S01E10 Transcript: Millie Gooch on Going Alcohol Free
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intro
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Gemma Styles: Hello, I'm Gemma and welcome to another episode of Good Influence. This is the podcast where each week you and I meet a guest who will help us pay attention to something we should know about as well as answer some of your questions. This week we're talking about going alcohol free; a new movement of people who are sober curious, the role of technology in our nights out, and what can be gained from ditching the drink. So joining me this week is Millie Gooch. Millie is a journalist, author and founder of community The Sober Girl Society, which she describes as ‘a happy place for sober and sober curious women to celebrate being hangover free’. Her new book, The Sober Girl Society Handbook comes out on the 14th of January 2021.
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Gemma Styles: This is, this is my 2021 thing. I'm actually trying to be better hydrated, but I've already neglected that was morning ‘cos I was like, ooh, I don’t really want to need a wee in the middle of a podcast so…
Millie Gooch: Oh, I don't mind if you go, that’ll be me if it’s not you.
Gemma Styles: [laughing] I’ll be like Oh sorry can I just pop off?
Millie Gooch: [laughing] That’s alright!
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discussion
Gemma Styles: So I guess where I want to start, if that's okay, is, can I ask you to tell us a bit about your kind of history with alcohol and how you came to give it up?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, of course. So I started drinking when I went to uni. So before uni, I wasn't really a drinker. A lot of my friends did the whole like, 14, White Lightning, drunk at a park, but I actually didn't start drinking really, till I went to university. And and so then I became someone who all of a sudden had gone from not drinking at all to like binge drinking three, four nights a week, like I was the ultimate fresher. And I started working in different bars, in different clubs. And all of a sudden drinking just became this thing that I like, adored. And at the time, this is when like Geordie Shore was in it's like a real infant- like infancy. So we used to, you know, think it was great to go out and get absolutely ‘mortal’ and not think about the consequences at all. So I suddenly became this like ultimate party girl. And then towards the end of uni, I kind of noticed I was like blacking out more, I was waking up in places that I didn't want to, spending my whole weekend hungover, like failing a little bit at uni. And I just carried on with that kind of habit. So like I left university, I started working in PR then I worked in journalism. And the blackouts got worse and a bit scarier. The hangover anxiety became sort of, like crippling, so my beer fear wasn't just Sunday for a few hours feeling a bit on edge. It was Sunday, Monday, Tuesday, thinking What have I done? Who have I offended? Who have I upset? And I had this kind of like underlying sadness all the time as well. And I never really pinpointed it to my drinking. I was just like this kind of goldfish who would go out on Friday be hung over Saturday, Sunday. And then, you know, Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, would just start feeling better again. And Thursday, I'd be like, I know what I want to do. I want to go out and drink. And I was kind of it- before I even realised alcohol had kind of become something that I felt like I needed rather than like I even wanted anymore. I felt like I needed it for confidence. I felt like I needed it for like social anxiety. And it just became this like thing that I needed. And I'd never needed it before I'd started drinking. And so I went I went through a really bad breakup towards the end of like 2017. And my drinking just escalated. So I was out every weekend because of course that is how we are taught to deal with heartbreak is to, you know, go out and drink as much so that you forget they even exist, but it just made me feel more miserable and worse. And I was just at like a really, really low point. And I went out on a night out on February 2018. And I woke up the next morning, I don't remember any of my night, my friend told me that I tried to throw her burrito out of an Uber window. And that is like that is all the anecdotes from that night.
Gemma Styles: A crime.
Millie Gooch: Yeah, exactly. Such a reckless careless attitude towards Mexican food. And I woke up the next day and just thought- I had a text as well from someone who I couldn't have picked out of a lineup that said It was nice to meet you. You were so drunk last night. And I just thought and I remembered that a few weeks before I'd read this article in Stylist. And it was an interview with a woman called Catherine Gray and she’d just written a book called The Unexpected Joy of Being Sober. So I thought I know what I'm gonna do. I'm gonna download that audio book that I read about. And reading that book just changed my opinion on sort of like not drinking and sobriety all together. I up until that moment had never ever thought that like not drinking was something I could do. I’d always kind of thought drinking was something I needed to moderate or I needed to learn to make work in my life like I needed cut down. I never even thought I could just take it off the table altogether for some unknown reason that thought just didn't really occur to me. And so that day I said, I'm never drinking again. Of course, I told all my friends and they thought it was hilarious because I'd probably said that about 72 times at that point. Yeah. And that that that was it, that I decided that I was never drinking again and stuck to it. And here we are three years later.
Gemma Styles: God yeah, I mean, that's amazing. Like, you, it is- you kind of laughed when you said it, because it is that typical thing, isn't it of like, it's the thing people say when they've got a really bad hangover, the like Oh, I'm never drinking again. But you know, but but is an actual possible thing that you can decide to do.
Millie Gooch: Yeah, it seems like just a throwaway comment. I mean, if you, I keep all my WhatsApp conversations, if I search, I'm never drinking again, it brings up so many conversations where I've said it over and over again.
Gemma Styles: I mean, it's amazing that you actually then did do that. I'm quite, I'm quite interested in what you say about hangover anxiety. And that kind of the role that that had in your decision not to drink because it's something that I do hear talked about a lot. And I've thought about this before, because weirdly, I don't think I get hangover anxiety. And I can't decide whether that's because I just don't or because I generally have so much anxiety that it just doesn't really differentiate itself from one to the next. [both laugh] But I know that this is a real thing. And there's the friends of mine who you know, talk about hangover anxiety, and you do get that real sort of feeling of dread that then comes on a hangover. Would you say that makes up a good percentage of people who you speak to? Who kind of is that quite a common motivating factor in the decision to stop drinking?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, 100%. I would say the amount of people who say to me that hangover anxiety and like the after effects are kind of what stops them and drinking is, honestly so many people. I think as well, the more we've kind of spoken about mental health and more people are happy to talk about anxiety. And now the more we're happy to talk about hangover anxiety. So I would say like, yeah, most of the people who come to me, I think because I talk about it quite a lot, just really identify with that kind of part of the story.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think it's one of those things, isn't it? Like when you start talking about some areas of mental health that kind of knocks on and you end up talking about other areas. But yeah, just I think that's, I think that's really great that, you know, there's enough conversation around mental health that people are feeling more kind of confident in their decision to base it on their own mental health and have people you know, that's the reason that they give, you know, I'm not drinking for my mental health and, you know, feel confident to be able to say that to people.
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I think so, like such a change now.
Gemma Styles: Um, could you tell us a bit more about Sober Girl Society and how you came to set that up? And kind of what, what would you say is the main kind of role of that community now for you?
Millie Gooch: Yeah. So when I was, I was about seven months sober. And I’d kind of got to the point with sobriety where I was, I was really loving it. And I just felt like, there was kind of something that I wanted to kind of hold me to carrying it on. I think, at that point, I could have thought, right, I'm either gonna go back and we can just keep doing this in a loop, or I can really stick with this. And at the time, I didn't know a single other person who didn't drink, let alone like, one who was kind of like my age, working in London, still going out, still wanted to have fun. So I thought, I know why don't I like set up an Instagram page, because I'd followed people like Anti Diet Riot Club and kind of like communities who all had like a special interest in common. So I thought, I'm gonna set up this page, maybe we could just kind of like talk about sober dating, maybe we could talk about the best non alcoholic wine. And I thought maybe there'd be like 15 or 20 of us, maybe we can meet up and have a coffee in London. And all of a sudden, it just like boomed and more and more people started coming to the page with their kind of like different experiences of alcohol and not drinking and sobriety, literally, all over the world. I just kind of intended to very, very, like local things. So then we started running events and meetups because a lot of people don't necessarily want to go to AA and want to do 12 steps. So we wanted to offer like a different type of community that people could just come meet other people who are doing their, same things as them show them that they could still have fun without drinking. So we do like a bottomless boozeless brunch. So it's exactly the same, just as rowdy as any bottomless brunch that you go to, but no one throws up in a Bellini jug. [laughs]
Gemma Styles: Glorious.
Millie Gooch: Exactly. And we do like dancing events as well, because one of the big things that I hear from people is how am I going to dance now that I don't drink?
Gemma Styles: [laughs] Yeah, I've heard that before.
Millie Gooch: Yeah. So we do things like that. And you know, we run virtual things, we do like a pen pal scheme. So the whole, the whole point of it really is for people to find friends, because I always say like, my friends were so supportive. And I'm very lucky because I know not everyone's friends kind of, like get on board with this. But even still, it's like, if you're the only single one in your friendship group, it doesn't matter if all your friends are like married and with kids, they could be as lovely and as supportive to you as possible, but they don't get what it's like to be the only single one. So my friends didn't get what it was like to be a sober one, they couldn't give me advice on these kind of things. So it felt really important to me to meet other people who I could talk to about this sort of stuff. And then I found such like, greatness in that, that I wanted other people to experience it too. So yeah, connection is like the the main part of the community and just speaking to each other about each other's experiences, holding each other accountable. And just showing that there's other people doing it and that you're not like on your own or some kind of like, weirdo because you don't drink.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I can imagine that's really helpful for anyone in that kind of position. I mean, I think in any position, really, it's always nice to be able to find people who are in a, in a similar, similar situation to you. And when you describe Sober Girl Society, you say it's for sober and ‘sober curious’ people, which isn't really a kind of term I've come across before. So how would you maybe describe somebody who is sober curious, and how do they tend to engage with your community?
Millie Gooch: So this is actually a very interesting question, because sober curious has kind of like taken on a new meaning. So it was actually coined by Ruby Warrington, who's got a book of the same name, Sober Curious, which is a great read. And she kind of talks about sober curiosity, as you know, your your default is kind of like sobriety. But then if you want to say, like, have a glass of wine at Christmas, or you're at a gig and you want a couple of beers, then you might do that. But it's more questioning everything to do with your relationship with alcohol, like, Why are you drinking? Are you drinking because you want to celebrate? Are you drinking because you're kind of like stressed and or bored. But then the other kind of side is that sober curious is just people who are curious about going sober long term. So they're saying, you know, like I've done a month, I'm thinking about doing it longer. So actually, there's like two meanings of sober curious, so we kind of encompass all of them. And we also use the word mindful drinker, which is kind of more, it's bigger in the UK than it is in the US, which is just being a lot more mindful about your alcohol consumption. So like, again, thinking about the motivations behind your drinking, are you drinking and making this like a negative coping mechanism? Or are you drinking because you're raising a toast, because you've got like a job promotion? So there's like, that's a real aspect of it as well, so the community kind of incorporates everyone, like, I have no desire to convert everyone in the world to sobriety that's not my goal, I just want to show people that, actually, if you want to cut down or you want to take a month off, or you just want to know more about alcohol and what it actually does to your body, then you can come you can learn those things. And then if you want to leave, you can, if you want to come back at some points, we get people who like, come in January, leave come back in October. So they’re you're kind of like sober curious audience. But a lot of people say, you know, like, I've got no intention to stop drinking full time, but I like seeing your posts because it like reminds me to kind of like, keep my drinking in check. So, I mean, I'm a massive, like harm reduction advocate, even just like dry January, I'm a big fan of taking 31 days off, resetting your relationship, all those things, I'm a huge fan of.
Gemma Styles: I was going to ask you how you felt about dry January, as we are, you know, in the midst of January now, it's like, that kind of thing. And I've seen a lot of people talking about dry January this year, mainly because- so we're both in the UK, and just going into another several weeks of lockdown. And I've, I've actually had the conversation with someone who was kind of like, Oh, well, you know, that's dry January out the window. And I think it's such a, it's such an interesting conversation to have, because there's so many kind of like nuances to it in terms of on the one hand, you know, I'm thinking if, you know, having a glass of wine and having a- however you drink, you know, if that's something that you enjoy, I'm sort of at the opinion, of the opinion at the moment that this is no time to be putting, you know, additional restrictions on yourself if you know, we're already going through so much as it is. However, it does kind of bring up that thing of like, okay, but are you drinking to cope your way through lockdown, which again, like no judgement from me, but also, is that the healthiest way to do things?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, it's a completely nuanced conversation. You have got like both sides of it. And one of the tricky things is like we are noticing a lot of people are using it as like a coping mechanism which, like you say is completely fine. But then we're noticing a lot of people have increased their drinking since the last lockdown. And then will it increase again this one? And then does that healthy, like unhealthy coping mechanism become your main unhealthy coping mechanism? And then does it get worse from there? But then there's also like the wider conversation of you know, there's a lot more people drinking in in lockdown, and the NHS are experiencing the fallout of that when they already have like a lot to do. Actually, alcohol can make your anxiety worse, if you're already feeling really anxious and you're struggling with your mental health in lockdown, you might think it's a good coping mechanism at the time, it's not always and you know, for your immunity. Alcohol is so good for cutting out of your like, for your health for your immune system and staying healthy. So there's, there's so many like different parts of the conversation that it is really tricky. I don't think we should like discourage people from doing dry January. And I think it's also really interesting, like when we talk about alcohol, is like cutting it out is a restriction. I always used to think this way, I always used to think like, it's a complete restriction. But actually, you realise that you gain quite a lot as well so you gain like more energy, more time, more clarity, more money, all those kind of things, we always see it as, like a restriction. And that's like a real mindset shift that I've even had to go through is actually it's not a restriction. It's freeing for me, because I've like, got less anxiety, my mental health is better, like I wake up fresh in the morning and don't feel like ashamed of my behaviour the night before. So for me, it's like, not a restriction. So I think like that has been like a big kind of like mindset shift as well.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's really interesting hearing you talk about it, because it instantly kind of makes me realise the ways that I think about drinking. So it's kind of even how you said before, you know, you just never considered the fact that not drinking was an option.
Millie Gooch: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: I don't know. It's just it's, it's a weird one when you've never come across it. And yeah, I think reframing it as you know, what you would gain by not drinking…
Millie Gooch: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: And even having that reset of, you know, taking some time off, I think could be, could be a real good thing. It's a good way to think about it that you don't hear too much of I don’t think. So your community is based around women, and women abstaining from alcohol. Do you tend to find that it- I mean, is there kind of a specific reason for that? Do you think that women's relationship with alcohol tends to be different? Or is that just the kind of the community that you have built around your own experience?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, that is the community I've built around my experience. But there is also a complete lack of male communities in this kind of like sober sphere online. I think, again, because a large part of it is themental health angle now. Women are still like, first ones in the conversation about mental health. So I think that has been a thing. But there is a lot of theories about the way that men and women drink differently. So the idea is that women drink more for emotional reasons. So for stress, relaxation, having kids, that kind of thing. Whereas men will drink more socially, like that's one of their main reasons. So when they're with the lads, and they're out with boys, that that tends to be when they will drink more. I mean, this is very, like loose theory, there's no nothing to say you're a man you drink this way, you're a woman you drink that way. But that's kind of like the rough idea. And I mean, also, alcohol does affect women differently. Our genetic makeup means that even if I drink exactly the same as a man, I am more at risk of the damage of it just because of my genetics and my body fat and water percentage. And also women don't have an enzyme that men have that helps break down alcohol. So we are more at risk. So I think in that case, we are suffering more of the consequences. And I mean, there's also a whole other wider conversation of like vulnerability and things like that. I know that I put myself in a lot of dangerous situations and things like that is is again, that is a very wide nuanced conversation. But I think women are just leading this kind of movement, and I think men will follow, I've seen a lot more men talking about sobriety this year than when I first set up Sober Girl Society, but I still think it's like, it's not very in, in a lot of men’s eyes I imagine it's not seen as very manly to stop drinking, which is a problem in itself.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. Yeah, I mean, there’s countless things that are all tied up in the hell of toxic masculinity. It's not hard to imagine that this would be another one of them.
Millie Gooch: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: I think it's like, it does make me think when I think about, you know, women's drinking culture, that there is, aside from, you know, like, bottomless brunches and all that kind of thing that you kind of touched on before. There's that sort of picture now of like, the like ‘wine mum’, kind of thing, but people are quite happy to make a joke out of it being like, you know, sneaking to the fridge for a Chardonnay in the middle of the afternoon because your kids are driving you mad. And that's kind of you. You get it to a point because it's kind of like I don't know, people being open about the fact that you know, parenting children is really hard. But also, do you think that just makes it more acceptable for people to kind of foster these unhealthy coping mechanisms? Like it seems to be such an acceptable thing in society, even when you're kind of portraying, not necessarily a healthy way to be drinking?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, again, like this kind of mummy wine culture was born out of like, a good place. Because it was when like, social, the kind of mummy wine culture on social media, because it was born when mums were starting kind of parenting content, and everything looked perfect. And you know, like, all your children were dressed up nicely and your house looked amazing. And then there was kind of like this rebellion against it of like, actually, this is what it's like to be a mum, here's my like, crayons up the wall. Here's me drinking wine at three o'clock. So it came from like a really good place. And actually, I really recommend is a platform called Love Sober run by two mums, which if you are a mum listening, like it's a great platform, they talk about all of these things. They taught me a lot on it. And it's very, that's kind of where it came from. It was supposed to be a really good positive thing of like, Hey, we're not perfect. This is how we're parenting.
Gemma Styles: Yeah.
Millie Gooch: Now it has just snowballed and snowballed. The alcohol industry have, you know, cottoned on to it. It's like ‘mummy juice’. It's, it's rolling and rolling, and it is becoming more dangerous. I think it was born out of a really good place. But it is getting to the point where it is being really, really pushed as a coping mechanism. And I wouldn't say it's the healthiest one.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, for sure. It's kind of, it brings to mind conversations and kind of, definitely, I think people are becoming more aware of alcohol as a coping mechanism. Because I mean, I can even just think of conversations I've had, where I or a friend or whoever has been upset about something, and we'll be talking about something be like, Oh, I need a drink. And then we'll say the conversation be like that, actually, that's not how we deal with our problems and kind of say it in kind of a jokey way, but sort of you catch yourself doing it. And it's so easy to do if like, something's upset you or I'll just go and get a drink, because you know, it might take the edge off or whatever. And, you know, once you realise you're doing it, it does feel… I mean, sometimes you just have a drink anyway, because you want one. Me speaking, obviously. But yeah, I think being aware that it is a coping mechanism, because I feel like when it it takes a while in your life sometimes to kind of get to know yourself well enough that you can recognise your own behaviour in that way. Like, I think especially when you're younger. And like at uni, for example, like when you were saying that your relationship with alcohol became quite different. You're kind of only just starting any of these things, and you're only just starting an adult life and you kind of you don't know what your coping mechanisms are going to be. So it can be can take a while to kind of get a handle on what you're doing and recognise it in yourself.
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I think as I always say like that, to me, that isn't necessarily a healthy way to drink, but there is like definitely a healthier way. And the whole point of like mindful drinking or sober curiosity is exactly what you said is to be aware of it. I was so unaware of it, I was so like mindlessly drinking. Whereas if you can catch yourself doing that, that's half the battle because the healthier way to drink is to drink because you're happy and you're celebrating and you love that glass of wine, you love the taste of it. You know, the bad unhealthy coping mechanism is to be like I'm so stressed. I want to drink and numb it out. Because we're teaching each other now you know, sit with your feelings, deal with it, sit with your feelings, but knocking back a glass of wine isn't sitting with your feelings because it's going to numb that and it's going to dampen that. So yeah, that's how you start making unhealthy coping mechanisms. And and like you said, If you catch yourself, that's that's half the battle of Hey, am I actually drinking this because I want this drink. Or am I drinking it because I'm trying to avoid feeling something else?
Gemma Styles: Yeah, it’s so true. So I've been reading in research coming up for this podcast. And there is a lot of research that says overall, people, but mostly young people around the world are drinking less particularly in cultures that have a very alcohol based social culture, which is not just me making things up, but things I've read. So countries like, like the UK, we definitely have drinking culture. Australia is a well known for it, but also countries that I didn't really know about, like Sweden and Canada who apparently have very similar drinking cultures to us. Across the board, it seems like young people in particular are drinking less, and I think I mean, there must be myriad reasons for this, but I read an interview that you did and it was such a lightbulb moment because I've never thought about it in this way, where you linked young people drinking less to smartphones.
Millie Gooch: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: And I was like, Oh my God, of course, like it's so true the way that things are different now compared to like when I went to uni, for example. And you know, for the benefit of everyone else who haven't read this interview, so what you're saying about smartphones is that now basically young people, you're surrounded by cameras and camera phones, and rather than it maybe just being like a blurry still photo of you an absolute mess, like when I went to uni, there can now be you know, HD quality, full video recordings on the internet within seconds of any of your drunken behaviour, which I was just kind of like, that's so true and so terrifying. And I'm not surprised that young people are reining themselves in a bit more. Do you think that's a good thing? We have such you know, such bad social media rap, but do you think it's holding people accountable in a good way?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, quite possibly. I mean, when, this is a topic that I would love to explore more because it hangover anxiety is kind of like coming to the forefront now. And I have kind of questioned well why has this like not always been a thing? Like, surely, we used to experience this, but not a lot of older people ever cite this as a reason that they stopped drinking a while back, and I started thinking about it, and like looking into it, and I kind of thought about my my drinking at uni. And that was, you know, we all had digital cameras, like just but they were very like grainy. And this is like, you'd probably smash them in your bag, but you would take them out and then get a few blurry pictures, it would be dark, and then the next day, someone would have to manually upload those to Facebook. So if you did wake up with a raging hangover, and you could say, actually, could everyone please just check those pictures, I don't want them up. Whereas when I started waking up when I was like, 25, 26, I was like, okay, someone's going to have snapped me, and I'm going to be on the Mail Online weeing on the street on the sidebar of shame. Like someone's gonna have uploaded a, you know, Instagram video of me falling off a table, and everyone's gonna have seen it. And there was all these like, and even like texting your ex, we've all done it. Like I imagine people 30 years ago, didn't get drunk and text their ex and then have really bad hangover anxiety about it the next day. So I do think yeah, it is probably holding people accountable. And I've seen a few similar stories that kind of say, like, smartphones are to blame, because everyone wants to look really polished in their Instagram pictures. And I don't think it's that, I don't think it's just about like, the way we want to appear and look, I think it's more, we're actually worried about the content that could go out there of us. So yeah, I do think it could be holding people accountable.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. I mean, that sounds right to me, I'm kind of trying to imagine and like, how this scenario would go because I feel like that was always the way anyway, wasn't it like, in terms of, you know, being at uni, or going on a night out or whatever, you kind of get ready at the beginning of the night, maybe like, take some pictures, like with your friends to be like, Oh, we all look nice, because we've just got ready, and nobody's hair’s gone flat yet. And it's like, it's all looking nice. And then you go out, and get blind drunk and not worry about it. And I feel like that, you know, would probably still be mainly the case now as in like, you take your Instagram pictures at the beginning of the night, and then crack on and forget about it. So I think you're right, I think it probably is more the like, documenting of behaviour. And it's so much easier to get a video now rather than just pictures.
Millie Gooch: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: I think you mentioned earlier, and I wanted to ask you about, I feel like there's been a big rise recently in kind of non alcoholic spirits and kind of like alcohol alternative drinks, which I have to say, as somebody who does drink, I have kind of looked at and thought, you know, well, if you don't want to drink, why do you need, like the kind of false version of it. And then I realised how hypocritical that was, because it's exactly the same conversation that I've had with people around so- I don't eat meat anymore. But I really enjoy, you know, an Impossible burger, like fake meat substitutes. And it's the same thing really, isn't it? Like, it's not necessarily that you don't enjoy the thing as to why you give it up… Do you kind of welcome that thing of like the, alcohol alternatives and like alcohol free spirits, or do you think that's needed?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, I always use the meat analogy, actually, when people ask me about them, the other ones I use are decaf coffee. And why is that in existence? Because people like coffee, they just don't want the anxiety that coffee sometimes brings. And the other one is like fake Christmas trees is like we still want to be part of the celebration. You still want to enjoy it but you just don't necessarily want all the mess and the stuff that comes with it.
Gemma Styles: That’s a good one.
Millie Gooch: So that is, yeah, but I use both of those and they and then people go Oh, yeah, okay, actually I get it. Those two normally work if you're ever stuck for one, but I mean, at the start for me, they were an absolute lifeline because I would go to a party, I could take like, I mean, there wasn't really that much around when I first stopped three years ago, there's been an absolute boom, but I could take like, at the time a crate of Becks Blue. And people would just kind of like, give it a side glance, but they wouldn't be like, oh, what are you drinking? And it just kind of like, made me feel part of it. And that you, you still want to have like a fun adult drink. And it can still be glamorous, and it can still be lovely. It just doesn't have to have the after effects. And I did like the taste of some alcohol. I did like, I liked beer, and I like spirits. So those are kind of like, I mean, they say fake drinks, but they're just drinks without the alcohol, removed. Again.
Gemma Styles: Exactly.
Millie Gooch: I really like them. Some people do find them triggering so they they do avoid them. But for me, they've been really helpful if I'm like at a wedding, and then I can raise a glass of non alcoholic Prosecco instead of being like, Ooh my water, then that that's really helpful. So for me, they're like a lifeline. If I'm on a night out, on a date, at least you can have like a sophisticated soft drink.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, it makes a lot of sense. I think. Yeah. As soon as you talk about it, and like rationalise it, compare it to something else, it makes total sense. But I have to say it was one of those things where I was like, Well, you know, having having a glass of not gin gin does not just make you want a glass of gin, but actually thinking even about myself, I'm like, does having a non meat burger make me want a burger? No, it doesn't at all, so it, it makes makes a lot of sense. Kind of how you're saying about like, you know, having a drink and raising a glass at a wedding, for example, kind of leads into part of the kind of societal expectations of like times when you would drink. And when I put questions out, for people to send in questions for the podcast for you. It was, you know, probably by far and away, the most common question was, you know, what do you say to people when they expect you to drink and you don't want to? Which I thought, we'll just put in this big main part of the podcast, because I'm sure there's a lot of different, a lot of different advice, but I think there seem to be like a range of the situations from kind of from- because you just don't want to drink and you don't want people to keep hassling you about it. Or because you're maybe like out with people from work and you just don't want to get into it at all, is that you know, a common, a common thing that people come to you for advice on?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, always. And I mean, I always say if people ask you as well, I have like a- I just read off how people ask me as well, if so many people ask me in a genuinely interested way, so I wouldn't ever want to like shut down a conversation and be like, that’s none of your business why I'm not drinking, because so many people are genuinely interested. And when I tell them I just say, actually it was making me feel really shit. I was really miserable. I was getting really bad, hangover anxiety. They're like, Oh, fair enough. That's great. I'm thinking about doing dry January. If someone asks me in like a really rude patronising way, it's like, oh, ha ha, how boring. I just don't even bother going into it. I, it's really hard at the beginning, when people are questioning your decision, and you're not strong enough in it yet. But it just does get easier. That's the only thing I would say is, even if you're not, like gonna not drink full time, but you're gonna start not drinking at more social occasions, it will still get easier once people get used to you not doing that. It's just at first everyone will try to peer pressure you. But how much I tell people about why I'm not drinking totally depends on like, how I'm asked the question.
Gemma Styles: Have you got any kind of stock responses for those, those kind of situations where people are like, oh, apart from you know, if you're quite open with the person, like you say you would talk about your anxiety… Would there be any kind of other blanket responses just as a very easy brush off for a work colleague, for example?
Millie Gooch: I mean, I always say like, at the at the beginning now people know, so they don't ask me, but at the beginning, I'd say oh, you know, I've got something really important in the morning that I need to do. People, that's one that they tend to not push on as much. Don't ever say antibiotics, because people would just say, Oh, you can drink on most antibiotics now. And don't say I'm driving because people will be like, Oh, you can just leave your car here. I'll bring you back in the morning. So I mean, even just I'm not drinking right now. I'm having a break. If someone asked me in a really rude way, and they say like, why aren't you drinking? I'll say well, why are you drinking and then just watch them have a think about that. And then you can just dart off quickly somewhere else.
Gemma Styles: [laughs] Just escape!
Millie Gooch: Just be like, bye! And and if someone says you know, like, oh, you're really boring. You say, Well, I don't need alcohol to have fun. So how does that make me boring? Like, it makes you more boring if you're saying you can only have fun when you're drinking. And then people are like, okay, yeah, and they think about it. But I think normally saying like you've got something going on in the morning is always a good one. And I would actually say book something in the morning, so that's a genuine thing. And also that will help keep you accountable if you're like, well I actually can't drink cos I've got to get up tomorrow because I've promised my friend that I will go for a walk with her at 7am. That's, that's like an extra help for you as well.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, that's so true. You know, it's like the double whammy of getting people off your back and keeping yourself on track, I guess. I've definitely used the antibiotics one before. It's a funny one, especially for, for a lot of women, I think because one of then the most common things is like people just assume you're pregnant. Which I, which again, is such a, like, a kind of invasion of privacy and sort of like speculating about things. But I think is the very fact that people need an excuse not to be drinking in the first place is so like, indicative of the way that we are. But yeah, I have definitely used the antibiotics one before, not because I was pregnant. But because it just seemed a bit easier than saying, actually, I've had a really bad stomach all week and I think I’ll feel really sick if I have a drink. [laughing] Like, it just you shouldn't need an excuse at all, but I think it is- I think it's useful to kind of have that discussion. You know, whether it's you know, me asking you for advice examples, or just having it in advance in your head and thinking, rather than getting caught off guard when someone says Why aren't you drinking? Know what you're going to tell them and just feel a bit more secure in your decision beforehand?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I think it's so interesting what you said about like, you shouldn't need an excuse it’s like if I said to you, why aren't you smoking? It really is obvious why you're not spanking because you've probably like given up, you don't smoke, it's bad for your health. You don't you don't need a reason why you're not smoking. Whereas when when you say why aren't you drinking? You do have to, in everyone else's eyes, have a valid reason.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, it's true. I have someone I know actually once once said to me who they, they weren't drinking on a night out. Not because they had an issue, but I think it actually genuinely was because they had something else in the morning. But said that, they'd figured out that the best thing to say to people was, oh, I don't drink anymore. Because that anymore implies that was previously a problem. And people go Oh, okay, sorry I asked, sorry I asked kind of thing. I think Yeah, coming up with your kind of ultimate get out line is, is probably a useful thing to have.
Millie Gooch: Yeah. And you can laugh about it, too. I always say let it's just safer for the two of us that we don't drink, because otherwise we'll end up on a five day bender, and you won't come home for a while. So you can always joke about it.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think, I think maybe making a laugh out of it maybe might make it easier in some cases. Saying that though, this is the thing, I don’t- when we’re saying Oh it can be funny and it can be really light hearted, and obviously if you’re maybe sober curious and it’s more, not like a huge thing for you but you just think it might be nice not to drink as much… that’s all well and good, however, alcoholism itself you know is a disease and is a very serious thing. And I don’t want to, you know, make light of that overall in the podcast. Do you think that the conversation we're having around alcohol at the moment is very distinct from a traditional conversation about alcoholism? Do you think that a lot of the people who we’re now talking about you know, going alcohol free, are alcoholics? Do you think that's a separate issue from people who just have problem drinking? Is that still the conversation that we're having around alcoholism?
Millie Gooch: I think the conversation is really changing. I think people are talking more now about kind of like problematic drinking and alcohol use disorders as kind of like a spectrum. So like, wherever you are, you might be like a grey area drinker, you might be a binge drinker. I think traditionally, we've always thought you're an alcoholic, or you're not. And now we're kind of talking about how maybe not using the term alcoholic, it’s not necessarily helpful. So in a lot of like, the medical literature, they use alcohol use disorder. And and because in that way, we kind of think, Oh, well, I can keep drinking, because I'm not rock bottom yet. I'm not one of those alcoholics. And you keep drinking and you keep drinking until your body becomes alcohol dependent. Whereas, that- so the previous conversation was, I can keep drinking, and I'll be fine. I'm not one of them. I'm not on a park bench. And now we're actually realising drinking problems come in all different shapes and sizes. You don't have to be that stereotypical rock bottom, park bench. And actually, those terms might not necessarily be helpful, because so many of us keep drinking and keep drinking. Because we say, Well, I'm not an alcoholic, so I'm fine. That we use it as a term to justify it all the time. Oh well I can keep drinking, I'm not an alcoholic. I'm not there yet. But you'll be there before you realise it if you keep drinking, keep drinking until your body- anyone in the world can become dependent on alcohol, if you drink enough of it. It's not these specific people are alcoholics and these people aren’t. I mean, that that's the kind of- it's a much wider conversation is kind of going on at the moment of what terms should we be using is are they actually helpful, or are they problematic? So I think the conversation is definitely changing that alcohol problems can come in all shapes and sizes.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I mean, it's a question that came to mind for me because- and obviously I won’t mention any names but, I have a friend and, one of their parents is an alcoholic. And has been for many years. And I know how difficult that is and how serious it is. And it just it somehow feels like a separate conversation to what we're having about, you know, like young women's drinking, for example. But do you think it is the case that a lot of people who start to have issues with their relationship with alcohol in maybe their 20s, for example, will then go on to have a more serious alcohol problem later? Or do you think it can kind of level out?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, it can level out and it can carry on and get worse, I think, like, really serious drinking problems, don't just start one day. And that's it, they start slowly, and then they creep up on you. And, and then that's it. So I think it's, you know, it's such a difficult conversation. I'm not necessarily the person to go into all of the specifics about it. But people are kind of talking about the fact now that we should be recognising that actually, you know, getting there before it gets that bad might actually be a really good thing.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, absolutely. I think it would be useful, or I don't know if it's even possible to generalise like this. But if people are listening and kind of wanting to take stock of their own relationship with their drinking, are there any kind of, not red flags, necessarily, but kind of markers that you would encourage people to sort of ponder on, that might indicate that you have more of a problematic relationship with alcohol?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I think probably thinking about like, the times that you're drinking, if you're drinking in the day, that's normally a bit of a red flag, if you're drinking a lot on your own at home, could be a bit of a red flag, again, thinking about the reasons for your drinking, are you drinking as a really unhealthy coping mechanism? I would say that they would probably be three quite key things to look out for.
Gemma Styles: Okay. Yeah, it's just yeah, it's just good to know. And kind of like, try and quantify some of those things sometimes. And one thing that I wanted to ask you about, because I feel like the biggest conversation that I've heard recently around alcohol has been about The Queen's Gambit. Have you watched it?
Millie Gooch: I have watched it. Yes. Great, great TV.
Gemma Styles: So I've seen so much conversation about this. And obviously, I won't, you know, give anything more away if people haven't seen it. However, you know, the main character has a bad relationship with alcohol and other substances. And I've seen like, really varied conversation around it from some people, on the one hand, saying, it's a really, you know, inaccurate depiction of an alcoholic. And, you know, well, she's still, you know, she's young, and she gets up and looks perfect on the outside and blah, blah, blah. And on the complete other hand, saying, No, actually, that's quite accurate for me. And not all people who have a problem with alcohol are, quote, unquote, alcoholics. And, you know, not everyone who has a problem with alcohol looks like an alcoholic, which seems to be exactly what you're saying, as well. Like, I just wanted to know if you had any thoughts on the show.
Millie Gooch: Yeah, exactly. I think like, as well as the word we've got, like an idea of what they look like. And, you know, I was very, very functioning. But inside, I was so miserable, and in this like, spiral of drinking. And I think I thought it was very good, accurate depiction of just, you know, how it can start quite small. And all of a sudden, you're relying on it more, and you're relying on it more, and you're relying on it more. I mean, I personally thought it was quite accurate, at least I thought it was a good reflection of probably how bad my drinking was getting, probably slightly worse. But I think it was a very good, like an analysis of how it can get that bad. And you're not even realising that you're relying on those things. And again, it was like how I was talking about social anxiety. I didn't have social anxiety before I started drinking. And then I would go out, and then I would drink and then everything, okay, well, now I can't go out unless I drink. And all of a sudden, that becomes something that you have to have all the time and you feel like you won't be as sparkly without it, you won't be as fun. You won't be a great chess player. And all of a sudden, it becomes something that you need, and it gets worse and worse and worse. And then you find Oh, actually, you're drinking here, and then you're drinking there. So I mean, I thought it was quite an accurate one. But I do totally see the feedback. It's one of the most complicated conversations in the sober community. But yeah.
Gemma Styles: I guess that's the the message overall, isn't it really like it? You don't have to be in a rock bottom place to feel like your drinking’s out of control.
Millie Gooch: Yeah. And I mean, like I always say, people can define themselves however they want. I don't I don't care what labels people want to use. The only thing that I want to say is exactly that, is that you don't have to wait until it gets like that bad. It'd be in the same way that if you're a smoker, you don't have to wait until you know one of your lung collapses. You can stop smoking, if you think it's detrimental to your health and your well being. So you don't have to wait until it gets to that point. And I think if we view it more like we do smoking, that would be really helpful for all of us.
Q&A
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Gemma Styles: Every week, my guest and I will be answering your questions and this week, the first one comes in from Sarah, who asks,
Is it possible to be part time sober? Drinking alcohol seriously affects my mental health. But I'd still like to enjoy its benefits from time to time. Is it possible to do both? Or do you have to be completely teetotal to see real improvements in your wellbeing?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, I think a sober curious attitude is much better than a mindless binge drinking attitude. So you're definitely going to get some of the benefits, there is a really good book actually called Drink? by Professor Nutt, who was the government's ex chief drug advisor, but he also owns a wine bar. So he talks very, like matter of factly, about alcohol. And the whole book is basically how you can get the most of the benefits without, you know, causing any damage to- well not any damage, as little damage as possible. I think, again, like you have to do what works for you, if you think you can totally, like do that with your relationship with alcohol. I find like moderation, just personally really exhausting. So being like, Oh, I'm only gonna drink at this wedding. And I'm only going to have two and then I'm only going to drink on Fridays. And I'll only drink spirits, kind of like having to put all those rules on myself. And I always say like moderating alcohol is not like moderating biscuits. So alcohol literally affects your prefrontal cortex, which is the part of your brain that makes rational decisions. So even if you say, I'm only going to have two, when you have two, your brain isn't working the same way that it was two drinks ago. So your willpower and your resolve are like, not there anymore. So I personally find moderation quite hard. And for me, it's been more freeing just to be like, alcohol is off the table. Now, that's it done. But if you can make it work for you, like make it work for you, as long as it's a healthier way of drinking, that I think is what's most important.
Gemma Styles: I think there's an interesting kind of wording in Sarah's question as well in terms of like, enjoy the benefits of alcohol from time to time. Because now after we've just sat her for ages and talked about alcohol, I'm thinking like, what are the benefits of alcohol? Because I kind of I like I get it to a point like, now I'm like, oh, maybe she actually just enjoys-
Millie Gooch: I mean, like, there's no physical benefits like, scientifically, there are no physical benefits.
Gemma Styles: Yeah. Interesting one. Thanks for that question, Sarah. Very different tack. So next question is from Becky, who says,
I grew up in a religious home, and only recently in my 30s began letting go of the stigma and enjoying alcohol. I feel a little like Benjamin Button going through life backwards. Do you ever encounter others who also feel a bit triggered by the idea of alcohol free living?
Yeah, I think this is again, what we were talking about back at the start about seeing it as a restriction and seeing it as like removing something from your life, rather than actually you taking it out and it's great, and you can have all this amazing stuff. So I mean, I get that all the time, I get the push back to alcohol free living all the time, I know that people can see it as like a restriction and, and it's like a really negative thing. And that's like totally fine. Because like I said, I'm not here to kind of like change anyone's, you know, outlook on their drinking habits. I just want to show people that actually you can be sober, you can have fun, you can have all these great, amazing things. And alcohol doesn't have to be the default for celebration, for commiseration. Um, yeah. I don't know if that really answers the question.
Gemma Styles: I thought I mean, I think it's an interesting question, which is why I wanted to ask it, because it's not a perspective that I've really come across before either, in terms of, you know, maybe associating, associating being alcohol free with the fact that other people have told you, you're not allowed to do something, which I imagine is, you know, a very mind- a different mindset to come at it from I feel like, Becky, if you were enjoying the way that you were living and you don't feel like you have issues with it, then I would say, you know, that's fine. But also if you don't actually want to drink but the reason that you don't want to drink is kind of tied to this restrictive feeling, then yeah, I think you know, Millie what you've said about reframing it as a benefits that you get from not drinking rather than it being an oppressive kind of thing.
Millie Gooch: Yeah. And I would also say as well, there is a whole alcohol industry out there that is trying to get you to drink and they are trying every tactic under the book. They are marketing to you, especially as a woman, so it's actually quite rebellious to go against that, and to not go with the cultural norm of getting completely out of it. I mean, if you're having like a negative relationship with alcohol, the alcohol industry is getting money from that they're getting money from you being sad and potentially doing damage to yourself. So you can actually rebel about that if you want to think that you want to be more free, and you don't want people telling you what to do, because we think we have a choice about drinking our alcohol but it’s so around us everywhere, it permeates every part of our life that actually it's quite a radical choice to decide not to drink.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, I think, I think yeah, this particular question is a lot of like, it really comes down to like the personal choice element. And I think maybe without without knowing more of the particular circumstances, I don't know whether we can have any more specific, more specific answer, but I hope, I hope that that was a good enough answer for Becky. Next question is from Jean. And I'm going to read more of the intro to her questions as well because I think it helps it make sense. So Jean emailed and said,
I was talking to a sober friend about how experiencing my first year without alcohol during the pandemic has oddly proved a bit of a safety bubble for me. I haven't been put in social situations where I'm pressured to drink. I haven't been out dating. I also live alone, so I haven't had roommates that were drinking while in lockdown. So I still have many sober firsts to experience.
And then she says,
My question for Millie would be, do you have any advice about managing expectations when navigating sober firsts? I love how much more present I feel now I don't drink but I get anxious thinking about all the things I've yet to experience booze free.
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, I would say you you've put yourself in such good standing by doing this now, if you can get through a pandemic sober, you can definitely get through a brunch, like I'm telling you that for a fact. But I would say like don't put any pressure on yourself. When I first stopped drinking, I would say no to things that I really didn't want to go to. Um, but I would, I got a lot pickier as well. So I would just kind of say like, Oh, I will only go here if there's like a really good selection of alcohol free drinks. And if I'm gonna enjoy the music. I wouldn't put any set times on things. So I just I'm going to come for an hour. If I enjoy myself, I'll stay if I don't enjoy myself, I'll leave. And I think the one thing you realise is that alcohol can make a crap party good. But a good party is a good party without alcohol. That's, that's like the difference. So you will go to things and some will be awful, and you will want to leave, and some you will go to and they will be amazing. And you will love it. And you will be like this is the best decision I've ever made. And when you wake up the next day and you’re hangover, free and everyone else is suffering, you will feel really glad that you made that choice. So I would just say like, don't be too hard on yourself. If you go out and you don't have a good time. Don't say okay, well, every time is going to be rubbish now that I don't drink, like you will go out and there will be times that you enjoy yourself. So don't put like too much pressure on yourself having a good time. Just go if you're not enjoying it, then you can always leave.
Gemma Styles: I think that's good advice, it’s a good way to look at it as well. Exactly exactly what you say, you know, you’ve got, you can maybe fix a bad party with alcohol…? But the good parties will still be good.
Millie Gooch: Yeah, agreed.
Gemma Styles: So our last question is from Rachel, who says,
I don't drink a tonne, and often find it hard to communicate to people why I don't enjoy getting drunk. I'm Australian, so drinking culture is pretty strong. And although I'm lucky to not be surrounded by people who peer pressure me, I'd love to better articulate my choices. In your experience, what have been the most noticeable benefits to sobriety? And how do you walk the line of sharing those with others without them feeling like you're shaming them for their choices?
Millie Gooch: Yeah, I mean, this is so cliche, but there isn't one part of my life that hasn't benefited from not drinking, whether that's like physical health, mental health, finances, friendships, relationships, like everything is better. And I honestly mean that. In terms of like sharing the benefits, I just think you have to like lead by example. There's a particular thing with alcohol where if you start talking about how great your life is without it, people will throw the word preachy at you, that's just like something that you will probably get. So I just tend to not even speak about it. I speak about it all the time online and people will come to me if they want to, if they don't want to, that's absolutely fine. But like in social circles, I don't speak about it with like friends and family. If they come and ask me that's like, totally fair enough. Like, I will find if I'm on a hen do. At the very start, I will be like the boring one, the one that like, you know, people are like, Why isn't she drinking and by the end about five people have approached me to ask like, how they can be a non drinker because there's so hangover from the weekend of like hen dos. So I would just say lead by example, show people that you can have a great time and people will take notice of that and be like Oh she's got loads of energy, like what's her secret? So that you can't you can't ever convert anyone so don't even try. It's a waste of your own energy. But you will naturally see that if you're just living this great sober life, people will start to gravitate towards that and maybe ask you how you do it.
Gemma Styles: That's really nice. And I think I mean, what Rachel’s saying at the end, as well of, you know, how do you not make other people feel like you're shaming them for drinking? I think as you say, you know, if you're not walking into a room full of people drinking and going, I don't drink, you know! And kind of making it, making it a judgement call. I don't know. It's a weird one, I guess that will come from the people you're surrounded by as well. But like, for example, we've been sitting here having a conversation for like, an hour about how you don't drink and drinking is bad for you. I drink and I don't feel particularly like, shamed by you around this conversation.
Millie Gooch: [laughing] I’m not trying to shame you!
Gemma Styles: Exactly. But I think that's, you know, was one of the first things you said, it doesn't necessarily have to be about changing other people's choices or trying to be prescriptive to people. It's giving everyone the information so that they can make you know, the most informed choices about their own behaviour, I think is the main takeaway.
Millie Gooch: Yeah. I mean, how do you treat it? I'm asking you a question. How do you treat it with like being vegan? Do you you don't walk into a room go. Hi, everyone. I'm vegan now!
Gemma Styles: So I'm vegetarian.
Millie Gooch: Veggie, then.
Gemma Styles: Yeah, exactly. Well, yeah, exactly. But then, yeah, no, it was, yeah, it's true. It's funny, isn't it? I keep coming back to it the same as so many different ways that you can compare it to kind of food choices, which now I'm like, well, it's a drink. So that kind of makes sense. But like, I don't know, I always think of when you talk about conversations about being alcohol free, I think about alcohol as a drug rather than as a beverage. [both laugh] If you know what I mean, so I think it is, yeah, it's a fun, it's a funny conversation to have. But yeah, I think is kind of the same thing. Like, you don't necessarily walk around, like, all the time spouting about things that you don't do, trying to get other people to do them.
Millie Gooch: Yeah.
Gemma Styles: And yeah, I think I think what you were saying about, you know, how, you know, people people can look at these conversations and say, Oh, well, you know, it's preachy, or it's telling me to do this or telling me to do that, I, I rarely think that that is what anybody is doing when they're having these conversations. Like there will always be people who think that their way is the right way and think everyone should do what they do. But honestly, I think that's that's the beauty of like, a lot of social media and the the different communities that you can kind of form is you can share information about what you're doing and invite people to join you without badgering people or bullying people to do the same thing as you.
Millie Gooch: Yeah. I talk about it freely on my page because I think well you followed me, you're here, you know what you're in for. I don't go into people's inboxes and say, Uh I think you need to stop drinking, like that isn’t that, if you want to come and you want to listen, you want to hear about the benefits great. If you don't, I'm not gonna sit there with you like at boozy brunch and lecture you about your drinking that that's not why I'm here.
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Gemma Styles: Remember, if you want to get in touch with us or have any questions for future episodes, email me at goodinfluencepod@gmail.com.
recommendations
Gemma Styles: Before you go, I've got three things that I ask of every guest. And that's if listeners want to find out more about what we've been talking about. Could you please give us something to read, something to listen to and something to watch?
Millie Gooch: Yes. Something to read. I think my publisher would tell me off if I didn't plug my own book at this point. So, The Sober Girl Society Handbook.
Gemma Styles: Plug away!
Millie Gooch: [laughing] And actually in it, I've got a reading resource of like, amazing quit-lit books that have helped me so if you read my book, you can see all of those as well. Something to listen to. I mean, if you like a podcast, which I'm assuming you do, because you're here, there are some great just alcohol specific podcasts so Sober Curious, Love Sober, Seltzer Squad, three that are amazing and have really helped me. And then things to watch. There's actually a really good BBC documentary called Hayley Goes Sober. Which one of my friends Laurie is actually on talking about her journey. And I think it's really good for anyone who's kind of like sober curious and wants to see it from like a really objective point of view. I think it's a very good documentary.
Outro
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Gemma Styles: Thank you for listening to Good Influence and thank you, Millie, for joining me. If you've enjoyed the episode, please take a minute to subscribe to the podcast on Global Player or wherever you're listening. And if you're feeling extra generous rate and review as well. It's really appreciated and helps other people find the podcast. See you next week!