S01E09 Transcript: Jack Harries on Climate Action
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intro
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Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma, and welcome to Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest, who will help us pay attention to something we should know about, as well as answer some of your questions. This week, we're talking about climate action; a refresher on what climate change means, the power of emotion to inspire action, and why our individual contributions matter so much. So joining me this week is Jack Harries. Jack is a documentary filmmaker, photographer and activist. After starting his YouTube channel, JacksGap, at age 18 to document his gap year, Jack along with twin brother Finn built up an audience of over 4 million subscribers. And Jack has since used his platform to raise awareness around the issues of mental health, forced migration and the environment. He's a co founder of Earthrise Studio - a new online community and youth led media company dedicated to communicating the climate crisis.
Gemma Styles: The whole point of the podcast for me is to kind of take these things that I think people need to be talking about, and people need to know about. And, you know, make it accessible, through you know, just me learning through a conversation with someone.
Jack Harries: Ah 100% I think what you’re doing is so, so important and what I thought was really interesting that you wrote that in your email that that most people just want to know, what is climate change? I think that's the same for many of these, there are so many different issues out there that young people have to sort of contend with these days. And I think to go on that journey with someone i.e. yourself, of learning about it, and helps other people to sort of come on that journey, too.
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discussion
Gemma Styles: So I wanted to start, if that's all right, because I've actually recorded a couple of podcast episodes already that are on kind of climate adjacent topics, and when I put out on Instagram, for people to send in questions for your episode on climate and climate action. I got a few emails asking for kind of a more basic explanation of climate change, and why it's such a bad thing, which kind of made me realise that I'm obviously coming at these topics as somebody who's, you know, already interested and has already done, you know, at least a bit of reading or watching or something else, I kind of know what we're talking about. But if you don't mind? Could we kind of start with a little intro? What is climate change? And why is it a bad thing?
Jack Harries: Going straight in with the big question.
Gemma Styles: Just to really kick off with an easy one.
Jack Harries: I'm really glad you start with that question. Because climate change is an incredibly overwhelming and complex issue. And my, my sort of interest and passion, I suppose, is to try and communicate it to make it more simple. And that comes from my own experience of having had to learn about it over the last few years. And being very, very overwhelmed. You know, I'll start by saying like, I was never strong at science, in school, or maths, particularly. And when you come to learn about climate change, there can be a lot of numbers, quite overwhelming data. And it's very intimidating. And I sort of found navigating that in my early days of learning about this issue. Yeah, a sort of overwhelming process. So so let me see if I can try and distil it down into a sort of simple solution. It is, I think one of the challenges of climate change is that it is inherently just a deeply complex issue. So I'll try and sort of simplify it down whilst still trying to do justice to the issue. But I think one of the, I think one of the best ways to understand climate change is to put it into a sort of historical context. So as humans, we've been around for like 5 to 7 million years on planet Earth, right. And for, for most of that time, the only energy we used to do anything was was energy that was naturally available to us. So that was burning fire, using the sun using wind and using the muscle power of other animals. That was the only energy available naturally to us. And that was all that we used. To understand climate change, you have to understand fossil fuels, and fossil fuels are something we hear a lot about, that word thrown out. But when you sort of think about what they are, fossil fuels are literally ancient plant and animal matter. They were buried underground millions and millions of years ago. And what we're doing when we're using fossil fuels is we're we're extracting that matter from the ground, and we're burning it to create energy. That's what fossil fuel is. And we've only been using fossil fuels for the last 300 years, three human generations and like, just think about that for a minute. It's only been three human lifetimes that we've had fossil fuels. So this world that we live in, that you and I live in, we're sat here in front of microphones and computers, and we're connected globally is so so so recent, in human history, so recent, and so this discovery of fossil fuels around 300 years ago, it was an incredible discovery, it led to a complete transformation of the way we live. And it pulled many people out of poverty. It created a globalised world, many incredible, incredible things came with the discovery of fossil fuels. But where climate change comes in is this realisation that the discovery of fossil fuels comes with a devastating caveat. And that caveat is relatively simple. When we burn fossil fuels, it releases what we call greenhouse gases into the atmosphere, you've probably heard that term thrown around a lot of times before. And these greenhouse gases trap hot air in the Earth's atmosphere, and it's causing the Earth's temperature to rise. So to simplify that down, climate change could be understood as by burning fossil fuels, we're increasing the temperature of the planet, that's the most simple explanation. And to understand why that's so serious, you have to sort of take that a few steps further. So the increasing temperature of the planet is is causing our planet to change in a really dramatic way, it’s melting our ice sheets, which in turn is rising sea levels, which in turn is causing more extreme weather patterns, which in turn is causing drought in hotter regions of the country, of the world in hotter regions of the world, sorry. So to understand why that extreme weather is is so problematic, you have to take it yet again a step further, and think about the impact that has on humans. So what we tend to forget, you know, I'm someone who grew up in a city I've lived in a city my whole life it’s very, very easy to forget that our existence, our wellbeing is totally reliant on our environment. We like to think it's not because we've sort of separated ourselves from that in the last few 100 years. But of course, we all eat food every day, we need food to survive, that food is growing in our environment. So we're, we're totally reliant on a stable environment to to thrive and to exist as human beings. And so as that environment is being destabilised pretty rapidly, our existence as humans is, is under threat. And that what does that look like? That literally means that food is struggling to grow in many parts of the world and will increasingly be harder and harder to grow. Which means that people are starting to migrate to move to other areas where the weather is less hot, where, where it's where it's less unpredictable, that's causing mass migration, mass migration causes conflict, and so on and so forth. And so I sort of say that bit, because I think so often, when we talk about climate change, we talk about environmental impacts the sort of quite remote abstract things that icebergs are melting and coral reefs are dying, which are, which are sort of devastating things to learn that it's, it's hard to understand, how that impacts us in our everyday lives. And my sort of passion around climate change is trying to communicate the human impact of our changing, changing climate, trying to reframe it as not just an environmental issue, but an issue of human rights and social justice, which is, which is what it is. And we'll come on to this maybe a little bit later in more detail. But the sort of fundamental thing to understand with the impacts of climate change is that they're not fairly distributed. Not everyone is affected in the same way, people living in the Global South, for example, are far more impacted by climate change than those living in the Global North, because they're living in areas that are lower in terms of sea level, they're living in areas that are naturally hotter in terms of climate. And the significant thing to understand about that is these people are the ones who have done the least to cause climate change. So there's a deep injustice built into climate change, which is a deep irony, in a way a devastating irony, which is those who have done the least to cause climate change are suffering the most, at the impacts of it.
Gemma Styles: So I'd love to know, what's your, kind of what's your story in regard to this area? So you're now obviously somebody who knows a lot about this and knows a lot about the climate crisis. How did you personally come to be so passionate, make it so much of the work that you do? How did you kind of get more involved in climate in general?
Jack Harries: Yeah, for sure. So, so growing up, I was never, ever the climate or environment kid. I grew up in in London. As I said earlier, I was never particularly strong at sciences or even natural history. I wasn't that that kind of like natural history geek at school. I was like most ordinary kids. And but I suppose the small difference was that my mum was an environmental activist when I was growing up. And I have many memories of her taking my brother and I to protests. Um, for example, when they were trying to build the Heathrow third runway at the airport here in London, she would take us to picnics to protest the creation of that runway and those protests are still going on today. So it gives you a sense of how long people have been fighting this fight. I remember one day when my mum said to me and my brother, we were, must have been about eight or nine, she said, Mummy's going to lock herself to the Houses of Parliament today, I may be arrested. But don't worry, I'll be home in time for breakfast. So, so that's the kind of woman my mum was. And from a young age, I think it inspired this sense of, of not waiting around for people to sort things out. This this need for us to sort of go out and take and take action ourselves. That said, for most of my childhood, I thought she was just completely bonkers. And I didn't understand the issues at all, I didn't understand the significance of them, I sort of had a sense that she was doing a good thing, but I really didn't understand it deeply. And I left school at the age of 18, created a YouTube channel and started making films with my brother, very innocently and naively. We made films about all sorts of things and had the chance to travel a little bit, which was always our passion. And somewhere along that journey of running a YouTube channel and making films, we were approached by the WWF, the World Wildlife Fund, who came to us and said, Look, we'd love you to make a film about glacial retreat, about the fact that the glaciers are melting in Greenland. And you know, what would you How would you like to come up to the Arctic and make a film about this? And I'll be very honest, at that time, that my sole motivation was just that it sounded like a really exotic trip. It was just like, Oh, my God, that would be fun. The Arctic, you know?
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, who gets to go to the Arctic?
Jack Harries: Right. It was just like polar bears. Yeah, that sounds amazing. That was that was sort of my, as far as my interest went at that point. And so very naively, we went on this trip to make this documentary. And we joined a glaciologist called Alun Hubbard, who had been studying the ice sheet for 10 years. And he was going out there to do some, some scientific experiments, and we just joined him for for a week. And I'll never forget one day on that trip where we were dropped by helicopter on the Jakobshavn glacier, which is one of the most southern places in Greenland. And it's one of the fastest retreating, so the fastest melting, essentially, and we were dropped by helicopter and we were left to spend the night in tents on this on this glacier. And we were there to retrieve data from these time lapse cameras that were taking pictures of the glacier every few days. And that night that we slept, I was kept awake, by the sound of these apartment sized chunks of ice falling off the front of the glacier and crashing into the ocean beneath. The whole glacier would physically rumble and shake. And the next morning, we went to these cameras, and we retrieve the data. And when you play these photographs alongside each other, you could see huge chunks of this glacier falling off, in some cases, the size of Manhattan, I mean, huge. And speaking to Alun and understanding-
Gemma Styles: It’s just unimaginable.
Jack Harries: Yeah, it really is, and then the thing is with it is it's it's it's hard to understand unless you have the context unless you're there, it's very abstract, right? You hear about these things, we've all read these things that the the glaciers are melting and, and loads of coral reefs are dying. And, of course, it's devastating, but it's hard to process isn't it? It’s hard to make it tangible. And there was something about being there that night, that that made it incredibly tangible. I felt it, I heard it and I and I, I saw the look of fear, in Alun's face as he explained what was happening. And then for me, that was a real penny drop moment, it was you know, we were transported to the, to the real frontline of climate change. And I saw how our planet was changing. And in that moment, I understood that this would be the single most significant issue of our time, or I suppose I started to understand, you know, it was like this sort of slow awakening to this issue. So so that was like, that was my turning point, in terms of of feeling this issue. And I think that's, that's the journey we all have to go on with climate change. It's one thing to know it as you're saying, you know, we've all read lots, we’ve all heard lots, I think most young people today are very aware of climate change. How many of us feel it? You know, are processing the grief that comes with understanding the realities of the climate crisis? I think that is a another step. And I think that my challenge or our challenge as communicators is how do we make people feel this because it is so abstract, it is so untangible in a way, how do we make people feel it emotionally because it's, it's only then that we’ll act. To try and take action.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. And I think that is, I mean, in recent years, especially, I feel like even a few years ago, if you would have had, you know, like groups of young people, you know, what did you watch over the weekend? There's, there were very few people who would have been like, Oh, I, we all watched this great documentary. And I think because there are so many big things to be tackled at the moment, especially, and, like you say, you kind of have to, well you don't have to, but it if you're there and you can see something. It gives you a connection that you wouldn't have necessarily from, you know, reading a newspaper article. But saying that, you know, most of us can't go to the Arctic and see these glaciers.
Jack Harries: Of course.
Gemma Styles: So through documentaries and this kind of like activist filmmaking, I guess is how I would describe it, that is a way that people can really get to grips and actually have an experience of, of what's actually happening around the world. Is that kind of how, how did you come to realise that you were able to show people all these different things? Is that kind of something that you were quite used to doing, even from starting in YouTube kind of telling stories to people in quite a relatable way?
Jack Harries: Yeah, growing up, it was always my dream to make films and to tell stories in some capacity. My brother and I used to make loads of silly films growing up, it was just, you know, it was what we did for fun. And so when I was studying for my A Levels, I was watching a lot of YouTube as a form of procrastination. And it just seemed like the most incredible platform to me, it just seemed so exciting that kids essentially were, were making things from their bedrooms and broadcasting it to the world. And so when I finished school all I wanted to do was, was create a YouTube channel, and back then it was a, it was a totally different platform, there was no such thing as a YouTuber, no one made money, you know, it was just like, it was just intensely creative platform. And it was so much fun starting that channel, and, you know, a real shock to discover that there was an audience who wanted to watch these ridiculous things we were making from our bedroom, you know I very much just imagined it would be my grandma and a few friends that might watch it. So that was a bit of a shock. But I think when when with that, with a sort of an audience comes a responsibility. And I think I felt that really deeply that well, if people are going to watch these, these ridiculous videos, I think in my bedroom, I should be talking about something that matters that will impact people. And, and that was really where the the sort of storytelling around climate came in. And, and then as you said, you know, that it was a huge, immense privilege to be able to sit on that glacier and see those, those impacts firsthand. And, and with that, too, I felt that same responsibility to, to communicate this as best I could. And so that, after that experience in 2015, it led me to, over many years travel to a few of the different front lines of climate change. Often it would be with a charity, if I was doing some sort of photography trip or filmmaking, I would use that as an opportunity to, to tell the story. And that led me to go to Somaliland in 2017, during a really severe drought, and that was the first time I, I met individuals whose livelihoods are being impacted directly by the increasing temperatures. I met men and women whose cattle had died, which meant that they couldn't trade them for money, which meant they didn't have money to buy food, which meant they were going hungry. And I started to piece together how the changing climate was, was impacting people every day already, you know, and again, like as someone who lives in a city, we're not feeling the effects of climate change right now. But many millions of people are around the world. And I think what we need to get better at is telling those stories, or, you know, allowing for those people who live on the front lines to tell their own stories. And so that also led me to onto an island called Kiribati, which is in the South Pacific, it's one of the lowest lying countries in the world, at two metres above sea level. And there I met men and women who are building their sea walls higher and higher every year, because the sea level was rising. And that's threatening the way they live, their everyday existence. So much so that the, the Prime Minister of that country had bought land in Fiji in preparation to mass migrate the population to.
Gemma Styles: Wow.
Jack Harries: And so, going on these journeys helped me understand, helped me understand that it was a human rights issue, that it was a social justice issue, and meeting these people face to face and sort of hearing their stories firsthand, made me feel really angry at the at the injustice of climate change, it made me feel paralysed about how overwhelming it was. And I started to really search for what I could do about it. How can, How can I have an impact? And I think this is all of our questions. What can I do about climate change? I think that's the most common question I get. And it's a great one.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, I'm definitely gonna ask you for more thoughts on that. Because yeah, like you say, that's what we all want to know, right?
Jack Harries: Of course, everyone, everyone wants to take action on climate change, why wouldn't you? We're all aware that there is a sort of devastating situation unfolding. And of course, everyone wants to play their bit, to do something. But I think it's a it's a very complicated issue, because for years, you know, people for years there’s been this dominant narrative of hypocrisy, you know, while we're all complicit within the system that's led us to this point, so therefore, you can't talk out against it. And I think that's held many people back from talking about it. And also the sense as we sort of started by saying that it just is a very overwhelming issue. And so I think there's a strong sense of I don't know enough to talk about it. I certainly felt that for many years, you know, I sort of, I stopped making a lot of YouTube videos just to, to go away and to learn, I felt I didn't have the authority or the or the understanding to speak about it. And it's only very recently, that I've had the confidence to start to talk about it. Because I think we have to, even though I certainly don't know everything, I certainly don't have the solutions, but it's up to us to start to talk about it and not be afraid to get it wrong. And and to to acknowledge that we're all hypocrites as well.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. It's very, it's very easy to say, Oh, well, we need to change this entire system. But the fact is, we all live within those systems at the moment. And yeah, you can't, you can't switch everything off overnight. So I guess yeah, moving on to that. If people feel super overwhelmed listening to this conversation and thinking, Okay, what what do I do, then? How do we start to break that down and break that down into actionable points? What can individuals do at this point to start actually making a difference on these on these issues?
Jack Harries: Individuals can do everything to tackle climate change. In fact, it is the only hope we have is individuals. So rising up and tackling this issue. So the opposite, disempowered is the opposite of how we should be, should be feeling. I think there's there's two ways to understand taking action on climate change. And this isn't often spoken about, you have individual action, and you have, or individual change let's call it and then you have systemic change. And we hear a lot about the former, about individual change. And there's a lot of narratives around the fact that we all need to change our lifestyles, and that climate change is your fault so you need to change your life. And the fascinating thing on this is the idea of a carbon footprint, we're all aware of that that term, a carbon footprint.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Jack Harries: I don't know if you know this, but that was created by BP in the early 2000s. By marketing.
Gemma Styles: I learned this earlier this year. And it's… ugh, I feel so conflicted about it. And I've kind of briefly spoken about this online before, I think, because, yeah, the idea that, you know, it's the big corporations who have essentially created the bulk of this problem, who are then kind of media controlling us to feel that we’re the terrible ones for, you know, causing all of this, and it's our individual carbon footprints that are the problem. Ooh, it makes me feel really angry and resentful. But I also feel like it's too late to really get too caught up in that now. And just because I'm resentful that somebody has, you know, made me feel bad for my carbon footprint doesn't mean that I'm not also going to try and reduce it, do you know what I mean?
Jack Harries: I think you should feel angry and resentful, I think a little bit of that is, is really useful to move you to take action, you know, I think our generation should feel angry at generations before us. And, and I say this, having recently done a lot of research into climate denial by fossil fuel companies. And like, digging into that made me feel really really angry, and just a short example on that - in the 1960s, so for me when my parents were born, and probably most people listening around the time your parents were born, the the fossil fuel companies started doing a tonne of research into our changing climate and the impact of burning fossil fuels. And there are papers dating back as early as 1965, saying with complete clarity, that burning fossil fuels is changing the climate and threatens the future of all humanity. And these papers were shared internally between fossil fuel companies and essentially buried underground and these fossil fuel companies then went on to spend millions and millions into misinformation campaigns, in many cases literally taking out full page adverts in the New York Times sort of questioning the, the science and this was around the 1980s when the science started to become public knowledge. So we're in this situation as a result of some, some really terrible decisions by a select group of very powerful people. So I think it's important to understand that because it highlights the need for, for systemic change. You know, there's a very convenient narrative for these large corporations to suggest that it's just the fault of the individual, and that we need to change our own lifestyles. And that was why BP went about creating that carbon, carbon footprint. But so I think there's, just to go back to there's two there's two there are two levels to understand it. One is individual change, we do have to create individual change that is just a given. And what does that look like? Well, those are smaller more simple things like for example, adopting a plant based diet will drastically reduce your individual carbon footprint. Flying less will have a big impact on reducing your carbon footprint. Having less children will have a big impact on reducing your carbon footprint. These are all things that we do have to consider. We can't ignore that fact. But the important thing to state is that those things alone will never be enough. That it’s too- we're too late. It's too late just to make small micro change in our lifestyles, what we need is systemic change. And so then you ask the question, well, I'm just one person, how do I create systemic change? And that starts with an individual, it starts with an individual, coming and finding other individuals and coming together to collectively put pressure on governments and large corporations. And this was where I found myself in 2018, I had seen a lot of the firsthand effects of climate change, I've made a variety of individual lifestyle changes, I went vegan, five years before that, I reduced my flying, and I, you know, recycled more. I did all the things I was reading I should be doing, I bought from sustainable companies. And I realised it wasn't enough. And so it led me to meet a group of people who were were forming a group where they wanted to have 1000s of people take to the streets to engage in nonviolent direct action. And NVDA, nonviolent direct action, is a technique that's been used for, for centuries, I mean, time and time again, through many of the most famous social movements that we know, the civil rights movement, etc, you know, Gandhi used it in the salt marches. And, and that involves in people going out into the streets and, and, and peacefully protesting en masse. And this in 2018, in the UK, there was a group who were sort of trying to figure out how to do this in a big way. And they called themselves Extinction Rebellion. And I remember my first meeting with Roger Hallam, who created that, he said, I'm gonna get 1000s of people to get out in the streets and be arrested. And that day, I just thought he was completely insane. I was like, all right, Roger, good luck with that. Yeah, sounds like a big plan you got there, keep me updated. And then, you know, weeks later, I started to read about Extinction Rebellion in the papers. And I was like, wow, this guy is, he's really serious. And I, and I sort of got back in contact and, and ended up playing a big role in in- Well, a role, not a big role, but a role in sort of helping establish that in the UK. And, and that led me to glue my hands to the front of the International Petroleum Conference, and I sort of threw myself fully into, into this activism. And I, you know, I look back on that time, and I just really didn't know what else to do. And that was the only thing that made sense to me at that time. And I just think that the important thing to acknowledge there is, I also recognise that it was a real privilege, it came from privilege to be able to take that risk, to go out into the streets and get myself arrested. And that's not something, not a privilege afforded to everyone either. So it's certainly not the thing to do. It's not the one solution. It's, it's one piece of a puzzle of actions that are hopefully starting to shift the needle. And, you know, Extinction Rebellion appeared, at the same time as the youth strikes, which were an incredibly powerful tool of nonviolent direct action. Children, skipping school for one day to march in the streets. And these, the the point I'm making here is these, these were started, these ideas were started by individuals, and it took a number of individuals coming together and agreeing on this bigger idea. And the impact of Extinction Rebellion and the youth strikes has been huge systemic change, and I think it's hard to quantify it now. You know, I mean, the the UK declared a climate emergency after the first big rebellion in 2018. That's a, that's a major significant step forward. What it actually means, well, you know, we've we've yet to see, but I think we can't quantify the amount of ideas and thoughts and shifts in society and culture that are now in in process because of these these huge major actions. So I’ll just finish that that explanation with one quote, which I'll probably murder, but it's one of my favourite quotes it’s by a social anthropologist called Margaret Mead. And she says, “Never doubt, that a committed group of thoughtful citizens can change the world. Indeed, it's the only thing that ever has.” And I love that quote, because it's true. The only times we've ever created systemic change, which has happened lots before in history, is by a couple of individuals coming together and deciding to do something about it.
Gemma Styles: Absolutely. Obviously, I also live in London, and, you know, remember very well when Extinction Rebellion started popping up, if you like, you know, taking taking over streets and blocking bridges and all that kind of thing. And, you know, while you, we definitely heard lots of taxi drivers in the news who were irate about this. But to be honest, as far as, you know, people who I know, were largely very supportive of what you're doing and what, you know, what has been done by the entire movement because, yes, it's very disruptive but they make such a good point in that, you know, if you don't disrupt things to a certain extent, then like you say, we might not have declared a climate emergency because people weren't talking about it enough. I think it's so interesting to hear now that I've heard you talk about, you know, your upbringing and how your mum might have said to you like, well, I might be home tomorrow, ‘cos I might get arrested. And then the fact that you yourself were arrested at aclimate protest, it's such a such a, like generational loop. And it's a good way to show that you know, what, what we teach our kids now is stuff that they will carry through into their own lives. Saying that however, the thought of you know, going to a protest, and then getting arrested is quite scary to me. And I know, which you had also touched on, it is a privilege that not everybody has, you know, we're both white people, for example, you know, I don't think anybody living in the world knows, you know, it's, it's probably safer for us to be arrested than it is for lots of other people to be arrested. But it's still, you know, it's a big thing. And it's a big personal level of… I don't know if I want to say sacrifice, but you know, what I mean, it's, it's a big undertaking for somebody to go and, you know, put yourself in that position. If someone's, you know, if people are listening to this, and they want to get involved in these kind of ideas. The only thing that I don't want people to take away is that, you know, it's a question of you either compost at home, or you go out and get arrested. You know, there's there's obviously so many like levels in between this. And if you are, for example, if you're not, you know, if you don't live in a major city, like London, for example, where a lot of these big protests might happen, and I know they happen around the world, but I obviously use London as an example. If you're not living somewhere where these big things are happening, are there other ways that people can get involved with these kinds of protests? What are some other ways hopefully, that you know, you can be involved and make your voice heard, even if you're not necessarily right in the middle of the action?
Jack Harries: Thank you for saying that. I think that's an incredibly important point. Activism comes in many, many different forms. Going out into the streets and holding a banner and shouting from the top your voice is one example of activism. Activism can look like having a difficult conversation with your friends, it can look like doing something small in your local community, it can look like getting on social media and talking to your audience, it can look like making a piece of art that inspires people and makes them think differently. It comes in many, many different forms. And, and activism also isn't the only thing that we need to be doing. In fact, I'll argue that, that since 2018, things have moved quite quickly. So I think the best way to think about Extinction Rebellion, you're really right there when you were saying, it was really inconvenient, it inconvened a lot of people and the best way to think of it is a bit like a fire alarm. A fire alarm is loud, is inconvenient, it's unpleasant, but it's there to sort of save your life essentially, to draw attention to an issue. And I think that's what I see 2018 and 2019 was like with the youth strikes, and Extinction Rebellion, it was like sort of fire alarm going off. And I feel as though, perhaps it's just me in my bubble, it's it's very much a possibility we're all in our echo chambers, but I feel as though the world woke up to a degree to the reality of the situation we're facing. I think this year more than ever, we all woke up to the sort of common sense of fragility and the sort of threats that we face as humanity so I think now we need to move beyond that, we've done the fire alarm. Now we need to start to put the fire out and and and sort of rebuild the house as it were. Greta Thunberg talks about this idea that the house on fire. Well, we've raised the alarm, now we need to tackle the fire. And what does that look like? Well, tackling the fire i.e. tackling climate change requires every single one of us, from every walk of life, what we need to do now is to create a global transition to net zero essentially, to stop burning fossil fuels to rethink the way we live. That involves rethinking the way we eat, the way we travel, the way we communicate. I mean everything, the way we build clothes, the way we create products. And and that is going to take every single one of us so whether you're a scientist, whether you're a musician, whether you're a communicator, whether you're an engineer, whether you're- whatever it is your speciality is, you're needed in this movement, you know, whatever your skill set is. So I think the first step to understand how you can take action on climate change is ask what are you good at? For me, I recognise that my skill’s communication, and that, as a privileged individual, I felt a responsibility to go and take that risk of going out into the streets. That works for me in my circumstances, but it may be that your thing is, is science, you're really good at crunching numbers. My god, do we need more science on the impacts of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. And maybe the cool thing is, is ecosystem restoration. That's going to be a huge part of our future. So it's about transitioning our society to to tackle this huge issue of climate change. I think we've done a lot of the sort of alarm sounding I mean, that you know, there's always room for that, but now we just need to sort of get busy, basically. And, and and I think that's where this gets exciting, you know, we're coming hopefully out of this global pandemic into a new year. What do we want that year to look like? I think it's up to our generation to to build back better to start to create a sort of a green revolution, we're living in the the sort of result of the Industrial Revolution, which you know, our sort of parents parents lived through, that was a huge time of immense, unimaginable change. Back then they never could have imagined we would be where we are now, that we’re sat on laptops talking globally. So where could we be in the next 10 or 20, 30 years? That's what we need to start think about. And think about, What could be your role in creating that future?
Gemma Styles: I think you're totally right. And I think, especially when you say about kind of the alarm raising is extremely important. But it's kind of done, it's just whether people are listening to it or not? Like I know, a conversation that I've had before is kind of, you know, somebody might watch a climate related documentary. And then I've heard people say it so many times, they're like, we need to be teaching this in schools. And my answer to that is always - we are! Like, I learned about greenhouse gases, and about, you know, global warming, as we called it at the time, 15 or 20 years ago, you know, when I was at the beginning of secondary school, and then, you know, I, I taught science for a little bit, once upon a time, like, we do teach these things in school, we do already know these things. It's not that people don't know, it's that it has been much easier for people to know and forget. Forget just enough that we can sort of comfortably go on living everyday and not actually change too much. And I think you're totally right, I don't think that's an option anymore. And I don't think it's something that particularly this generation, and the upcoming generations, they're not going to tolerate it anymore, which I think and it feels, it feels kind of scary, then to not know what the world is going to look like. But I also think it can, you know, be quite exciting. Like you say, what can we do in the next 10, 20, 30 years? Like, there's so much that's changed in that time that's just gone before us. Do you think there's still, you know, space for us to be hopeful? Because it is very overwhelming, have we, you know, is- can we do it?
Jack Harries: It's a complicated question, that. I mean, it's, it's too late to stop climate change, we have to understand that, there's a level of acceptance, I think that has to come with understanding this issue is too late to stop climate change completely. We missed that, that point. What we do today, and every day going forward, will directly impact how bad it gets. So, so can we do something, is there reason for hope? Absolutely, every single thing each of us does, will directly impact how bad it gets, how many people suffer to be to be blunt about it. So So can we make change? Yes, we have to, we have no choice. It's all of our responsibilities, particularly those of us who are living in the globalised North who benefit from the many privileges that we’ve, you know, grown up with, we have a greater responsibility than most to do something about it. And there is so much we can do. And I think, you know, that is what the strikes have proven, I find my hope in and it sounds perhaps a bit cliche, but I really do find my hope in the youth and in the next generation, watching them. Because we have, we have more tools than ever before to do this. We have more tools to organise, to educate one another, to come together and to take action. And we've seen that happen even this year, you know, around the brutal murder of George Floyd and and the resurgence of the Black Lives Matter protests. Instagram transformed to become a place of activism, and educate- and educating one another. And that makes me feel really excited because I feel in a way as a generation we're only just waking up to the tools that we have our fingers. Even this using Zoom to record a podcast would have been crazy a year ago, you know, so we had we had this technology, we just hadn't really- I suppose the pandemic forced us to think creatively about how to organise and how to connect with one another. And so we have all the tools we need and and our generation are so woke on these issues. I mean, regularly I’ll go and do a talk in a school or something. And I just feel embarrassed by how much more the audience know than me. I mean, really, we you know, we don't- as you say we we learn about this, the you know, kids are growing up with this as their reality every day. They're not stupid. They're very aware of what's happening in the world. And so I have all the faith that our generation- what I love seeing is that our generation are just questioning everything. Fast fashion, we're questioning that. The way we eat, we're questioning that. The way we we move around, you know? Mental health. You did an amazing podcast on mental health. We're questioning our mental health and wellbeing, our generation are sort of calling into question everything. And that is the first step to creating change, right? To pull back that sort of thick curtain that protects us from seeing the process involved behind a lot of what we take for granted every day. And and you start to sort of pull it apart and ask questions. Well, why are things this way? And is that the best thing for for people and for planet? And I think more often than not, the answer is no.
Gemma Styles: So I want to ask you about your platform at the moment, so to talk about Earthrise Studio, can you tell us a little bit about that? So this is about communicating the climate crisis. So what is it that you're, what is it that you're aiming to do with that platform? And you know, is it something that people listening can get involved in?
Jack Harries: Yeah, I think there's there's two sort of central aims with creating that platform. We've talked a lot in this conversation so far about the fact that climate change is an overwhelming and intimidating topic to learn about. And so this idea was first sort of born out of myself, my brother, Finn, and my partner, Alice, all of our frustrations of learning about climate change, and just feeling it- and just finding it so incredibly difficult to navigate. And I remember subscribing to every environmental newsletter I could find, and every day, my inbox would be flooded with these overwhelming graphs and numbers. And it was, it was a lot. And it just, I felt like, how are millions and millions of people meant to learn about this issue, if this is the way we're sort of, if this is the only way to learn about it. So Earthrise was really born out of the idea of trying to create a platform that would take the information on climate change and simplify it down in a way that was understandable, and also in a way that was in, in our language, in the language our generation’s used to, which is Instagram and, and, you know, this year, we saw the explosion of infographics on Instagram, which I think is such an incredible way to communicate. And you know, if it's designed well, it makes it shareable. So, you know, our question was, how can we make something that someone would A, enjoy reading, but then B, also feel motivated to share onto their story or that page, because that's how we can get people talking about these issues. So that was the sort of first part of creating the platform. And then the second was Finn and Alice and I had just been following so many amazing youth activists around the world who are really at the forefront of tackling this issue. And we wanted to create a platform where we could spotlight those individuals. And, you know, I, I, I feel very uncomfortable about the fact that I often centre myself in these conversations, as you've rightly pointed out, I'm a white, privileged man, you know, I think there are far too many people like me that have been in this conversation traditionally. And so whilst I was talking about this stuff on my page, I really wanted to create a space that wasn't about me as an individual, a space where we could spotlight other people who are doing far more impressive work on this topic, and a space where we could sort of highlight the information without centering ourselves as individuals. So that was the idea of creating Earthrise Studio and we launched it earlier this year, around summer time, and it's, it's been an amazing experience. It's been a huge learning curve, for sure. You know, we, we started just by looking at all these infographic accounts that we were really inspired by, and you know, that feeling when you're like, I want to do that, but I just don't know how to do that. I don't have the skill yet. What is it they're doing? And how are they doing it? And so it took a while of playing around and experimenting. And I think we've only just started to really find our feet in the last few months, but it's been really rewarding. It's grown to 100,000 followers in the few months we've been running it and it, it just to be honest, like, selfishly, it makes me feel more hopeful, because I see young people out there who are engaging with this issue, and are talking to one another, and, and learning and sort of making suggestions and getting involved in a community. And that that makes me feel very hopeful. So So yeah, that was that sort of idea behind launching it. And going forward our our aims, aspirations are really to start creating more video content through Earthrise. So we started with these infographics, which have been really sort of exciting to play with. And then the next step is to to start to make video content on YouTube, which is where I, I started, so a few ideas for that. We’re going back home.
Gemma Styles: So I feel like I mean, just touching on, on what you've just said, you know, making it something that's accessible and shareable and things that people can connect to, and in video. I just can't help myself, asking you about- you interviewed Sir David Attenborough. Which I think, when was that? I think, I think I was this year as well. I mean, I feel like David Attenborough is one of the most kind of accessible figures in terms of, you know, people getting that look on, on the climate crisis from an emotional standpoint. And I don't really understand why this is. But I think a lot of people, you know their emotional connections don't always even come from seeing the impacts on other people. But seeing the impact on animals is gut wrenching. So you interviewed him around A Life on Our Planet, which I actually put off watching for a while, because I knew that it was going to be super emotional. And I just don't think in that particular month, or whenever it was that I didn't watch it for, I don't think I felt like I quite had the strength for it. But it's a great, it’s a great film. And it's, you know, it's one of these things where you come away and you feel, you go through all the motions of the, the terror and like you said earlier, you know, the grief over realising what we've done. But then you also come out with that bit of hope at the end, you know, what, what, yeah, what what was all that like?
Jack Harries: I mean, meeting and interviewing Sir David Attenborough, was without doubt, the most nerve wracking thing I've [laughing] ever done in my life.
Gemma Styles: I can only imagine.
Jack Harries: He’s a, he's, he's a, He's a legend. He's an icon, he is the original climate, or you know, science, communicator isn’t he. I mean, I think most of our generation grew up watching his programmes. And as you say, he just has this uncanny ability to, to make you feel emotional, and to fall in love with the natural world in the way that he so clearly, does, and has. And so, yeah, I've always looked up to him. And, but that came about because, well actually through the WWF, who I worked with all those years ago, they they had a role in producing that film, A Life on Our Planet. And one of the producers from WWF just called me up one day and was like, how would you like to interview Sir David, to travel out to the Maasai Mara where he's shooting the sort of, the final scenes of his movie, and I made a sort of behind the scenes to go to go along with it for Netflix and, and they said, you also have a chance to interview him. And I, I remember turning up at the house he was staying at, which is kind of almost exactly what you, where you imagine Sir David Attenborough would stay, it’s a lodge in the middle of the Maasai Mara, where like giraffe walk through the garden, it's like, an unbelievable place. And he always has stayed there regularly over the years. And we, we went there. And as we got out of the car, he was in the middle of presenting a piece in the garden, and like, I couldn't see him, but I, all I could hear was the intonation of his voice, you know, like [impression]. And I was like, Oh, my God!
Gemma Styles: Oh my God.
Jack Harries: And was just made 10 times more nervous. But, um, you know, it was, like, obviously, it was it was just a real privilege. And he's such an incredible, incredible man, you know, he's, he's 94. And he's still out in the Maasai Mara making nature programmes. And it is fascinating just to speak to him about where we are now, because you realise how recent it is that we have the understanding we do, you know, he, when he started off, it just wasn't a consideration, that the climate was changing the way it was, and that we were losing species in the way that we are. And so he's had to kind of adopt a whole new role as as an activist, and, and I don't think that sits very comfortably with him at all, you know, that’s certainly not what he set out to do. He's a very sort of just gentle, sweet natured nature lover. And, and this new role as sort of like an activist and sort of fire alarm ringer, as it were, I think, is a bit of a shock for him. But he, he's doing it. And I really admire him for that, you know, I think the decision to make this film which, which he calls his witness statement, and it's really a sort of call to arms to the next generation to act, is a really admirable one, at the age of 94. So yeah, I have a lot of respect.
Q&A
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Gemma Styles: Every week, I'll be asking my guests some of your questions. And the first one comes in from Sam, who says,
I want to know how to get my family to start taking action and how to convince them to do so. I know it's really hard to just flip the way that you do things. But I really care about the climate, and I'm scared for my future. Any ideas on how to start the conversation and make sure we enforce climate safe ideas in my house?
Jack Harries: I think this comes back to what we were talking about the start, which is to make anyone understand climate change, and feel moved to take action. And I think we have to make people feel emotional about it, help people feel emotional about it. And for me, I think that comes with talking about the human impact of climate change, talking about the sort of the injustice that comes with climate change, because I think we all care about human rights. I hope most people in the world have a sort of common sense of humanity and care about the wellbeing of other people. And I think so often that part of the conversation is missed when we talk about climate change, you know, if you sort of start talking about 1.5 and two degrees and that melting glaciers and you know, Amazon rainforests, it can be a lot and overwhelming and it's easy to disconnect from, but when you talk about, you know, men and women who are struggling to put food on the table because of the changing climate today, and that by changing our lifestyles in some way, shape or form, we can alleviate that suffering for future generations, it becomes a lot more real becomes a lot more tangible. So, so make it emotional is how I would approach talking to anyone who, who is either a climate denier? Or sort of just isn't that switched on to the issue?
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think I would say to that as well, you know, if, if your parent/parents, you know, caregivers, whoever are, um, somebody who isn't really turned on to this issue yet, and isn't kind of connected to that emotional side of how it affects other people. Let them know how you feel about it, and how much, you know how much you care and how much it upsets you. And also kind of see if you can almost sort of form a role for yourself as like, the climate officer of your house. So if you're, you know, if you're saying to your family, you know, I don't want to throw away our food waste anymore. I say food waste, we did an episode episode on food waste this series. But you know, you're saying, you say to whoever's in your house, you know, I want to start composting our food waste, and they go, Oh, that sounds like a faff, I don't want to do that. Then you be the one who says, Okay, well, I'll, I'll take care of everything, all you have to do, is instead of putting the food scraps in the normal bin, you know, you sort out the container, you be in charge of disposing of it, or sorting out the compost heap or whatever. Just, yeah, take charge in your house, you know, you be the one who goes around turning the lights off when people leave the room and don't do it, you can definitely you know, lead by example in your own home, I think.
Jack Harries: Yeah, we're having to parent our parents, but I suppose that is what young people do around the world, you know, the fact that young people being like, Alright, Look, you've clearly not got this under control. I'm gonna leave school to do your job for you, you know, to world leaders like- that is where we're at. So I agree. Yeah, take take take initiative yourself, you know, don't think anyone else is going to do it for you. Why shouldn't it be us?
Gemma Styles: Yeah, exactly. So I kind of love this question because of how they signed it off. It makes me feel like I'm an agony aunt and have a column, because this question they signed themselves as Introverted Earth Lover. So this question, they’re saying,
I've recently read about how things individuals do for the environment, for example, recycling or reducing our carbon footprint, are actually designed by industries to place the burden of climate change on individuals? Is there anything we can truly do as individuals?
So I feel like we've answered that above, but they say
I want to help so badly, but I'm not very good at holding anyone other than myself accountable.
So I guess, if I can round out that question, given the context of what we've already talked about… How do we actually hold people accountable? So if we know, for example, that our government isn't going to hit its climate targets? Who, who exactly in practical terms, do we complain to, almost, about that? If we're not going to a protest, what do we do?
Jack Harries: So I guess we have a number of ways to exercise our voice when it comes to politics, the most obvious one is voting, if you're above the age of 18. And, you know, we just had the US election, and we've seen how important it was for young people to vote and the youth vote swung that election to be in support of Biden, and that, in itself is, is probably one of the most significant climate changes there’s been in the last few years. And Biden has an incredible $2 trillion climate plan versus Trump who had pulled out of the Paris Climate Agreement. So voting is not to be underestimated. Um, besides that, then it's writing to your MPs. And besides that, then it's getting out into the streets and making your voice heard. And there's a there's a number of ways that we can sort of make our voice heard. But yeah, don't don't underestimate the power of your vote.
Gemma Styles: Like that. Next question is from Kirsten, who says,
Would the actions we take now against climate change only make a difference for future generations? Or could we see the benefit in our lives in real time? Would we see enough change for it to make our lives safer currently?
Jack Harries: 100%. I think for a long time, we've talked, when it, when it comes to climate change, we've talked about it being something in the future, like future generations. And that's, that's no longer the case. What we're talking about is our lives, we're talking about the next 10, 20, 30 years. Climate change is here. It's happening. And it's it's it's speeding up. So we will see all of the impacts of climate change in our lifetime. And conversely, we will benefit from taking action in our lifetimes. This isn't about our kids, kids. It's about our lives and then, you know, generations beyond.
Gemma Styles: Excellent. Okay, last question is from Layla, who asks,
How can we tackle climate change realistically while taking care of our mental health?
I know this is something you've talked about before as well.
Jack Harries: This is a big one, it's a really big one, I think, facing these issues and confronting these issues can take a huge toll on your mental health. And that's definitely something I've experienced personally. I think from a personal standpoint, I find an immense amount of purpose in trying to tackle climate change. I've always said that the, the antidote to anxiety is action. And so you know, it is anxiety inducing to learn about these, these these things. Climate, climate, anxiety, climate grief are very real things I think many of our generation have to contend with. I found personally that the best way to deal with that is A, taking action in whatever way works for you and your your lifestyle, and B, finding community. I think the thing that makes climate anxiety worse is the idea that you're the only one that feels like this. And it can be very isolating learning about climate change, especially if you you know, you chat to your mates, you're like, I can't believe this happening. And they're like, What are you talking about? You know, you're the, you know, there's no apocalypse coming. You're crazy. Whatever, you know, and you feel like, Oh my God am I the only one who's reading these headlines? Who's feeling this overwhelmed? There are millions of people out there who are feeling exactly the same way you are. And I think for me, finding Extinction Rebellion, for example, was a huge source of community, because it was a group, a large group of people who, who felt the same that I did. Felt as angry and as scared as worried. And so that was a, there was a catharsis in finding that community. And so yeah, I think my answer to that is that I- and it’s personally, right, because we're all different. But I have found catharsis in, and relief in, in tackling, trying to tackle these issues and finding community in doing that.
Gemma Styles: Remember, if you want to get in touch with us, or you've got any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.
recommendations
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Gemma Styles: Before you go, I've got three things I ask of every guest and that's if listeners want to learn more about climate change or climate action. Could you give us something to read something to listen to? And something to watch, please?
Jack Harries: Yeah, for sure. So, my, my book to read is called We Are the Weather by Jonathan Safran Foer, and I am a huge fan of Jonathan's work, he wrote a book called Eating Animals, which I read a number of years ago, and it inspired my decision to adopt a plant based diet. This new book is about climate change. Um, but he just writes so beautifully, is so lucid and heartfelt and compassionate. And it makes climate change a lot more understandable. And he talks about how what we eat has a big impact on the planet, and therefore, that we can take action by deciding what to eat three times a day, and it makes it feel very tangible as a way of taking action. I think the subline of the book is like “why saving the world starts at breakfast” or something like that.
Gemma Styles: Oh I love that.
Jack Harries: And it's just it's a really, it's a lovely read, and it makes taking action feel a lot more tangible. So that would be my, my book to recommend. In terms of listen, my my favourite podcast, besides yours, Gemma…
Gemma Styles: [laughing] Oh, you don't need to, don’t worry.
Jack Harries: [laughing] Is there a podcast called Outrage and Optimism, which is by Christiana Figueres, and Tom Rivett-Carnac and Paul Dickinson. And Christiana Figueres, was one of the key architects of the Paris Climate Agreement in 2015, which we don't need to go too much into, but it was a major sort of landmark piece of legislation when it comes to tackling climate change. She's just the most unbelievably inspiring, badass woman and a brilliant speaker on this topic, on the topic of climate change. And so is her sort of co host, Tom Rivett-Carnac. And then that's a podcast where they interview different guests each week, and I find that just really helps to distil this topic and makes me feel a little bit more, um, calmer, I think, listening to it each time. And so yeah, and maybe just to talk about the name, it's called Outrage and Optimism because Christiana talks about this idea of the fact that we need to be both outraged by what's happening, but also optimistic for the future. And she talks a lot about this idea of a stubborn optimism, you know, and I think this year has probably required us all to have a certain degree of stubborn optimism and I think that probably is the key to to making some of the huge transitions we have to do over the next next 10 years. So So I love that podcast and, and then in terms of what to watch, my favourite documentary that I've watched in the last few months is My Octopus Teacher on Netflix. I don’t know if you've had a chance to see that?
Gemma Styles: I haven't seen it but I've seen the trailer for it and I thought… that looks like an- odd watch, an interesting watch. I haven't watched it yet, but I'd love to hear why you're telling me I should.
Jack Harries: It’s definitely an odd one, Gemma, but I wholeheartedly recommend it and it's only going to sound stranger when they explain the premise but it is the story, true story of a man who develops a relationship with an octopus and is a beautiful love story essentially.
Gemma Styles: Okay!
Jack Harries: But it's, it's it's so fantastically made. It took 10 years to make the documentary. And he is a free diver. He holds his breath and he dives off the coast of South Africa. And he goes every day and over that time, he develops this relationship with an octopus and he films it and he starts to learn more about the octopus’ life. And really, it's a bigger story of respecting the greater intelligence of nature and wildlife and understanding that there's a much deeper intelligence at play than we often give credit for. And yeah, I just found it beautiful and inspiring and uplifting, and I wholeheartedly recommend it.
outro
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Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening to Good Influence. And thank you Jack for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, please take a minute to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player or wherever you're listening. And if you're feeling generous rate and review too. It's really appreciated and helps other people find the podcast. See you next week!