. Maybe figure out and change these behaviours. That they think are keeping them down. But then equally, as soon as you say that and kind of picture the image of. I don't know someone like really preaching to people that they've got, like the answer and the secret to a happy life. What's what's the kind of. Yeah. What's the good medium and not like, where do we where should we be learning? These kind of things. If not, you know, from people who tell tell us they've got it all figured out here. Should we be looking to.

Emma Gannon [00:24:30] That's the thing. It's like that's why I kind of write about my own anecdotes and kind of my own life. And I feel like hopefully at the beginning, at the end, I'm always confusing it with like, this might have worked for me, this might not work for you. And also there is no one size fits all. So if you're sabotaging in some way, there was something so juicy and interesting to unpick there. And you are at the start of a journey of getting to know yourself and discovering yourself and and like that really excites me. But I think it's dangerous to be like, well, this is this is sabotage for this reason. This is the way out. And and I think that's why the nuance of this book hopefully encourages people to go, okay, cool. Thanks so much for all these tools, but now I've got to go and work out what's really going on. And I'm really I'm a really big fan of coaching and life. I've had a life coach for the past two years and I know that term. People roll the eyes of that a little bit, but essentially it's just someone cheerleading you and also helping you unpack all these things. So I think a book can really change your life, don't get me wrong. But I also think that this is like daily work and. And I think I used to get disappointed when I would read a book and be like, Right, okay, where's my new life? Yeah. And I realised that shows like a life lifetime work to continue doing, but it can be really enjoyable as well.

Gemma Styles [00:25:56] Yeah. I'm interested to know if, you know, during the course of interviewing lots of people and kind of researching for the book. Did you end up kind of speaking to anyone or did you find there were people who were like, No, I don't do that. I don't sabotage myself. Or do you think it is quite a universal human experience? Is it something we all do?

Emma Gannon [00:26:21] It's a good question. I mean, I know plenty of people that really don't. I know I know so many people who don't overthink. They don't.

Gemma Styles [00:26:31] Analyse.

Emma Gannon [00:26:32] Over and over and over again. Like people are just like, yeah, water off a duck's back. Not bothered by that. And I love those. Feel like I'm surrounded by people like that. But. I also feel like when it comes to creativity and writing, you should always feel like you have something to say. If you feel like you do. Because. You will find your audience, you'll find your community. And all the people that read my books, the very I feel quite similar people, people that kind of want a breakthrough. They want to go through to this next chapter of their life. They want to make things and that excites me. So people, yeah, some people will be like, I got I really don't need this book.

Gemma Styles [00:27:14] I mean, this is the thing. And I'm like, that is one of the things that I find really fascinating when you look at these kind of. Social how do know patterns of behaviour I guess, and things that a lot of people do because like you say, this is what we love. This about other humans is finding people who feel the same way that we do and that kind of sense of camaraderie. But I also then find it really interesting to think, well, like, why is that? Why have why have we, for example, you know, found ourselves in this camp? And I think you said, Brian, in the intro to the book, I remember you saying kind of describing a story and a time when you felt that you were sort of professionally. Sabotaging yourself kind of kind of through the fear of of not achieving a dream. And I think it was writing your novel you were talking about, but you said in there that when you. When you were having these feelings, you felt like you did as a young child when you. What was the example you said? I think it was something about, you know, not being picked for a sports team or about a thing, that feeling of kind of failure and like you weren't good enough and kind of remembering that from childhood. Do you think that's a big way that it plays into it? And is it you know, is it just people who have had different childhoods maybe of not have grown up in a different way?

Emma Gannon [00:28:38] Yeah. I mean, I find that the main message of the book really is that there are so many layers to this and each one of us is so different, like you're saying, because. I, I always think of it as sort of your life is like almost like a crime scene and you need to almost find the root of the crime.

Gemma Styles [00:28:58] Like what? Yeah.

Emma Gannon [00:29:00] Where did it happen? What happened? And and, like, how do we go about solving it and. Anyway, Martha Beck, who's one of my my favourite kind of psycho, she's like a sociologist. She always says that there's one thought normally that triggers all of the patterns of self-sabotage, and it can be so subtle. So, for example, say mine was comparison, and I was walking down the escalator and on a on an advert on the side of the escalator in London, I saw this the person I compare myself the most on a poster having a great time. I might then go to my meeting, not really think anything of it, then go home and drink like a bottle of wine and then have a terrible day the next day and mess up my next meeting. And so I've sort of sabotage my own life because of something that really bothers me and everyone's is different, but now I know what mine is minus related to kind of that sort of childhood thing of like not being picked or being left out or like feeling not good enough or a variation of that. And so I'm like, Oh, there is, and I know. And I can stop myself and I and I just, I just don't sabotage anymore. And that makes it sound simple to you. But once you realise what that thing is that only you know, you can be like, Oh, there is again and you can stop yourself in your tracks.

Gemma Styles [00:30:19] How did you figure that out? Is that how do we do that? Is it really? A point of sitting down and thinking, you know, when do I start to fail X, Y, Z? What feeling in my heart thing? Is that something that you think people can do by themselves, or do you need to be kind of coached through that?

Emma Gannon [00:30:37] I think having a coach really helps. Obviously, you know, it's not really something everyone can afford or has access to. Unfortunately, I really wish this stuff was taught in schools, to be honest, because the the you know, that time when you realise what's going on, you're like, Oh my God, I'm so glad I realised that now because some people realise it way, way later in life. But it is about sort of making note of these feelings. So now, you know, I can actually feel it like in my body I'm like, oh there is like it's very specific. Yeah. And it's like a, it's like rises up through me and I'm like, Oh God. So it's, I think that's what I'm really trying to get at as well with disconnected is like, we're not going to work out these things if we're on our phones the whole time. And there's nothing wrong with spending time on our phones. But I think what I try and get at is like if we want to reconnect with like what the hell is going on inside our psyches if we want to, that that does mean sitting quite uncomfortably and it's read as a real discomfort to it. When I started to realise like that moment when I was sabotaging, what I wanted to do was not feeling and be like, I don't want to feel that. But you kind of you do have to like sit with it and it's like, I don't know, it's like I'm trying to think of an example when you're the dentist or something and you want it to be over, but you have to sit and I have to let it happen.

Gemma Styles [00:32:03] Yeah, this is good for me. It's not fun, but it's good for me. And it will be better afterwards. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So all that being said, if you could kind of if someone is listening to this and relating to it and thinking I sabotage myself all the time, I talk myself out of doing things. I tell myself I can't do things, tell myself it's all going to go wrong. Where could people kind of start with some some tips to kind of start on the journey of stopping sabotaging yourself quite so much?

Emma Gannon [00:32:35] While the first step would be to take the smallest possible, really tiny weeny step. Because. It is a process and it's not an overnight thing. Nothing is. And so. Instead of that sort of punishment mentality of like, I did that bad thing again, it's the opposite. It should be do a tiny thing in the right direction or in the direction you want to go and celebrate yourself. Like try and turn that around. Try and have that voice that's like, you did that thing. You did it a little bit. That's enough for today. Tick like gold star for you. Because this is a spiral of self-sabotage. Just like the more kind of, you know, main you are, the more you'll do it. So it's that success that really is breaking that cycle.

Gemma Styles [00:33:27] Every week my guest and I will be answering your questions on the first one comes in from Tamara and she says, How do you distinguish between self-sabotage and choosing not to pursue a seemingly good opportunity because you feel it might not be the right path for you?

Emma Gannon [00:33:42] Well, I mean, the way that question is phrased, I would say that sounds like self-sabotage versus self-care. I think turning something down you don't want to do is really brave an act of putting yourself first and sort of prioritising your your mental health. So, yeah, I wouldn't say that self-sabotage.

Gemma Styles [00:34:02] I guess it's kind of saying, how do you how do you know whether that's what you're doing? I think is is probably the like, how do you know whether you are taking care of yourself by not doing something, even if other people think it looks good or. If your motivation is actually that, you quite would like to do it but you don't want to mess up. How do you tell the difference between those feelings?

Emma Gannon [00:34:25] Well, I would say it's similar to earlier where you will feel different sensations in your body. So if you are saying no to something you really don't, in a day you'll feel relief. You'll feel your shoulders will drop you off like yes. If you are saying no to something you really want to be doing, you might feel anxious. You might feel disappointed. You might feel a bit sad. You might feel just sick. Yeah. Like you've kind of gone against your own integrity and something will feel off. That's how I would tell the difference.

Gemma Styles [00:34:59] Real gut feeling. So. Yeah.

Emma Gannon [00:35:02] Yeah. And we're all in our heads so much. And actually there is a lot that, that your physical body will tell you.

Gemma Styles [00:35:09] Mhm. Yeah I agree definitely. Yeah. I think taking the time to. Trust the gut feeling. I suppose that's the scary part, isn't it?

Emma Gannon [00:35:18] Yeah. I find relief a really useful way of indicating, because if I don't feel the relief, I'm like, Oh, maybe I did want to do that then. Because we all know that feeling. Don't leave when you get out something you really don't want a day like it feels good. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Gemma Styles [00:35:35] Next question is from Marta. And she says, I often find myself in situations where I start comparing myself to others very easily. Lately, I've noticed I do it more than ever. For example, I never really had a good relationship with my body, and it's got a lot better in the past year. Now I can say that I like my body and I'm okay with it. Now that I'm okay with my body, I've unconsciously started to look for other flaws in myself that other people don't have. It's like I need something to hate about myself. Every time I get past one insecurity, I immediately start to look for another one. Why do I do this and how can I stop the cycle?

Emma Gannon [00:36:13] Wow. That is, first of all, very self-aware to even know that that's what's happening. That's actually a really good step to even be like, Oh, look, I'm doing this thing where I'm transferring one thing onto another. So to even notice you're kind of doing that behaviour as a psycho is, I think, really interesting. I mean, you know, I'm not a psychologist. I really feel like that would be an interesting one to kind of look at in terms of there must be something where you are feeling less than and it was almost uncomfortable to like yourself. So I would I find that quite a good one to dig into with maybe some, some professional help or, or even just to notice your thoughts a bit more. Like where are they coming from and they coming from you? Or they coming from an old teacher, an old friend that said, you know, it's like digging into where they came from in the first place.

Gemma Styles [00:37:01] Yeah, I agree. I mean, that is I think it's really interesting. But as you say, it's quite a tricky thing because I think a lot of people do that like I can. I can relate to that very heavily. I think I definitely do that about myself. So I guess it's. Yeah. Trying to dig into the feeling of. When you're looking for, you know, flaws in yourself, whatever they're not. I mean, I'm I'm doing air quotes. Nobody can see them flaws and looking for them. Is it. Is it always a physical thing? Have you now transferred it onto your sort of personality traits? Why do you think you're always. Looking for something that's wrong. Is it because you want you're looking at other people or is the judgement based more in something that happened in your past or life? Yeah, it's definitely a hard question. To answer for us, but unfortunately not knowing more of someone's background. But I thought it was a really interesting question anyway, mainly because I related to it so much, and I think it is something that a lot of us do. So even if, you know, by answering this question, we can just. You said in your question, you were like, Why do I do this? I think a lot of us do this. If that makes you feel any better matter. I think it's not you know, it's not something that you specifically. All wired for or, you know, it's not something that you're doing this. But I think a lot of people do it for sure.

Emma Gannon [00:38:29] Definitely. I mean, it's reminded me of a book that I mentioned in my book that I really recommend if you are interested in this topic and it's called Big Leap. It's like a Hendrix who's an author in America, but it's all about how we all hit a limit sometimes on like our self-worth and our and our ability to like ourselves. And we hit that limit and then we try and come back down again. And we all do that in so many other ways. And actually this question is sort of reminded me of so I'm doing a bit of coaching at the moment, one on one, which is when the real magic happens with things like this, where someone would just have friends that weren't very nice to her and that was her thing. It was like, I keep, I keep like just having friends around with aren't very nice to me. What's that about? And so it comes in all different forms and disguises. I think this this way of not really kind of breaking out of these cycles. So no, I think it's amazing that you asked that question. And yeah, you're not alone for sure.

Gemma Styles [00:39:23] Next question from Amina, who asks, What are some examples of self-sabotage that you think are normalised but shouldn't be normal?

Emma Gannon [00:39:33] That's a good question. Well, I think I just touched on it there actually with friendships. I think we normalise having that friend who puts you down in a joke way or, you know, says things like, Oh, I'm just brutally honest. And that's just me.

Gemma Styles [00:39:53] Yeah.

Emma Gannon [00:39:54] And we've been friends since childhood. So I'm going to tell you what I really think about you. And actually, even though that of someone else sabotages you a little bit and your confidence by being actively friends with people that put you down, that's normalised. I think in our society it's like, Oh yeah, I've got friends that just put me in my place or whatever, but I don't know, I think friends should lift each other up. So I find friendship like such an interesting topic, especially after the pandemic and how we are looking at what we want from our friends.

Gemma Styles [00:40:24] Yeah, definitely. Okay, last question. This person didn't live by name, but said sometimes we're afraid of the unknown, resulting in not taking chances, but sometimes taking the chance has such a high risk that the self-sabotage might be a better option. My question is where is the line between self-sabotage and the risk being too high? Hip hop makes sense. So I think what I'm taking from that is. Yeah. How do you tell? When you are kind of sensibly, sensibly sabotaging, is there such a thing as that because. Yeah. There's a higher risk of failure. I don't know. I guess. I guess more of the idea of if you think there's a goal that you're going to and it's not likely to happen, should you go for it anyway? Or is that still sabotage if you don't?

Emma Gannon [00:41:25] That's a really good question. I think, again, it's kind of back to feeling like how what's the intention? How do you feel? And does it feel positive? Does it feel negative? Does it feel good inside? Or does it feel. Do you feel really on edge? And actually the worst thing to do right now would be. Taking a massive life change, because actually maybe you want to you want to actually spend some time sort of rooting yourself, getting yourself back to like a mental health site that you feel secure in. You know what I mean? I think it depends where you are in your life. But I think, you know, it's interesting because we can we can justify whatever we want to justify. That's what's funny about a human mind is like you can you can justify actually anything. Even I'm doing this, this or this or this. The. It's like I think I use this example in the book of say you don't go on a date because you're worried that you might fall in love and then you will be heartbroken. And then you might be in bed for years because, you know, you might break up. You're kind of sabotaging yourself by not going and taking that big risk because you're staying small and you're staying hidden. And I think this is the clue, I think is if you're hiding, I think that's an element of sabotage. Whereas if you're just turning something down because your life's not the right time in my life, that's empowering. And so it's sort of it really depends where you are in your life while doing it. You know, if tomorrow I quit my job because I'd fallen out with someone and I just quit my job, that would be sabotaging myself because I just I just quit like it was fine. But if you quit your job and you have all these things lined up and, you know, it's right deep down and you know that it's something that you are willing to risk that feels different.

Gemma Styles [00:43:09] Yeah, definitely. Do you think if the if the thing is that you are shooting for a really high goal. Whether it seems kind of likely or unlikely or whatever else. What is the point where it kind of becomes self-sabotage to keep going for it? That sounds that sounds like a really negative thing. But kind of what you were saying before about the like sunk cost fallacy, that's quite, quite a well-known idea. Did you come across much of that in your research as well? The kind of thing where it turns into where pursuing something is actually becomes sabotaging your life, even if it's not sabotaging that particular goal?

Emma Gannon [00:43:51] Yes, 100%. And I'm actually really interested in the weird cultural idea that, like, you should never quit. You should never quit on thing and you'll wake if you quit. But I grew up with that mentality of Do not give up. And I'm looking around at lots of very ambitious people that I know who are done, that I'm I'm just I don't want to do this anymore. And I find quitting so incredible and inspiring. When someone truly wants to quit, it's like you basically have chosen yourself and you've chosen your own self care and your own health. And I just think that's really brilliant. And so, you know, quitting when you truly want to is amazing. If you quit because you are making up all these excuses why you can't do it. But, you know, you can you know you want to that that sabotage but that quitting, I think. Good for you if you want to.

Gemma Styles [00:44:48] If you want to know about opportunities to send in questions for upcoming guests, then follow us on Instagram or Twitter at good influence. G.S. And you can email the podcast at Good Influence Pod at gmail.com. Before you go, I've got three things I ask every guest, and that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about today. Could you please recommend us? Something to read, something to listen to and something to watch?

Emma Gannon [00:45:13] Yes. So on the topic of what we were discussing today, something to listen to, I absolutely love the One You Feed podcast. It's with a guy called Eric Zimmer who was a heroin addict in his twenties and he really overcame some major challenges. And he's just a very inspiring person talking about sort of addiction and well-being and all that stuff. He's amazing. And there's a particular episode actually that if you if you like this topic, it's called. It's with a guy called Dr. Aziz Ghazi Pera, and he's the author of a book called On My Own Side, which is all about self-sabotage. It's all about the critics stuff. It's a really big book that I really recommend listening to the audio version if you if you really want to dive in. This is long something to watch. I was thinking earlier about people who overcome obstacles in all kinds of areas, and I don't know if you watched that Netflix documentary, Lady Gaga gets called I didn't, actually. But she has a lot of health conditions I don't think people really know about. And I just find her amazing that she overcomes so many obstacles in her own way. And so if you want something kind of not necessarily related to what we talk about, but someone really just sort of overcoming their own demons. I just. Yeah. Oh, it's incredible. Watch. It's amazing.

Gemma Styles [00:46:34] Oh, love that.

Emma Gannon [00:46:35] And then something to read. So there's a book and it's not actually out till January. So I just wanted to flag it, really. And also this person in general follow Natalie Lu. She is a boundaries coach. She talks a lot about saying no, taking back control, prioritising yourself a lot of things you talk about in this episode. And she has a book coming out in January 2023 called The Joy of Saying No. But in the meantime, I really recommend following her Instagram and her website and things because she's really helped me. Get back some space in my life.

Gemma Styles [00:47:11] Amazing. And of course, if you have enjoyed listening to Emma talk about sabotage. Like I said, there are a lot of tips. And yeah, like nice thought journeys in Emma's book called Sabotage, which we will link to in the show notes also. Thank you as always for listening and thank you so much to Emma for joining me. If you enjoyed the episode, I'd love you to subscribe to the podcast on whichever platform you're using to listen, and if you've got an extra minute, you can leave a rating and a review as well. Your views make a big difference and help other people find the podcast. See you next week.